Chapter 43-3: The Darkness Ahead

[scbubba]

Hi all. Awesome stuff up there @Red Shirt!

Some key things that stood out to me on initial listening to this episode:

- Datu's "taking a backseat" experience
I've heard lots of talk about out of body experiences from many different sources (drugs, occult, near-death experience, schizophrenia) so the concept of watching oneself as if from a distance or from outside of your control isn't new by any means. The thing, of course, for Datu and probably the zombies in general is what is the cause and who/what "takes over". Meaning, is there a separate consciousness inside Datu's head that has control or is it a lower level "reptillian brain" that has pushed his conscious mind to the back? At this point, I'm leaning towards the lower level instinctual parts of the brain and nervous system are what's taking over. They are probably getting help from the zombie agent working on the brain somehow.

Taking into account that I'm not in the medical field whatsoever and I'm willing to extend a suspension of disbelief pretty far, I'm thinking that there could be some sort of thing, call it the agent, that could enter the human blood stream and reach a certain part of the body - say the brain - and get to work messing with it. I don't have a lot of knowledge on how the brain does what it does but I'm wondering if there were some sort of way to mess with the connection in the brain or the communications between parts of the brain so that the rational/conscious part of the brain could be effectively cutoff from the rest and leave the instinctual/"reptillian" portion in control 24/7? Well, even if there isn't a definitive way for this to occur, it seems like it might be in the realm of possibility for a sci-fi sort of tale....

The "smart ones" have been able to maintain some of the conscious connection and can inform and/or countermand the animal brain at times. The level of intelligence or will of the person before turning may dictate how much control of influence the higher brain has after turning ("the smarter you are in life....")

- Symbols transferring meaning
Following the brain re-wiring idea above, it might be possible to trigger the basic reward centers of the base brain with symbols that had some form of instinctual or universal meaning. In the book "Constructing a Language: A Usage-Based Theory on Language Acquisition", Michael Tomasello talks about the differences between human and animal basic communication (see it here)

To oversimplify, animal signals are aimed at the behavior and motivational states of others, whereas human symbols are aimed at the attentional and mental states of others.

Tomasello goes on to discuss how human linguistically communication is learned via different social and cultural methods. Animals rely on this type of "learning" less and therefore do not develop much learned communication as a species - some individuals or small social groups can/do learn communications in some animals. Animals, as a whole, have more "known" signals than learned signals. Given the humans' abilities to create ad understand visual symbols, the regression to a more basic function in the brain may trigger a much higher sensitivity to a set of "known" vs "learned" symbols.
I'll need to go deeper in the Tomasello book to see if he develops this idea further though....

- Tunnel(s)
Underground population of zombies! Cool. But do they live down there? Do they have a vast warren of tunnels and caves under LA? Or is this one of only a few places that has a tunnel entrance and the zombies are all outside LA somewhere using a few entry points like this one? Does it lead to the arena which is probably still mostly intact at ground level or below ground?

Not sure of the answers but I bet we find out in the near (not near enough!) future. Regarding the dirt from the excavation, if there is some really big underground place(s) that is naturally occurring, the dirt could have been deposited there. Ot if the tunnel(s) end outside LA somewhere, the dirt could have been put on that end - far away from the eyes of Team Human...

In general, I'm envisioning a "safe house" network for the zombies where there are several of these places like the church that have tunnel entries. It allows singles and small groups to get about more freely in LA without being noticed as much. Recall that some of the biggest "defeats" that Ink's army has had were when they were gathered in large numbers (arena, attacking the Colony). Ink isn't stupid as we have seen.

- Cain Hospital and Treehemoth
We all saw something ominous coming when Saul had to leave so much equipment at Cain because of the appearance of the Treehemoth. So, back to Cain we will be going. But there is a big baddie there! And that might work out in their favor... Other folks have said it before in this thread - Behemoths and regulars don't usually hang out together. And Behemoths have a different "trigger" to attack and go beserk. And they don't grasp some basic concepts (in general) like perhaps stairs. So if Tanya, Lizzie, et al can get up a couple of floors then the sounds may not be so bad (i.e., not reach the outside) and if they can sneak in past Treehemoth, then they could have a good ward against the random zombie scouting party (or even against Scratch?)

- The answering machine
I thought it was very interesting that we are told about leaving a message on the answering machine when Tanya switches to the landline. This takes the idea of unsecured radios off the table for someone learning about Lizzie's situation. The attempt to communicate over the police radio could have alerted Burt and Riley. With the Colony emptying out, the question is who all listens to the message and now knows? Does Scratch come across it as she scouts the Colony for intel on Pegs? Does Pegs find it when before she flies the helo out of the Colony and decide that plans need to change (thus getting her back in the mix with the Tower crew and bringing Scratch back into play for Burt and Riley)? Hmmmm.....

Can't wait to see/hear Chapter 44!!!!

[Hoff4D]

...In general, I'm envisioning a "safe house" network for the zombies where there are several of these places like the church that have tunnel entries. It allows singles and small groups to get about more freely in LA without being noticed as much. Recall that some of the biggest "defeats" that Ink's army has had were when they were gathered in large numbers (arena, attacking the Colony). Ink isn't stupid as we have seen....

Even after months of hiatus from the forums, I can't rep you! DAMN! Great stuff with the animal linguistics vs human. Would rep if I could.

Ok, so this underground safe house idea, I had kind of "poo-pooed" it up until I read your response. I dont know why, but it just kinda hit me....How long ago did we start saying "There seems to be less of them now-a-days". They've taken to the tunnels and only come out when on 'attack the humans' mission, or some other 'get me drugs to test people' mission from Ink. I'm still not sure that THATS what the tunnel is for, but I feel its more substantiated now taking into account the length of time since we noticed their decreased population...and the lack of them on our trail cams. I mean, we see tons of 'lone wolfs' and decide they aren't worth paying any mind, when in reality that's what Ink WANTS us to do, and they're Recon guys....


+1 for Treehemoth as well.

Also....Pegs hears the answering machine, and this is how we get out of Cain? Last minute rescue on the roof by Pegs as our Delivery team runs up the stairs from whatever Treehemoth couldn't handle, Treehemoth himself....or scratch?

[UndeadSweeper]

Even after months of hiatus from the forums, I can't rep you! DAMN! Great stuff with the animal linguistics vs human. Would rep if I could.

Ok, so this underground safe house idea, I had kind of "poo-pooed" it up until I read your response. I dont know why, but it just kinda hit me....How long ago did we start saying "There seems to be less of them now-a-days". They've taken to the tunnels and only come out when on 'attack the humans' mission, or some other 'get me drugs to test people' mission from Ink. I'm still not sure that THATS what the tunnel is for, but I feel its more substantiated now taking into account the length of time since we noticed their decreased population...and the lack of them on our trail cams. I mean, we see tons of 'lone wolfs' and decide they aren't worth paying any mind, when in reality that's what Ink WANTS us to do, and they're Recon guys....


+1 for Treehemoth as well.

Also....Pegs hears the answering machine, and this is how we get out of Cain? Last minute rescue on the roof by Pegs as our Delivery team runs up the stairs from whatever Treehemoth couldn't handle, Treehemoth himself....or scratch?

We have notice their decreased population, but remember the ALDO that attacked the other one at Englewood. I believe they reducing their own number. We know that Behemoth die from the overdose of chemicals used to make them that way, also that the "zombie" can starve to death as well. Why would Ink keep such a big army when he can continue make his prefect creatures the ALDO?

[Red Shirt]

Hi all. Awesome stuff up there @Red Shirt!

Some key things that stood out to me on initial listening to this episode:

- Datu's "taking a backseat" experience

I have been wracking my brain since that came up and I think I have finally come up with (part of) what I was trying to remember:

Depersonalization disorder, a mental condition in which the sufferer experiences persistent or recurrent feelings of depersonalization and/or derealization.
Depersonalization seems to be the key here, as it's symptoms are described as:

An anomaly of self-awareness. It consists of a feeling of watching oneself act, while having no control over a situation. Subjects feel they have changed, and the world has become vague, dreamlike, less real, or lacking in significance. It can be a disturbing experience, since many feel that, indeed, they are living in a "dream".

Though I am not a neurologist, it seems to be largely caused in the temporal lobe of the brain. Given the position of the temporal lobe within the brain in relation to the parts of the brain that govern higher functions and the parts that regulate instinctual functions... the theory that the Z-Virus disconnects higher functions from instinct makes quite a bit of sense. I think the disconnect point is near the temporal lobe. It seems that depersonalization isn't a secondary symptom, it might be a direct symptom, as it seems that this is the region that is being attacked.

We need Dr. Novella even more than ever. Things of this nature have been discussed on the SGU. One other that was discussed that I can't recall at the moment, is a similar disorder where one seemingly disconnects from the physical self and loses the ability to discern the difference between self and the outside world. If I remember it, I'll mention it here.

[UndeadSweeper]

I have been wracking my brain since that came up and I think I have finally come up with (part of) what I was trying to remember:

Depersonalization disorder, a mental condition in which the sufferer experiences persistent or recurrent feelings of depersonalization and/or derealization.
Depersonalization seems to be the key here, as it's symptoms are described as:



Though I am not a neurologist, it seems to be largely caused in the temporal lobe of the brain. Given the position of the temporal lobe within the brain in relation to the parts of the brain that govern higher functions and the parts that regulate instinctual functions... the theory that the Z-Virus disconnects higher functions from instinct makes quite a bit of sense. I think the disconnect point is near the temporal lobe. It seems that depersonalization isn't a secondary symptom, it might be a direct symptom, as it seems that this is the region that is being attacked.

We need Dr. Novella even more than ever. Things of this nature have been discussed on the SGU. One other that was discussed that I can't recall at the moment, is a similar disorder where one seemingly disconnects from the physical self and loses the ability to discern the difference between self and the outside world. If I remember it, I'll mention it here.

Could it be compare to being in a coma state, where you are aware of everything that around but unable to move or said anything?

[Red Shirt]

Could it be compare to being in a coma state, where you are aware of everything that around but unable to move or said anything?

Not quite, in a coma as they are thus far understood, the patient is unconscious and without discernible brain function. In the case of depersonalization, the person suffering is "awake" but may feel like they are in a dreamlike state and like they are watching themselves as an observer, rather than a participant in the actions they are taking.

Another seemingly related affliction is Locked in Syndrome. This is where the person suffering has lost all voluntary motor control, yet retains all of their higher brain function. LIS can be simulated with Curare poisoning, which when I followed that down the wiki hole, led me to D-tubocurarine, yet another complex carbon ring molecule.

Following on the click throughs, I was also led to Akinetic Mutism. This is a mental state where the sufferer exhibits symptoms that mirror those of LIS, but to a lesser degree. It has been described as "lacking the will to move." Many cases of AM are caused by a stroke originating in the Thalamus, the region of the brain I was trying to remember above. The thalamus is described as being the "central switchboard" and a relay between subcortical areas and the cerebral cortex. Zombification changes in the brain are probably most evident and/or centered here... "...the only test is an autopsy."

[UndeadSweeper]

Not quite, in a coma as they are thus far understood, the patient is unconscious and without discernible brain function. In the case of depersonalization, the person suffering is "awake" but may feel like they are in a dreamlike state and like they are watching themselves as an observer, rather than a participant in the actions they are taking.

Another seemingly related affliction is Locked in Syndrome. This is where the person suffering has lost all voluntary motor control, yet retains all of their higher brain function. LIS can be simulated with Curare poisoning, which when I followed that down the wiki hole, led me to D-tubocurarine, yet another complex carbon ring molecule.

Following on the click throughs, I was also led to Akinetic Mutism. This is a mental state where the sufferer exhibits symptoms that mirror those of LIS, but to a lesser degree. It has been described as "lacking the will to move." Many cases of AM are caused by a stroke originating in the Thalamus, the region of the brain I was trying to remember above. The thalamus is described as being the "central switchboard" and a relay between subcortical areas and the cerebral cortex. Zombification changes in the brain are probably most evident and/or centered here... "...the only test is an autopsy."

Are you sure you are red shirt? You sound like a blue shirt to me. '

[scbubba]

Are you sure you are red shirt? You sound like a blue shirt to me. '

Dammit Jim! I'm a Red Shirt not a doctor!

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Dammit Jim! I'm a Red Shirt not a doctor!

You know you are in trouble when somebody orders you to change your uniform from yellow to red.



Or, let's go back from ST:ATL to ST:TOS.

[Red Shirt]

Are you sure you are red shirt? You sound like a blue shirt to me. '

Dammit Jim! I'm a Red Shirt not a doctor!

Wellllll... the Doctor that my thought process is sometimes similar to is a different doctor entirely...
I might take the long way around... but I eventually get there.