Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower?

[Ra1th]

This is Nikvoodoo talking. Sorry this is so screwy. So here's the recap of what we were talking over in Chapter 20-1 discussion. These messages are the ones I can't merge because they contain Chapter 20 talk. So in the quote blocks in this post are things I had to move, and then I had to put them into ra1th's post here because it won't move around in the order. So....hope that makes sense.

Come now crowbar, you can't really expect to hit Angel like that and NOT have me come after you. (took me long enough though, damn chatbox) First up, it’s not whining rather a passing comment since he’s been busting his ass lately and his recent contributions just went unnoticed. I think it’s also a shout out from kc, to us. We’ve been discussing who could be leader for a while now, and Angel’s name has come up frequently. If anything it’s fan service, that he IS a candidate, and you should also take into consideration that Michael asked if Angel wanted leadership. Angel was smart enough to decline saying the tower was rightfully Michael’s but, to me that’s recognition of Angel’s growth and possibly foreshadowing of the next change of leadership. Keep in mind we are only in season two of three to four seasons, in that time, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t another change of leadership. And when that time comes, my boy Angel will be waiting. But for right now, I’d say Angel’s leadership abilities would be equal to that of Burt. But the tower’s situation is dire, and Burt’s leadership level is no longer enough to keep the crazed tower residents at bay, which is where the fired up and recharged Michael comes into play. Consider Michael to be leveled up. Michael is the leader the tower needs right now.

Ra1th, Ra1th, Ra1th..

Remember the epi when Saul and Angel found Burt? Well, Saul school your boy in the hummer about why he basically won't lead. At the time it was because he expected respect because he's doing "everything every one else is."
You're aren't going to assume leadership by asking "Well what about me??"
You know why Burt took over? It wasn't because he's better than Angel. It's because he demanded it and took it by force of personality.
Compare the time that Burt's been there and the time Angel has been there. No way should Burt have been number 2, but he got it.

I guess you’re right about that. That ability to demand leadership, and yell out an order and expect it to be followed is what Angel still lacks. He still doesn’t have the fire. But I guess baby steps, like you said, the first time Angel wondered why he wasn’t leader, it was because he lacked experience, and leadership in the field. He’s gained that part now, but now he lacks Michael and Burt’s fire, and their wanting to do it their way. Well in good time hopefully, he’ll learn this just like he learned everything else. ONE DAY CROWBAR ONE DAY! Hahaaa as for the team up theory, I’m not going so far as a maller/tower team up, I’m pretty annoyed with the Mallers on how they treated lizzy, but I still want a crazy insane all out battle between the colony, the Mallers and the tower and I want a FAT zombie hoard in there too. I don’t care who’s fighting with who really, I just wanna see the biggest fattest battle possible.

That's the thing. Leaders don't demand leadership. They are given leadership. We saw Marcus demand leadership and it got him killed (lets just assume he is for this argument. I don't want to crack this pandora's box open in this thread). It's not that Angel doesn't have fire, Angel doesn't have the charisma to lead. Angel's intangibles fall behind Michael's in every way. People would do anything for Michael. But as for those intangible, can't quite put your finger on it reasons: nobody would seem to do the same for Angel.

Michael has charisma in spades. Burt even had it, but not as much and he burned through his pretty damn quick with the residents. But for some reason, despite Angel's charming personality and quick wit, his leadership charisma is nearly non-existent.

That's the thing. Leaders don't demand leadership. They are given leadership. We saw Marcus demand leadership and it got him killed (lets just assume he is for this argument. I don't want to crack this pandora's box open in this thread).

Normally, you’re one of the last people I want to debate, but when it comes to a subject like this one, I’ll go to the end of the world and back. So to start it off, Michael was not given leadership. Angel was in charge originally in episode 1. Michael took leadership by gaining Saul’s allegiance and basically undermining Angel’s orders, by breaking into the armory. Same thing with Burt, Burt was (arguably) not given leadership. Michael’s absence left a power vacuum. It didn’t end with the people of the power begging Burt to become leader. While Angel was fumbling around, trying to get people to listen to him, Burt ran in headfirst, barked out orders, and took charge.
It’s the same scenario with our country even. Leadership is not just given to our president. For six months, candidates duke it out in the elections fighting tooth and nail for command and leadership of this country. We, the people don’t just bestow leadership, they fight to show the voters that they are the best candidate for the job.

It's not that Angel doesn't have fire, Angel doesn't have the charisma to lead. Angel's intangibles fall behind Michael's in every way. People would do anything for Michael. But as for those intangible, can't quite put your finger on it reasons: nobody would seem to do the same for Angel.

Michael has charisma in spades. Burt even had it, but not as much and he burned through his pretty damn quick with the residents. But for some reason, despite Angel's charming personality and quick wit, his leadership charisma is nearly non-existent.

This one made me think. I literally spent about an hour just seething over this looking for a way to poke a hole in this, to somehow find a counterpoint. And I couldn’t find one. Until I started thinking about the reason people did things for Burt and Michael that they didn’t for Angel. Confidence. Angel lacks confidence in himself. Because here’s the thing, people WILL do things for Angel, and there are very specific examples of this, ALL of which are in the field. Angel’s team mates will follow his orders in the field. Here are the examples:

When Riley and Datu were about to turn back and head home in defeat after Michael’s supposed death at the pumping station, Angel showed some pretty damn good textbook style charisma, and the others fell in line and followed his lead.
The second example of this is with Kalani on the mission for MREs. He showed some damn good leadership and charisma here as well. Of course here’s where people might say, oh Kalani was rebelling and rebutting the whole time, and if Michael was in charge, this would never have happened. But I’d like to direct your eyes to the episode where Michael and co. rescued DARK (Datu, angel, riley, Kalani). Kalani was half dead and was still giving Michael shit the ENTIRE car ride back WHILE being chased by zombies. (This should just tell you a lot about Kalani’s personality.) And let me tell you, Michael wasn’t handling kalani any better than Angel was. Now back to the original point, Kalani was kicking, screaming and bitching the whole way, but Angel still maintained command. You can see this in when Kalani at multiple points want to leave the supplies and go home. Angel stays true to the mission, and DRAGS Kalani with him and FORCES Kalani into helping him complete the mission. If that isn’t charisma, then nothing is.

So basically the whole point of that tirade was to establish this, Angel shows charisma in the field. Why? Because Angel is confident in the field, he’s confident in his abilities, he’s confident in his experiences, and he knows exactly what the hell he’s doing. Because Angel displays this confidence in the field, people will follow his leadership. Angel lacks confidence to lead the tower as a whole, and confidence, is why people will do things for Michael that they won’t do for Angel.

So at the end of the day, I suppose I can’t really prove you wrong, (as much as I really want to) Every character in this series goes through development, but I’d like to argue that Angel goes through, and I’m predicting that he will continue to go through more development than the others. And one of the biggest themes surrounding Angel’s growth, is leadership. Angel was trained to be a leader, and he was not up to the task in so many ways. With this character, his development revolves around him gaining the experience and finding the confidence to finally fill that leadership role that he was originally meant to fill but failed.

Here’s something I think might be very possible, If you were to throw Burt, Angel and Michael into the field, Angel would be clashing with the others over the best course of action, because Angel is confident in the field, he knows what he’s doing, he knows what he’s up against. And with that confidence, will come the “fire” to want to take leadership, and the charisma that will have others follow his orders.

So at the end of the day, add confidence to the list of shit angel has to achieve before he’s ready for leadership

[nikvoodoo]

Normally, you’re one of the last people I want to debate, but when it comes to a subject like this one, I’ll go to the end of the world and back. So to start it off, Michael was not given leadership. Angel was in charge originally in episode 1. Michael took leadership by gaining Saul’s allegiance and basically undermining Angel’s orders, by breaking into the armory. Same thing with Burt, Burt was (arguably) not given leadership. Michael’s absence left a power vacuum. It didn’t end with the people of the power begging Burt to become leader. While Angel was fumbling around, trying to get people to listen to him, Burt ran in headfirst, barked out orders, and took charge.

I would disagree with Michael not being given leadership. In the beginning Angel was indeed in charge...for like 3 minutes. But once Saul threw his hat into Michael's corner, it was downhill from there. Sure, Michael tried to keep the structure, but it soon became apparent (even to Angel) that Michael was the true leader of the Tower. Even Angel gave Michael the role of leader.

When I say "give" I don't mean there's a conscious conversation of "Hey, you want to be leader?" What I mean by that is the way people act and who the instill their confidence in. The entire Tower trusts Michael, and while certainly a good portion (if not all of them) trust Angel as well, they don't trust him in the same way. Angel hasn't done much to prove he can lead and you did a lot in your post proving it as well. His entire storyline has been plagued by one line that he seems to repeat over and over again: Maybe they/it will just go away. That hasn't done anything to instill confidence in those who would follow him. Even when Michael stepped down, the fist thing Angel says when Kalani asks if that makes Angel in charge he said "Uh, sort of." That's not the charisma or confidence you want in a leader.

It’s the same scenario with our country even. Leadership is not just given to our president. For six months, candidates duke it out in the elections fighting tooth and nail for command and leadership of this country. We, the people don’t just bestow leadership, they fight to show the voters that they are the best candidate for the job.

It's hard to debate this because the structure of a democratic election is so much different than that of a....well for all intents and purposes a dictatorship. There's no election process for the leadership in the Tower. The cream rises to the top, and the people follow that leader.

This one made me think. I literally spent about an hour just seething over this looking for a way to poke a hole in this, to somehow find a counterpoint. And I couldn’t find one. Until I started thinking about the reason people did things for Burt and Michael that they didn’t for Angel. Confidence. Angel lacks confidence in himself.

Agreed. Angel has very little confidence in himself...right now. It's comin' though.

Because here’s the thing, people WILL do things for Angel, and there are very specific examples of this, ALL of which are in the field. Angel’s team mates will follow his orders in the field. Here are the examples:

When Riley and Datu were about to turn back and head home in defeat after Michael’s supposed death at the pumping station, Angel showed some pretty damn good textbook style charisma, and the others fell in line and followed his lead.
The second example of this is with Kalani on the mission for MREs. He showed some damn good leadership and charisma here as well. Of course here’s where people might say, oh Kalani was rebelling and rebutting the whole time, and if Michael was in charge, this would never have happened. But I’d like to direct your eyes to the episode where Michael and co. rescued DARK (Datu, angel, riley, Kalani). Kalani was half dead and was still giving Michael shit the ENTIRE car ride back WHILE being chased by zombies. (This should just tell you a lot about Kalani’s personality.) And let me tell you, Michael wasn’t handling kalani any better than Angel was. Now back to the original point, Kalani was kicking, screaming and bitching the whole way, but Angel still maintained command. You can see this in when Kalani at multiple points want to leave the supplies and go home. Angel stays true to the mission, and DRAGS Kalani with him and FORCES Kalani into helping him complete the mission. If that isn’t charisma, then nothing is.

I'm going to say this now and get it out of the way: Angel is much better in the field than he is in an office. He has been able to get things done despite very long odds.

With Riley and Datu: yes, he forced them forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. With Kalani: Yes, he forced him forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. Angel does well when he's given a task. He will complete the mission he's given come hell or high water. That makes him an effective Number 2. He doesn't lay out the missions on his own. He follows through on the orders and missions someone gives him perfectly to a T. Even dropping off Latch's body. He was given a task by Pegs, and he followed through beautifully. He is the Bret Hart of the Tower: The Excellence of Execution.

So basically the whole point of that tirade was to establish this, Angel shows charisma in the field. Why? Because Angel is confident in the field, he’s confident in his abilities, he’s confident in his experiences, and he knows exactly what the hell he’s doing. Because Angel displays this confidence in the field, people will follow his leadership. Angel lacks confidence to lead the tower as a whole, and confidence, is why people will do things for Michael that they won’t do for Angel.

I'm not going to argue the semantics of pulling Kalani by his teeth to do something vs. inspiring Kalani to follow his lead. Ultimately, the job got done. But I would argue that there's no way in hell you can say Kalani ever followed Angel's lead except when they were being chased by the Behemoth, but that's survival not devotion to a leader.

So at the end of the day, I suppose I can’t really prove you wrong, (as much as I really want to) Every character in this series goes through development, but I’d like to argue that Angel goes through, and I’m predicting that he will continue to go through more development than the others. And one of the biggest themes surrounding Angel’s growth, is leadership. Angel was trained to be a leader, and he was not up to the task in so many ways. With this character, his development revolves around him gaining the experience and finding the confidence to finally fill that leadership role that he was originally meant to fill but failed.

And at the end of my day, I can't necessarily prove that Angel isn't a good leader either, mainly because he hasn't had a real chance to lead yet except at the very beginning when it wasn't clear what was going on. I agree with you that Angel lacks confidence in himself when creating plans or taking the helm. Angel is still growing up as a person and eventually he'll get to the point where Michael was in the beginning and be able to mesh the field experience he's gained with the book knowledge he has and become a good leader.

Here’s something I think might be very possible, If you were to throw Burt, Angel and Michael into the field, Angel would be clashing with the others over the best course of action, because Angel is confident in the field, he knows what he’s doing, he knows what he’s up against. And with that confidence, will come the “fire” to want to take leadership, and the charisma that will have others follow his orders.

So at the end of the day, add confidence to the list of shit angel has to achieve before he’s ready for leadership

I'm gonna tweak your in the field scenario this way. Angel cannot compare to the personality types of Michael and Burt. Odds are, those two would be at each other's throat the entire time they would be on this supposed mission. Angel wouldn't really be able to get a word in edge wise while those two are fighting. He'd have to wait for them to tucker each other out before he could even make a suggestion...or he could shoot one of them to get the other's attention. It's not easy trying to take control of a situation when you're dealing with two alpha dogs. However, if this scenario does happen to crop up, and Angel is able to get a word in edge wise, he's well on his way to being a standalone leader of the Tower.

Confidence added to the Angel's Leadership List.

Don't be afraid to debate me, Ra1th. You hold your own perfectly fine! And you know I think Angel is a good guy and that he's growing. We ultimately agree, I just run around the forums playing devil's advocate to like....everything.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Nik, Ra1th,

time to wade in again. Nik, you said Angel hasn't been given the chance to lead. Flip that. He has, he just couldn't seize the moment. The story started out with him throwing his rank around, but once ish hit the fan, he got ran over by Mike and Saul.
In the Military, a Lt trying to throw his/her weight around in the field will probably end up in deep doo doo.
Anyway, Charisma actually isn't something Angel has. He has a personality that is growing but no one is going to NATURALLY fall in line behind him.

One of the basic tenants of Leadership is: Have a strong hand, be decisive. Another is Set Goals, have a vision and get people to buy into that vision.
In this case- Mike said "We're going to find a place to stay and we're going to pick up survivors along the way."
They did that and as more people arrived he set the tone and the rules. He then delegated authority to the different heads and got them to buy into the survival tactics.
Here's another example: Tommy and the Cameras. Mike shut down Kelly and he inspired "Innovation" by Tommy (Encouraging Innovation is another characteristic of leadership by the way).

It took Marcus to teach Mike the most important quality in war: People will die because of what you say or do. Live with it. That's a Winstin Churchill view on giving orders.
Not everyone is meant to be a leader. Every leader needs his/her inner circle. Lincoln says "Every leader must find his GRANT"
Angel will probably always be a GRANT.. probably. Maybe he's a good Manager type.

I think Angel's place is best as the mediator. I don't think he'd have to wait for Burt or Mike to "Tucker out" before he could get a word in. He has a strong enough personality not to get punked like that. He'd insert himself and get them to work together or come up with the plan himself (even leaders turn into followers at times) and have them tweek it.

[nikvoodoo]

I think Angel's place is best as the mediator. I don't think he'd have to wait for Burt or Mike to "Tucker out" before he could get a word in. He has a strong enough personality not to get punked like that. He'd insert himself and get them to work together or come up with the plan himself (even leaders turn into followers at times) and have them tweek it.

I will not even attempt to get into an argument with you about Military service and how people act that are serving. I don't even remotely come close to having that experience. But overall I agree with you. What I was saying about having the chance to lead is Angel had an opportunity in the beginning, squandered it and then never got the chance to lead again because of his lack of confidence/charisma. I should have been clearer. He has had opportunities, like you mentioned, to take control but has not been able to do so.

And as I was saying Angel makes a perfect second in command to Michael. They compliment each other really well. I love that quote from Lincoln, it sums up the command structure of the Tower perfectly. Michael is Lincoln, Angel is Grant. As for the tucker each other out, I meant that as Angel trying to be the leader. If he was trying to take command over Michael or Burt, I don't think he'd be able to get a word in edge wise. If he was acting as a mediator, as you put it, or in some advisory role I think anyone in charge would be more than happy to listen to his suggestions.

[Yoyo]

I want to say that Michael at least believes that Angel if should he die and something had happen to Burt, he would rise to the occasion to be a great leader or someone that would take care of the tower. While I can't say that Angel has what it takes to take the reins of leading the tower while Michael and Burt are there, I will say Angel would be as good as Michael or Burt in that he has much good sense as them. If anything, Michael is probably someone more deserving of a higher rank than what he has in the military but just didn't bother in training to become a officer (same with Saul the way that Michael said if he had kept his mouth shut, he would be a higher rank than him). Now what I'm saying is that Micheal had he applied himself to become a career officer had the potential to be of a higher rank than Angel. Especially had he not spent three tours in Iraq.

So the way I see it, Angel has all what it takes to lead the tower and be good at it but just maybe Michael is as good (if not better) that it both wouldn't matter to Angel to try to be leader as he has enough to deal with and because Michael presence is enough to leave it as it is.

[Ra1th]

Yoyo, you are my new best friend

and crowbar, nik, MY RESPONSE IS COMING
i've just been superbusy today

[Ra1th]

Aite I gotta break this down, cause it’s too long to respond to three different essay responses. So I’ll start with this.

“ Angel hasn't done much to prove he can lead and you did a lot in your post proving it as well. His entire storyline has been plagued by one line that he seems to repeat over and over again: Maybe they/it will just go away. That hasn't done anything to instill confidence in those who would follow him. Even when Michael stepped down, the fist thing Angel says when Kalani asks if that makes Angel in charge he said "Uh, sort of." That's not the charisma or confidence you want in a leader. “

Well first up, Angel no longer says, “maybe they will go away “ anymore. We saw this when he fought the behemoth. Give him credit he’s not the nancy boy he was when he started out.

"I'm going to say this now and get it out of the way: Angel is much better in the field than he is in an office. He has been able to get things done despite very long odds.

With Riley and Datu: yes, he forced them forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. With Kalani: Yes, he forced him forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. Angel does well when he's given a task. He will complete the mission he's given come hell or high water. That makes him an effective Number 2. He doesn't lay out the missions on his own. He follows through on the orders and missions someone gives him perfectly to a T. Even dropping off Latch's body. He was given a task by Pegs, and he followed through beautifully. He is the Bret Hart of the Tower: The Excellence of Execution. “

This is a good skill, but this doesn’t detract from his ability to lead at all. You have to start somewhere, for angel it starts in the field. No one is born a leader, that is a skill that has to be earned. For some it comes easier than others, but others have to work at it before they achieve that charisma. Angel is of the latter, and right now, he is earning that charisma on the field.

“I'm not going to argue the semantics of pulling Kalani by his teeth to do something vs. inspiring Kalani to follow his lead. Ultimately, the job got done. But I would argue that there's no way in hell you can say Kalani ever followed Angel's lead except when they were being chased by the Behemoth, but that's survival not devotion to a leader. “

And here we’ll clash. You should go back and listen to the last scene between Kalani and Angel in the truck on their way home. Maybe Angel didn’t turn Kalani into his indoctrinated soldier who’ll follow him to the end of the world and back but instead he turned Kalani into an ally and a friend. Maybe it’s not “leadership” but Kalani would do a hell of a lot more for Angel than he would ever do for Burt or Michael. Angel has a different style of converting his followers. He converts them into friends not subjects to be judged and ruled over. Of course this wouldn’t work with a large group of people, but that style would work even better than Michael’s or Burt’s style for a group like the tower.

“Don't be afraid to debate me, Ra1th. You hold your own perfectly fine! And you know I think Angel is a good guy and that he's growing. We ultimately agree, I just run around the forums playing devil's advocate to like....everything.”

Not so much fear of debating you, it’s just a pain in the ass to have to type out these 10 of these 3 page essays to win, or to bring it to a standstill.


holdup the other responses are coming

[MrScott101]

Angel for the moment doesn't appear to have the all out confidence needed to be leader and can be a bit hot headed without reasoning or looking at things from more than one side in a heated situation. Granted he's not like that all the time and there are several times where he has a great idea. I think that group will not take him as a serious lead because of that. If Michael was to leave again, I don't think Burt will step back up but I can see Saul and Angel co-lead.

At least in this point of the story I just don't think Angel has what it takes to do it himself. It would be great character dev to see him gain the skills and respect needed to be in a leader position.

(edit side note, this was prior to the post above)

[Ra1th]

Angel for the moment doesn't appear to have the all out confidence needed to be leader and can be a bit hot headed without reasoning or looking at things from more than one side in a heated situation. Granted he's not like that all the time and there are several times where he has a great idea. I think that group will not take him as a serious lead because of that. If Michael was to leave again, I don't think Burt will step back up but I can see Saul and Angel co-lead.

At least in this point of the story I just don't think Angel has what it takes to do it himself. It would be great character dev to see him gain the skills and respect needed to be in a leader position.

(edit side note, this was prior to the post above)

I'll give you some points, like that he doesnt quite have the confidence to lead the tower just yet.

here's where character development comes in, When angel first started out he couldnt do shit. He was useless in the field, and no one followed him period. Over season 1 and 2 he's grown into probably the best field commander in the tower, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he's even better than Michael at this, and to back it up, I'll quote nikvoodoo.

"He follows through on the orders and missions someone gives him perfectly to a T. Even dropping off Latch's body. He was given a task by Pegs, and he followed through beautifully. He is the Bret Hart of the Tower: The Excellence of Execution. “
It’s also worth considering that Angel goes on more missions than anyone else in the tower. Saul’s been dying half the series. Michael, for the first half of the series, was leader, and couldn’t leave the tower, and for the second half of the series had his arm broken, which left their workloads to my boy here.
So nowadays Angel is your go to guy for field ops. Considering where Angel was at the beginning of the show regarding field experience, and where he is now, there is a world of difference. Angel is a character that literally represents growth and potential. (I’m gonna make a supernerdy reference here. Angel is like a Magicarp, when he starts out he’s ridiculously weak, and he cant do much, but as he grows, he’ll evolve into a gyarados and turn into one of the best damn pokemon out there. )

As for saul and angel co leading. No. way. In. fucking. hell. That’s a disgrace! I’d rather just have Angel die than have him be so shitty a leader that he cant do it on his own. (and that’s saying something ) Saul was never a leader, saul was always a follower. Saul’s not the sharpest tool in the shack either.

If angel isn’t capable to lead on his own, then he doesn’t deserve it. If that was the case, I’d be the angriest of the fans if that happened, because that’s literally saying Angel never reached his potential. He has an almost unlimited room to grow. That’s Angel’s strength. He can work and improve and better himself.

At this point in time, It is impossible to argue that Angel is capable enough to lead. I know it’s impossible because I spent a good bit of time trying to make an argument for that and failed miserably. So I stick to hope for the future. Angel’s future lies in

Every character has a story. Pegs’ is how she overcomes her fears, and her weaknesses, and becomes a strong and capable character.
Tommy wanted to be useful. And before he died, he was out there in the battlefield setting up cameras and keeping guard so that the tower stood a chance in fighting the Mallers.

Burt’s storyline is in protecting others, and keeping watch over his friends. His wife died, and he couldn’t do anything to stop it. He was then all alone. The tower gave him a second chance. He now has friends and people he cares about deeply. And his biggest goal is to keep them all safe no matter what. That’s why he ended up in a leadership role after the war. He wanted to keep his friends safe. That’s why tommy’s death hit him so hard. He failed to keep tommy safe. That is Burt’s storyline

And this continues on for every character, there is a theme surrounding them. For angel it’s leadership, he failed to lead in the beginning of the story. His development is in becoming a leader among the people, and finally being able to step into the shoes that he originally failed to fill.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Ra1th,

The only thing I'd counterpoint to this is that Saul has the most experience in the field that both Mike and Angel. I'm talking total experience. Angel has more recent experience and intel on the infected, but Saul is a better tactician and is actually more confident. Reference the two times he's used his knife vs the Molotov Behemoth moment. Angel might as well have said "I throw like a girl!" LOL. messing with you there.
That was just a confidence piece I wanted to bring up really.

Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.