Chapter 39-2 Chemical Reactions

[UndeadSweeper]

Ha!!! I thought you meant primers for us to follow Redshirt's science journal-worthy posts.

I saw the word primer, and thought he meant that the red shirts on the show need a new coat of paint since not enough of them are dying.

[scbubba]

So, a question here:

What, if everyone turns towards the shotgun - whatever type from sawed-off over double-barrel to pump-action or even combat shotgun ... Wouldn't it be kind of easy to "create" your own ammo easily? I bet there are plenty of handbooks available in any hunters' equipment store (if not any other gun-shop as well). And creating the blowing agent to propell the flechettes/ shells/ shot-charges should not be too much of an issue ... Ok. Shotguns means short-range combat ... And Shotguns also means: Behemoths and Little Ones (and maybe some more special zombs) are not killed easily; but for the average biter shotguns should do the job ...

So, you gun experts: What is your opinion about this idea?

Best wishes!
Liam

Shotguns would definitely be a decent choice for normal biters. They seem very, well, fragile compared to the tuff skinned ones. Shotguns provide a lot of improvisational opportunities for projectiles. You still need the propellant (gunpowder, black powder) and an ignition source (primer, percussion cap) so you would still end up being supply constrained on those in the end.

As Grognaurd pointed out, it's an issue of getting supplies and adapting to the situation. For high velocity projectiles, its a matter of storing a decent amount of energy in something and then releasing it in a near instantaneous manner. That release (often an explosion of some sort) transfers a large part of the energy into the movement of the projectile. If that's channeled (like in a barrel), then the speed of the projectile can be maximized and directed.

The key piece though, is getting that stored energy in the first place. For guns, the source of stored energy has been gunpowder/blackpowder. For Datu's Mata-gun, the stored energy is compressed air. For internal combustion vehicles, the energy is stored in gasoline of diesel fuel. Some of those things are well beyond the capability of Team Human to create at the moment (black powder, diesel, gasoline). And then the process of storing energy as highly compressed air requires converting some other stored energy form like diesel or electricity to run the compressor. So we are back to an exhaustible supply of stored energy.

Face it, without much in the way of industrial capability, most everything that isn't human/animal/gravity/wind powered is gonna run out or fail. Steam power is a possibility but remember that it took switching from wood to coal to make that a truly viable source of energy.

What's the point here? Team Human will either need to find some damn big stores of ammo and fuel soon or switch to some other types of offensive/defensive weaponry. Either of which could be used to great effect in the hands os a storyteller like Kc....

[Unit]

So, a question here:

What, if everyone turns towards the shotgun - whatever type from sawed-off over double-barrel to pump-action or even combat shotgun ... Wouldn't it be kind of easy to "create" your own ammo easily? I bet there are plenty of handbooks available in any hunters' equipment store (if not any other gun-shop as well). And creating the blowing agent to propell the flechettes/ shells/ shot-charges should not be too much of an issue ... Ok. Shotguns means short-range combat ... And Shotguns also means: Behemoths and Little Ones (and maybe some more special zombs) are not killed easily; but for the average biter shotguns should do the job ...

So, you gun experts: What is your opinion about this idea?

Best wishes!
Liam

Here is an awesome article I remembered reading a while back about groups in Africa creating their own shotguns and shotgun shells and using caps from kids cap guns as the primer. In reality you can use anything that makes a spark as a primer. Works good enough for a single or double barrel type shotgun, but I don't think I would trust it in anything where the ammo is 'moving' like a semiauto or pump gun.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...towers-africa/

With that kind of a setup you have one or two shots to get it right and take out the biter before you are screwed. And the range like you mentioned is limited. This would be a decent option of last resort for every citizen to have in their house or for inside the walls in case they are ever breached but that is probably it I would think.

[7oddisdead]

We are the hive, eh bubba etal

Speaking of hive. All through out history humans have thought ants kick ass. How cool would it be to have an ant army? Achilles was a kick ass warrior in an of himself, but he led the Myrmidons. They were the greatest Warrior people because they are descended from ants. Even the name is ant people or ant nest.

So, my point on a Friday is to reinforce we are the hive.

*wwwwiiiiiinnnkkkk*

[Footbutt]

okay, so slight COMBOBREAKER.... (if i'm using that in context)

going back to the Tanya and Saul being 'infected'...
with all of the medical diagnostics/equipment that they have at the Colony/Dunbar/Tanya's Morgue, what is the likelihood of the Research Team going back to the Hospital for a restock/supply run/use of equipment needs?
i still feel the Hospital will have a role in the coming chapters. if it isn't TOWTM's base-o-operations, is it still in use?

[Cabbage Patch]

Here's my 2¢ worth on some of the weapons and ammo related questions.

It's important to realize that our heroes don't need major amounts of ammo; one lucky find could easily provide them with everything they need for years to come. Consider that, at most, the humans can field 1) 2 50 caliber machineguns, 2) 1 Minigun, 3) 1-2 SAWs, 4) 10-15 scoped rifles (the old Guardians weapons) and 5) maybe 50 M-16s. Key calibers are 50 cal, 7.62mm, 5.56mm, and 9mm for military/police pistols and submachineguns. 100,000 rounds of ammo would refill their ammo bunkers to overflowing.

I've seen one Army cargo truck, half-loaded, deliver 500,000 rounds of mixed ammo to a range; fully loaded that one truck could have carried over a million rounds in it. My old company's ammo bunker had over 1 million rounds of small arms in it, and as a bonus it also had land mines, hand grenades, C-4 and anti-tank rockets in it. A single cargo container, enroute to Iraq of Afghanistan through an LA port could have 10 million rounds of ammo in it.

...So the military locations. Other than the base that Michael mentioned (Navy base, right) and the National Guard base (which has long since been empties), we don't know the state of any other potential military supply locations. I'm guessing that Michael and Co haven't made a visit to any of these military locations in Season 4 but I wonder what they might find if they did...

There is a lot of potential for scavanging for ammo around LA. Among military bases there is the Long Beach Navy Base (which exists only in the WA Universe, the real one closed in the 90s), there is the large National Guard base at Los Alamitos and there are at least a dozen armories like the one in Bell. Further afield there are major Marine Bases at Twentynine Palms and Camp Pendelton, major navy installations all around San Diego and a half-dozen military air bases. There are also major container ports at San Pedro and Long Beach.

...As for access to reloading supplies, powder might be the easiest of the materials to come up with. Brass could be in decent supply depending on how much of their own they have saved. The primers are going to be the kicker there. During this year's ammo shortage, primers were one of the 1st reloading materials that I saw go into short supply. And given Cali's general low ownership of firearms (compared to most of the rest of the US) I would think that the general availability of primers would be really low in May 2009 in LA....

Let's not forget the problem of getting lead for bullets. You can make bullets out of brass or steel, but it's a lot harder than doing so from lead. These days lead isn't used for much except for making bullets, and over the last ten years most of the US lead smelting foundaries closed (the last one in the US closed just last month). For years most of the lead used for making commercial ammo has been imported from China. Once the stocks on store shelves is gone, the supply is gone.

...To the best of my knowledge, the US military doesn't do much if any reloading (Cabbage Patch, any info on this?) so I would think that there wouldn't be a supply of primers for any caliber available at any of the military locations...

As far as I know the US Military doesn't do any re-loading. Spent brass is shipped back to the ammo plants, where it is melted down and recast into new shell casings.

...Here is an awesome article I remembered reading a while back about groups in Africa creating their own shotguns and shotgun shells and using caps from kids cap guns as the primer. In reality you can use anything that makes a spark as a primer. Works good enough for a single or double barrel type shotgun, but I don't think I would trust it in anything where the ammo is 'moving' like a semiauto or pump gun...

It's amazing what a skilled craftsman can do! In places like Afghanistan and the Philippines there are people who can build you a workable copy of a Lee-Enfield rifle or a Colt 45 Automatic out of scrap metal, using just hand tools, and without electricity. The guns they make aren't pretty, they are heavier than the originals and I would be nervous about firing one myself, but they work. Given all of his advantages, Datu could probably build even better weapons if they were needed.

[Witch_Doctor]

okay, so slight COMBOBREAKER.... (if i'm using that in context)

going back to the Tanya and Saul being 'infected'...
with all of the medical diagnostics/equipment that they have at the Colony/Dunbar/Tanya's Morgue, what is the likelihood of the Research Team going back to the Hospital for a restock/supply run/use of equipment needs?
i still feel the Hospital will have a role in the coming chapters. if it isn't TOWTM's base-o-operations, is it still in use?

I wouldn't be surprised if they already have been to some hospital or another. The Colony's hospital is a converted office building but the sound effects indicate that they have some sophisticated equipment. But, yeah, I, too, seriously doubt that we've seen the last of the hospital. Riley told Tanya about the Cain Mental Hospital. Of the four people who saw TOWTM there, only two are alive and they are both together, Riley and Burt. The 'ah ha' moment might come from a revelation from the journal accounts or Tanya's recollection. I can't wait to see how this plays out.

She might send someone there to retrieve more antibiotics (if they are still potent).

[scbubba]

Here's my 2¢ worth on some of the weapons and ammo related questions.

It's important to realize that our heroes don't need major amounts of ammo; one lucky find could easily provide them with everything they need for years to come. Consider that, at most, the humans can field 1) 2 50 caliber machineguns, 2) 1 Minigun, 3) 1-2 SAWs, 4) 10-15 scoped rifles (the old Guardians weapons) and 5) maybe 50 M-16s. Key calibers are 50 cal, 7.62mm, 5.56mm, and 9mm for military/police pistols and submachineguns. 100,000 rounds of ammo would refill their ammo bunkers to overflowing.

I've seen one Army cargo truck, half-loaded, deliver 500,000 rounds of mixed ammo to a range; fully loaded that one truck could have carried over a million rounds in it. My old company's ammo bunker had over 1 million rounds of small arms in it, and as a bonus it also had land mines, hand grenades, C-4 and anti-tank rockets in it. A single cargo container, enroute to Iraq of Afghanistan through an LA port could have 10 million rounds of ammo in it.

Damn fine point about the quantity of ammo they might need and might be able to find. If everybody on the Colony/Dunbar Team were to fire at will in a firefight, I'm guessing the number of rounds used would be a few thousand (add another thousand for extra minigun action.)

There is a lot of potential for scavanging for ammo around LA. Among military bases there is the Long Beach Navy Base (which exists only in the WA Universe, the real one closed in the 90s), there is the large National Guard base at Los Alamitos and there are at least a dozen armories like the one in Bell. Further afield there are major Marine Bases at Twentynine Palms and Camp Pendelton, major navy installations all around San Diego and a half-dozen military air bases. There are also major container ports at San Pedro and Long Beach.

I didn't realize how many different bases/facilities were in the greater LA area. That's quite a bit of scavenging fodder. Thanks for the info.

Let's not forget the problem of getting lead for bullets. You can make bullets out of brass or steel, but it's a lot harder than doing so from lead. These days lead isn't used for much except for making bullets, and over the last ten years most of the US lead smelting foundaries closed (the last one in the US closed just last month). For years most of the lead used for making commercial ammo has been imported from China. Once the stocks on store shelves is gone, the supply is gone.

As far as I know the US Military doesn't do any re-loading. Spent brass is shipped back to the ammo plants, where it is melted down and recast into new shell casings.

Yeah, the lead would be hard to come by and is the easiest to cast reliably into bullets. Other available metals could be used but would require more time/energy to cast properly and the harder ones would eat the hell out of the barrels in short order.

So, short of finding a couple of bunkers, conventional firearms are probably going to play less of a role in general. Improvised projectile launchers, like the Mata-gun, would be needed sooner rather than later.

It's amazing what a skilled craftsman can do! In places like Afghanistan and the Philippines there are people who can build you a workable copy of a Lee-Enfield rifle or a Colt 45 Automatic out of scrap metal, using just hand tools, and without electricity. The guns they make aren't pretty, they are heavier than the originals and I would be nervous about firing one myself, but they work. Given all of his advantages, Datu could probably build even better weapons if they were needed.[/QUOTE]

Long Live King Datu, the Resourceful!

[Red Shirt]

Redshirt, they still will need primers. I do not know how universal those are or if there is a standard big rifle primer.

Right, of course. I just did some quick research and discovered that they do seem to be standardized though. One lucky find of a box would go a long way.

love the sgu, that piece on ppmo's was really interesting....shit I'd love to get a novella bros take on whats happening in this story. People think WE post over-the-top craziness...

I get the feeling that there's a possibility that Bob just might be a fan. Having one of the fan podcasts contact him/them might be a good idea.

I wouldn't be surprised if they already have been to some hospital or another. The Colony's hospital is a converted office building but the sound effects indicate that they have some sophisticated equipment. But, yeah, I, too, seriously doubt that we've seen the last of the hospital. Riley told Tanya about the Cain Mental Hospital. Of the four people who saw TOWTM there, only two are alive and they are both together, Riley and Burt. The 'ah ha' moment might come from a revelation from the journal accounts or Tanya's recollection. I can't wait to see how this plays out.

She might send someone there to retrieve more antibiotics (if they are still potent).

I think it is more probable that they have spent their time raiding local clinics and urgent care centers. To hear Riley's second hand description of the first visit and the run to get the chopper in the show... well, to borrow a term from WWZ, the hospital is a dangerous "White Zone."
The shelf life of antibiotics and other medicines presents a whole new issue of its own... One year into the apocalypse and antibiotics are probably starting to expire. Pharmaceuticals will be following suit soon. The problem is with them, they don't just lose potency. The molecule chain can break down into other things that could prove harmful, even fatal to take.

Let's not forget the problem of getting lead for bullets. You can make bullets out of brass or steel, but it's a lot harder than doing so from lead. These days lead isn't used for much except for making bullets, and over the last ten years most of the US lead smelting foundaries closed (the last one in the US closed just last month). For years most of the lead used for making commercial ammo has been imported from China. Once the stocks on store shelves is gone, the supply is gone.

Easier than you think... some re-loaders have been using the lead from tire balancing wheel weights. I read an article ages ago about it and it said that the quality of the lead is remarkable, given the source. Some regions have "gone dry" of wheel weights due to the higher population of shooters and re-loaders, but that shouldn't be an issue in LA. Just go out to any of the the freeways and have at it. While using this lead does present some unique, though small complications, it is better than having none. Here's a more recent article.

I think it might be worth noting here is the ammo compatibility of what they have on hand:

• The M16 and the M249 both use the NATO standard 5.56x45 round which is for all intents and purposes the same cartridge as the Remington .223. One tiny exception is that for the 249 is that it also need ammo links. It is possible to relink belts with "raw" ammo, but that is very tedious.
• The M60, M240 (should they find any) and the M134 minigun all use the 7.62x51 NATO round which is equivalent to the .308 Winchester. For all three of these, the same issue with linked ammo holds true.
• The M9 Beretta and the HK MP5 both use the 9mm NATO round, the 9×19mm Parabellum.

Although military supply dumps are probably their best bet, they aren't strictly limited to them. If they come across another Locked 'n' Loaded that hasn't been knocked over yet, they are likely to find ammo compatible with their military firearms.

[Unit]

The other factor to consider in the debate over ammo is the time period and what groups have already been ransacking potential ammo locations.

We have the colony that was doing scavenging missions on a regular schedule. With CJ's resources like the swat van full of weapons and ammo we know she must have hit police stations already, and I imagine they must have hit a lot more potential caches as much as they were looking and as creative as she was about being prepared and finding supplies.

You have Michael and the tower out scavenging supplies, much of which went down with the ship when it fell.

You have scratch and the prisoner crew scavenging as well. We know they cleared out most of Locked and Loaded and the rest of the vault at the military base. I am sure they hit most of the other gun shops and bases in the area as well.

We don't know if there are any other groups that were scavenging as well. They may have survived and we just haven't met them yet or they may have been wiped out already but either way any supplies they gathered would no longer be in there original expected locations.

And a lot of time has passed since Z-day. If we are thinking realistically, any military base or firearms shop is likely I be ransacked already at this point.