Does Kalani get a pass?

[sailorangel59]

Wow, I didn't realize a snide remark about killing off an annoying character could lead to such long discussion. I'm just impressed.

[yarri]

Wow, I didn't realize a snide remark about killing off an annoying character could lead to such long discussion. I'm just impressed.

its a good thread!

[Ray]

That wasn't judgmental at all. As far your staunch advocacy for the tower being better off without him, well to be honest you're completely wrong. Without Kalani they never would have had the ability to fly.

I'm wrong? I seem to remember that Kalani kept Bill stealing all the ammo a secret, went along with the party idea, started the whole fight by following Scratch's orders to shoot at the ground thereby having the events start that lead to all the water in the tower being used to extinguish the fire that almost engulfed the whole tower. Yes, he did give them the ability to fly, but he also made it necessary for them to need that ability. How you can't connect the facts with the beginning of his appearance with what the end results are is frankly amazing. Could it have played out differently without Kalani there? Could they have needed to leave the tower in search of supplies later on? Of course. It is known fact that the situation with having to fly somewhere to get supplies that they needed was all because of his betrayal. It's literally spelled out in the plot up to this point. They needed water because he directly caused them to not be able to defend themselves from the Maller attack. How can you not see this? Are you choosing to ignore it? Are you trying to be philosophical about Kalani? The situation may have played out differently, yes. That is true. The way it is now goes straight back to Kalani's actions. All of it. They were weakened severely from the attack that Kalani orchestrated behind the scenes and it was necessary for them to fly out. Even as he was teaching Pegs to fly, he was still plotting against and insulting the Tower residents. Having a sudden change of heart right at the end doesn't relieve him of the fact that his actions lead to the deaths of everyone in the Tower and it's complete destruction. Would you forgive this man if he had killed the majority of the people you had known? Would you forgive him for destroying the one safe place you had literally bled to make? I couldn't, because everything I had would stand a very good chance of being just fine if he had never come around.

[yarri]

I'm wrong? I seem to remember that Kalani kept Bill stealing all the ammo a secret, went along with the party idea, started the whole fight by following Scratch's orders to shoot at the ground thereby having the events start that lead to all the water in the tower being used to extinguish the fire that almost engulfed the whole tower. Yes, he did give them the ability to fly, but he also made it necessary for them to need that ability. How you can't connect the facts with the beginning of his appearance with what the end results are is frankly amazing. Could it have played out differently without Kalani there? Could they have needed to leave the tower in search of supplies later on? Of course. It is known fact that the situation with having to fly somewhere to get supplies that they needed was all because of his betrayal. It's literally spelled out in the plot up to this point. They needed water because he directly caused them to not be able to defend themselves from the Maller attack. How can you not see this? Are you choosing to ignore it? Are you trying to be philosophical about Kalani? The situation may have played out differently, yes. That is true. The way it is now goes straight back to Kalani's actions. All of it. They were weakened severely from the attack that Kalani orchestrated behind the scenes and it was necessary for them to fly out. Even as he was teaching Pegs to fly, he was still plotting against and insulting the Tower residents. Having a sudden change of heart right at the end doesn't relieve him of the fact that his actions lead to the deaths of everyone in the Tower and it's complete destruction. Would you forgive this man if he had killed the majority of the people you had known? Would you forgive him for destroying the one safe place you had literally bled to make? I couldn't, because everything I had would stand a very good chance of being just fine if he had never come around.

Knowing Bill took the ammo does not equal knowing the contents of the armory.The tower was going to fall that was the 2nd attack they had had.. They had crap for defenses they were living on borrowed time.

[Ray]

Don't read emotion into textual posts. I asked you this question before apparently you missed it. In this situation Kalani didn't know these "tower" folks. Didn't know what they were able to do, or would do for someone like him. They were ill organized stealing from each other and lying to each other. To his eyes they were ineffective and doomed to failure and where did he know they had claymores, grenades and a .50 cal machine gun? Was that before or after the attack on the tower? Michael, Saul and Angel (three "trained" military infantry vs oh what 100 armed murders and thieves.. Now doesn't that sound like a sound and rational battle plan. 3 vs 100 I would say that would be a tad over whelming odds I think they call that in Vegas a suckers bet)

Kalani wasn't a super hero. He was a fat old Hawaiian guy that wanted nothing more then to have the one person he loved his daughter safe. You're assuming he had some prior knowledge or ability to reason out that his daughter was dead. He acted as a human being would.. flawed and with emotion. Like any other parent would faced with this situation.

You asked me twice, and then inserted words into my mouth the second time. He saw them as disorganized and ineffective at first, when they proved their effectiveness later, he still plotted against them. He never once said anything about being grateful they didn't leave his fat ass to die at the arena, and even after Angel saved his life everyone "became somewhat tolerable" according to him. Save his life, he doesn't like the way you conduct operations even while on his own stupid plan and they're barely tolerable to him? Worthless. Completely worthless.

I would take two of my Marines against untrained prisoners any day of the week. The Tower guys were better armed and better trained. Sheer numbers are one way to assure you never succeed. Hell, they only succeeded attacking them the first time because of Kalani making sure they had no ammo. The Mallers had nothing more than pistols and ladders when they attacked so they were no better armed than the Tower guys anyway. I'll forgive you for thinking that 3 vs 100 is a stupid plan, you've obviously never been exposed to the military or military tactics. Even 3 Army infantry would be a match directing 25 other people, and don't forget that they had given proper training to alot of the other people in the Tower as well.

No Kalani wasn't a super hero. I'm not assuming anything about him being able to reason that his daughter was dead, I'm saying that he was a complete moron for even trying to work with the Mallers in their agreement to keep his daughter alive. He was as dangerous as he was stupid. It's a shame he got so many other people killed on his foolish quest to get his daughter back by doing exactly the wrong things. He acted as a stupid human would, not everyone would choose such an idiotic way to save someone. You're assuming that any other parent would betray everyone around them to save murderous criminals from saving your kid when you have superior firepower, superior mobility, super training and loyal people to your cause. He had everything at his disposal to make an attack with an extremely high chance of success and instead trusted murderers to not kill his daughter. They gave him at least 10 reasons and demonstrations of their apathy towards even his safety to show that they would honor the deal. Like I said, had he not been a moron he would have known that murderers don't typically uphold their word and he had literally 30 people that could have helped with a very very good chance of getting her back. Instead he chose the path that got himself, his daughter, and many others killed.

You've said friends after family and you'd do anything or kill anyone to keep your kid safe right? Family above all else? Did it ever occur to you that those around you just might be willing to help you get them back? Did it ever occur to you that one against many (as you pointed out above) can and usually is a foolish endeavor? I figured that most people were smart enough to realize that you've got more guns, better people, better training and more mobility is better than trying to negotiate with a murderer. Instead of being all emotional and heroic, maybe he should have asked for help and so should you or anyone else that thinks his actions were the right ones or justified.

[Ray]

Knowing Bill took the ammo does not equal knowing the contents of the armory.The tower was going to fall that was the 2nd attack they had had.. They had crap for defenses they were living on borrowed time.

What difference does it make what ammo he knows he has taken away from them when he knows he has it all? He even confirms it multiple times (to Scratch over the radio while on duty) and tells them what weapons that they do have ammo for, although no a lot thanks to him. That's a completely moot point. The crap defenses was specifically because of what Kalani and Bill had done to the tower residents the first time the Mallers attacked. They expended ammo they shouldn't have needed to, had they not been betrayed by Bill and Kalani, and lost their entire water supply to extinguishing the fire. They had to stretch themselves really thin to make up for all those wasted supplies and ammo from the first fight. Everything in your comment can be logically traced back to what Kalani did. Do you understand the meaning of cause and effect?

Can no one in this thread see past the end of their nose? The whole point of any story is to set up events and then continue to story based on what's happened and continues to happen! All present events can be traced all the way back, factually and logically, to when Kalani showed up. His journal spells out everything he did for FSM sake. It's right there in the story!

[yarri]

You asked me twice, and then inserted words into my mouth the second time. He saw them as disorganized and ineffective at first, when they proved their effectiveness later, he still plotted against them. He never once said anything about being grateful they didn't leave his fat ass to die at the arena, and even after Angel saved his life everyone "became somewhat tolerable" according to him. Save his life, he doesn't like the way you conduct operations even while on his own stupid plan and they're barely tolerable to him? Worthless. Completely worthless.
.

I would take two of my Marines against untrained prisoners any day of the week. The Tower guys were better armed and better trained. Sheer numbers are one way to assure you never succeed. Hell, they only succeeded attacking them the first time because of Kalani making sure they had no ammo. The Mallers had nothing more than pistols and ladders when they attacked so they were no better armed than the Tower guys anyway. I'll forgive you for thinking that 3 vs 100 is a stupid plan, you've obviously never been exposed to the military or military tactics. Even 3 Army infantry would be a match directing 25 other people, and don't forget that they had given proper training to alot of the other people in the Tower as well.
It wasn't Kalani insuring they had no ammo that was Bill. murderers to not kill his daughter. They gave him at least 10 reasons and demonstrations of their apathy towards even his safety to show that they would honor the deal. Like I said, had he not been a moron he would have known that murderers don't typically uphold their word and he had literally 30 people that could have helped with a very very good chance of getting her back. Instead he chose the path that got himself, his daughter, and many others killed.

You've said friends after family and you'd do anything or kill anyone to keep your kid safe right? Family above all else? Did it ever occur to you that those around you just might be willing to help you get them back? Did it ever occur to you that one against many (as you pointed out above) can and usually is a foolish endeavor? I figured that most people were smart enough to realize that you've got more guns, better people, better training and more mobility is better than trying to negotiate with a murderer. Instead of being all emotional and heroic, maybe he should have asked for help and so should you or anyone else that thinks his actions were the right ones or justified.[/QUOTE]

1. I never inserted words in your mouth
2. I'm military so your forgiveness isn't required.
3. 100 to 3 odds is still a suckers bet no matter how well you are armed unless your Batman. Are you Batman? The majority of that tower were direct-able but poorly trained.
I'll answer the rest of this in the am I have to go to work Have a good night

4. To assume that the convicts of Eastern Bay were "untrained" is pure arrogance.
Eastern bay prison houses hardened criminals not white collar guys that cheated on their taxes to quote Burt (lady and the tink part 2 about the 3:02mark) I'm confident that the convicts at Eastern Bay know how to use a gun, wield a knife and practice the fine art of beating someone to death with any random object that comes to hand.

5. My MOS I was Logistics I've ordered, inventoried and maintained everything from ammo to F18 wings and everything in between. The fact that the armory wasn't checked on a daily basis and every bullet eye balled to see if the shine was still glowing bright smacks of a serious break in the chain of command. The fact that guys like you had bullets to fire in what ever military engagement you were in was because of folks like me doing my job. Someone in that tower wasn't doing their job. It would have taken time to move an armory of that size by one person. That means whom ever was maintaining that Armory aka BURT and who ever was on watch aka EVERYONE else fell asleep at the wheel.

( now that last part could be termed an emotional outburst.. maybe. nah.. not really. I'm tired I get a little freaky when I'm this tired )

[Osiris]

Could you please use a legible color for your drivel?

You lose all credibility right then and there. Congrats, you've joined the ranks of amateur trolls.

It's extremely hard to read what you write. "Divorced, logical examination of the facts" are exactly what I'm going off of.

Were that true, you would be acknowledging the simple fact that you are seeing a representation of the Mallers after the fact. To put it very simple, this is a re-telling of events. Everything we've learned about the Mallers have coloured them in a negative light. The simple fact that the episode in which we learn of Kalani's subterfuge comes in the third season colours your own judgment of his situation. #FACT

The Mallers (before he knew that's what the other group referred to them as) basically kidnapped him, his daughter and Pippin. They wouldn't release him or his daughter unless he spied on the Tower inhabitants.

Remember these are your words. I'll explain how you've contradicted yourself in a little while.

It's that simple. Anyone with any sense would know that getting roped in with the group that were the Mallers was a losing battle. They kidnapped/kept his daughter against both of their wishes and in exchange for his daughters safety they wanted him to basically infiltrate and effectively destroy the group at the tower with CJ. They told him to go gather information, and when they got overrun they pretty much left him to die. "Better start runnin'" is what Scratch told him. To them, he wasn't worth the trouble of saving since their building was effectively ruined and everyone was at the very high possibility of being killed by the zombies and the guy with the tats. He pleaded with them to tell him how his daughter was when he contacted them from the second Tower. No answer. Yes, the concepts are mutually exclusive.

We've already determined that your point of view is not divorced from the facts as they were presented to the characters in the story, and to us. Again, the only reason Kalani followed orders was to save his daughter from a group of people desperate to survive. You cannot inject knowledge of intent of specific groups or characters, or omniscience and clairvoyance into a character simply because you--as a listener--are aware of events that have taken place. That means all of the events that happened involving Scratch, Durai or anyone else, prior to Kalani's arrival and subsequent involvement are meaningless. You may have 'known' that Hannah was doomed from the start, but the simple fact is Kalani didn't. Anyone with any sense at all would do anything they could to get their child back safely. Strangers be damned. We've covered this, pay attention next time.

He at no time was looking out for anyone but himself, and foolishly, his daughter. Nothing up to that point gave him any logical indication that his work would result in the release of his daughter, they had already left him to die at the first tower he was in. They used the possibility of getting his daughter back to further manipulate him and the Mallers never told her of her condition or location. Do I believe she was dead before that girl got shot at the golf course? No. I believe that was her at the golf course. What I meant was that she was effectively dead as soon as they were separated. He already knew they were seriously dangerous people as soon as they got back to their strip mall. He had already seen how they treated other people. Only an idiot would think they were any different and that they would uphold their end of the deal. As revealed in his journal they continued to keep him in the dark about his daughter. She was effectively dead by then, not literally. The Mallers gave him ZERO indication that she was alive and that she would be released, and even sent Pippin in to check on him and the situation at the Tower. That's why he murdered Pippin to cover his tracks.

Again, you're injecting information and foresight into a character who has none of the knowledge that you've gained while listening to events that precede his arrival. Pay. Attention. You are also injecting motivation into a character when no motivation was given. How would Kalani (who should be so suspicious of everyone he meets, by your reasoning) not believe that Pippin was in league with the Mallers and sent to replace him, since he was unable to produce on the plan that he was charged with setting in motion? Answer? It doesn't fit your 'logic' and as such, is tossed aside and disregarded, thought your own logic dictates otherwise.

They have nothing to lose by keeping or not keeping her around, Kalani had everything to lose by not doing what they said. Without any evidence she was safe, without any logical reason to believe she would be, he insulted, betrayed and undermined their efforts to escape the wrath of the Mallers and caused the deaths and destruction of the Tower. The Mallers simply attacked them because Pegs shot Latch in self defense. He enabled and encouraged their deaths. It's as simple as that. Those are the facts.

None of those are facts. Those are speculations and falsehoods. The Maller's didn't attack because Pegs shot Latch 'in self-defence', if you had paid attention to the episode you would know the War was going on long before Latch tried to enter the building. Inconsistencies like this will be your downfall in this argument. As to Kalani's 'lack of logical reasoning' I say this: Have a child. Have that child kidnapped. Watch logic vanish--not that I expect you've entertained having it around, based on this wall of text you've provided that runs in circles and contradicts itself. Kalani acted on the hope that his daughter would be returned to him; hope for the only thing he has left in the world.

I'm tired of your "superior" act and condescending tone.

You've yet to be introduced to my condescending tone. As for my superiority, well... I cite this post as proof, though I hardly think that your words are helping you to prove your point. Which still seems to be that all characters in the story have the same emotional state and bias that you do. This sort of thinking is false and holds absolutely no logic at all.

NOTHING the Mallers did gave any indication that they would uphold their end of the deal and they didn't. Anyone that has any sense knows that, in that situation or not. I knew the second it was revealed in his journal that they kept her in exchange for his spying, she was as good as dead. Only a hopeful fool would have believed otherwise.

The reason you 'knew' this is because you have knowledge of prior events. Again, this is information Kalani had no access to. If you're not going to provide an argument that doesn't move beyond 'I knew it so anyone with a brain should have' then you're going to continue to lose.

As someone else said, he would have had a better and more reasonable chance had he teamed up with the Tower residents and gone after them to try and save her. He said as much when he talked about getting the helos up and running, he wanted to try and use them to possibly save her. Too little, too late.

Hey, let's jump in the Way-Back Machine and use your own logic to solve this puzzle you've created for yourself. Kalani lands in L.A. in the middle of the night, essentially on his own, save Hannah. The first people he meets kidnap him and his daughter, holding her hostage to do his bidding.

You still with me? I'll go slow so you don't miss this part.

Kalani is then sent to spy on CJ's tower. A group of un-trusting, paranoid people who have each other under camera. A short time passes, that tower is overrun and Kalani is? Taken and thrown into a holding area inside of the Arena, where he spends the time contemplating his life. He resigned himself to his fate and tried to kill himself. Now, another group shows up. Chaos, confusion, danger are all present as they try to escape. Yadda, yadda, yadda. He ends up in yet another tower, with a hostile commander--and if you go back and listen you'll see that Michael is in fact quite hostile and dismissive toward Kalani--nobody trusts him and nobody seems willing to let him leave. You'll recall that he did ask for a gun and some ammo to leave. Hmmm... I don't know about you, but if the first group that I met when I landed, kidnapped me and was holding my daughter hostage, the second group that I found myself with was incredibly paranoid and mistrusting and finally the third bunch showed me similar traits, I would logically assume everyone here is roughly the same. Your own logic tells me I should be wary to the point of a fault of any person that crosses my path. Care to rethink that?

The Tower residents were willing to attack the Mallers to get back Lizzy, maybe they would have for his daughter as well.

No, no, no. Lizzy is already dead. We know this because anyone with any sense would know that Scratch and Co. would kill her no matter what. Trying to rescue her would be completely stupid and irrational, totally illogical and senseless! This is your logic here, not mine.

Kill two birds with one stone. I know that's nothing more than supposition, but they had demonstrated that they were willing to attack them to get someone back. Kalani is responsible for every death in the Tower since he got there, his own journal tells the story of his betrayal. Those are the facts, not my wishful thinking or my opinion of the man as the character Kalani. Trying to protect his kid was completely stupid and irrational.

I know. Saul and Victor are completely wasting their time. It's unbelievable how Michael let them endanger their lives at the golf course when we already knew she was dead. That's some hard as fuck factual logic there, ain't it?

They were never going to let her go and anyone with any sense knows that. Whether you choose to accept reality or dismiss it like he did doesn't matter, she was never going to make it out of their control alive, especially while he's off running around doing their dirty work and had no way to confirm that she was still alive.

See above.

Yes, that question you posed versus what this situation is are mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't kill one dirtbag and then save hundreds. He killed about 25 people to save someone that was effectively dead given who she was captured by and he died in the process without getting anything set right. Your hypothetical situation and this one are absolutely opposite one another. Kalani wasn't in it to save hundreds, he was in it to save one in a situation where she was never going to be saved. If I were him, I'd have recruited everyone I know to go after them and kill as many as possible trying to save her. No one in the Tower was standing in his way and had he tried, they most likely would have stood with him. Instead he chose to betray them and got what he deserved. He cannot be forgiven for doing something so evil. He only stopped the tanker in the end out of guilt, not because he cared for anyone in the Tower. He knew his efforts were for nothing and had no reason to live. Hell, Angel saved his life at least twice and he still talked bad about him.

Since you've already proved, beyond any doubt at all, that you have a blurry recollection of the events of the series, I'm going to leave you with this:

In response to the question that I posed versus the topic at hand being mutually exclusive, I find that your reasoning to be contradictory.

Still, it's like if an emergency surgeon who had saved hundreds of lives suddenly murdered someone. Would you give the surgeon a pass for the murder?

You've made this comparison of your own volition. My response poses a diametrically opposed viewpoint and suddenly the two are mutually exclusive? Your lack of ability to argue a point is beyond amazing. I've explained the this adequately, considering your 'argument' is based entirely on one point: omniscience. It is, therefore invalid.

*Drops the mic. Walks away*

[Osiris]

Wow, I didn't realize a snide remark about killing off an annoying character could lead to such long discussion. I'm just impressed.

The fans have passion.

[Osiris]

I'm wrong? I seem to remember that Kalani kept Bill stealing all the ammo a secret, went along with the party idea, started the whole fight by following Scratch's orders to shoot at the ground thereby having the events start that lead to all the water in the tower being used to extinguish the fire that almost engulfed the whole tower. Yes, he did give them the ability to fly, but he also made it necessary for them to need that ability. How you can't connect the facts with the beginning of his appearance with what the end results are is frankly amazing. Could it have played out differently without Kalani there? Could they have needed to leave the tower in search of supplies later on? Of course. It is known fact that the situation with having to fly somewhere to get supplies that they needed was all because of his betrayal. It's literally spelled out in the plot up to this point. They needed water because he directly caused them to not be able to defend themselves from the Maller attack. How can you not see this? Are you choosing to ignore it? Are you trying to be philosophical about Kalani? The situation may have played out differently, yes. That is true. The way it is now goes straight back to Kalani's actions. All of it. They were weakened severely from the attack that Kalani orchestrated behind the scenes and it was necessary for them to fly out. Even as he was teaching Pegs to fly, he was still plotting against and insulting the Tower residents. Having a sudden change of heart right at the end doesn't relieve him of the fact that his actions lead to the deaths of everyone in the Tower and it's complete destruction. Would you forgive this man if he had killed the majority of the people you had known? Would you forgive him for destroying the one safe place you had literally bled to make? I couldn't, because everything I had would stand a very good chance of being just fine if he had never come around.

I love this guy. It's like he's known the entire plot of the story since the first episode. Obvious troll is obvious. Still entertaining.