Who's The Rat v2.0

[WestonWisdom]

You say "could," when in your starting post you clearly stated "without a doubt." Kind of changed your mind, haven't you?

Trying to defuse the situation, Angel is the rat, without a doubt, nothing Ra1th has said has dissuaded me at all.

[Ra1th]

I believe Bill is only a recluse after the infection, being terrified of people "coming and ripping your fucking face off" changes a person. I also don't believe it's ever mentioned if Bill has a job or not, presuming he doesn't(he owns the building), thats a lot of free time to spend doing other things.

Just because it's accepted by the majority does not mean it is the correct answer(cleverly ignoring occam's razor), the only reason I question the belief that Datu recognises him because Angel visited the tower beforehand is that people say he looks familiar twice, and Angel denies it, twice.

Perhaps we have a different interpretation of the interaction's between Angel and Scratch, wanting to shoot someone just for being there isn't his finest moment, it seemed to me like they had interacted previously, and desperation that people within the tower could learn of this interaction led him to make the suggestion that they "just shoot them"?

I've mentioned several things that could make him the traitor, I don't mean to imply that the only reason he could be the traitor, I'm sorry, but your explanation of Angel being happy within the hierarchy of the tower doesn't really satisfy me.

He knew who Scratch and latch were and that they were mallers. Its not so bad to shoot mallers on site. But yes, I agree with you there is definitely a connection between scratch and Angel.

Yes the majority can be wrong, but up until now, this hasn’t been an issue, and it was mostly because of occam’s razor. I’m sure if you ask Kc the question, he’d give you an answer. He’s usually really good about letting us know when we’re debating something that has no value.

Even if Bill wasn’t a recluse before the zombie apocalypse. The chances that Angel and Bill would have run into each other are really low. Think about it Bill lives on the 14th floor of the tower. The majority of people use the elevator. Especially If they had to go to the 14th floor. We know for a fact that Bill didn’t really keep a eye on the tower and its residence. So he wouldn’t be wandering about the random corridors of the building, on floors that werent his own. The only time they would have run into each other is at the elevator. Its unlikely that they ran into each other.

Go over the things that make him a traitor again?
You stated that Datu recognized him, and that Angel didn’t recognize datu
That Bill didn’t recognize him, when datu did
And that there is an unknown connection between Scratch and Angel
And that Angel wanted command from Michael.

Am I missing anything?

[WestonWisdom]

He knew who Scratch and latch were and that they were mallers. Its not so bad to shoot mallers on site. But yes, I agree with you there is definitely a connection between scratch and Angel.

Yes the majority can be wrong, but up until now, this hasn’t been an issue, and it was mostly because of occam’s razor. I’m sure if you ask Kc the question, he’d give you an answer. He’s usually really good about letting us know when we’re debating something that has no value.

Even if Bill wasn’t a recluse before the zombie apocalypse. The chances that Angel and Bill would have run into each other are really low. Think about it Bill lives on the 14th floor of the tower. The majority of people use the elevator. Especially If they had to go to the 14th floor. We know for a fact that Bill didn’t really keep a eye on the tower and its residence. So he wouldn’t be wandering about the random corridors of the building, on floors that werent his own. The only time they would have run into each other is at the elevator. Its unlikely that they ran into each other.

Go over the things that make him a traitor again?
You stated that Datu recognized him, and that Angel didn’t recognize datu
That Bill didn’t recognize him, when datu did
And that there is an unknown connection between Scratch and Angel
And that Angel wanted command from Michael.

Am I missing anything?

I think either you are misunderstanding or I have misrepresented my point in regards to people recognising him, Firstly, I think multiple people claiming to recognise him is suspicious, Secondly, I think the fact that he denies it when it happens also points to either him genuinely not remembering him or him trying to hide something that the other aren't aware of.

Yeah, I don't think Angel is happy with the way things are going in the tower, In my opinion, he wouldn't have made a (pathetic)play for power in Chapter20(Much like Steven did when Burt was in charge?),

And while my previous posts seem to show that the mystery surrounding Angel and Scratch is the only reason I believe him to be the traitor, that's not the case, but I do think Angel's actions around her show that he is trying to hide something, shooting a survivor(regardless of background) isn't something to be proud of.

WILD OFFSHOOT, DON'T HOLD THIS AGAINST ME, TOTALLY DISREGARD THIS IN THE ARGUEMENT

An important thing to remember about the way WA is told is that, just because we don't hear about it, doesn't mean it isn't happening, If Angel was the traitor, or disgruntled with Michael, would he write it down? Especially knowing Michael has a habit of just ripping peoples journals away from them at a a moments notice.

[wooly]

The "unknown tower occupant" option is getting a lot of love, yet not much discussion. Other than for dramatic reasons, why couldn't it be one of the 12-ish people who don't have a major role?

These are all basically strangers to the tower who came in while the welcome sign was up. One of them could very well have been an Eastern Bay refugee who straggled in as a survivor then later made contact with his old compatriots. Could have run into the Mallers while out scavenging and then later by radio in a continuing arrangement.Given that the listeners are not given much in the way of back stories on these minor characters it could be easily written in this way.

Even if not a former inmate, the background characters could easily share the same motives. They aren't important, just doing the day-to-day grunt work of survival. If this was a caste system, they would be the bottom level. Plenty of excuses for resentment and treachery.

I know it's not as fun as picking on Angel, but it makes more sense to me.

[WestonWisdom]

The "unknown tower occupant" option is getting a lot of love, yet not much discussion. Other than for dramatic reasons, why couldn't it be one of the 12-ish people who don't have a major role?

These are all basically strangers to the tower who came in while the welcome sign was up. One of them could very well have been an Eastern Bay refugee who straggled in as a survivor then later made contact with his old compatriots. Could have run into the Mallers while out scavenging and then later by radio in a continuing arrangement.Given that the listeners are not given much in the way of back stories on these minor characters it could be easily written in this way.

Even if not a former inmate, the background characters could easily share the same motives. They aren't important, just doing the day-to-day grunt work of survival. If this was a caste system, they would be the bottom level. Plenty of excuses for resentment and treachery.

I know it's not as fun as picking on Angel, but it makes more sense to me.

You raise a good point, I think Stevens little outburst could show that the strangers in the tower aren't happy with not being a "favorite"

[mylittlepwny]

Tommy I think its the logical guess because he was the guy running the cameras and the technical gadgets before the "Tower War"

[Ra1th]

I think either you are misunderstanding or I have misrepresented my point in regards to people recognising him, Firstly, I think multiple people claiming to recognise him is suspicious, Secondly, I think the fact that he denies it when it happens also points to either him genuinely not remembering him or him trying to hide something that the other aren't aware of. .

And I’m telling you for the Datu case, it was almost surely the first case. Genuinely not remembering who the maintenance guy of his girlfriend’s apartment building was. He might be hiding something with scratch though. But that’s one situation not two.

Yeah, I don't think Angel is happy with the way things are going in the tower, In my opinion, he wouldn't have made a (pathetic)play for power in Chapter20(Much like Steven did when Burt was in charge?), .

It was not a play for power at all. How is “It would have been nice to have been considered for leadership” taken as bitter disgruntlement with the way things are run. What has Michael or Burt done, that Angel has taken serious issue with? I’m not seeing what Angel should be so angry about, that he’d want to overthrow Michael and Burt. And if that WAS his intention, then he wouldn’t just let it be known that he’d like to be considered for leadership. IMO it was just a passing remark, maybe even as a fan shout out to the “ Angel for leader “ wars that was going on at the time. Im still not seeing the motive Angel has for wanting a change of power.

And while my previous posts seem to show that the mystery surrounding Angel and Scratch is the only reason I believe him to be the traitor, that's not the case, but I do think Angel's actions around her show that he is trying to hide something, shooting a survivor(regardless of background) isn't something to be proud of. .

And like I’ve said, He could be hiding something with scratch. But that alone is not reason to call him the traitor, maybe that is a little suspicious, but to guarantee that he is absolutely and most definitely under all circumstances the traitor, is far fetched. The other reasons you’re giving me, either I’m not understanding them properly or they don’t hold water.

[nikvoodoo]

You raise a good point, I think Stevens little outburst could show that the strangers in the tower aren't happy with not being a "favorite"

I think Kelly's uprising(s), Michael's narration before the party, Burt's narration as he was carrying Tommy through the hallway, and Simon's attempted escape is some more evidence that the general populace is displeased with life in the Tower. But I still don't think it was someone we don't know. Steven served a plot purpose in getting Lizzy booted from the Tower. I don't think he's got too much else to offer as it stands story wise right now. I believe too much is being made at his "power play" against Burt. He immediately backed down when Burt challenged him. Steven is a talker, he is not an action taker.

P.S. Its nice to see Ra1th fighting with people and me not be in the middle of it for once.

[Ra1th]

P.S. Its nice to see Ra1th fighting with people and me not be in the middle of it for once.

Angel wars are a helluva lot easier when you and crowbar arent involved lol

[WestonWisdom]

And I’m telling you for the Datu case, it was almost surely the first case. Genuinely not remembering who the maintenance guy of his girlfriend’s apartment building was. He might be hiding something with scratch though. But that’s one situation not two.

Dead horse, we are never going to see eye to eye on this I can see.

It was not a play for power at all. How is “It would have been nice to have been considered for leadership” taken as bitter disgruntlement with the way things are run. What has Michael or Burt done, that Angel has taken serious issue with? I’m not seeing what Angel should be so angry about, that he’d want to overthrow Michael and Burt. And if that WAS his intention, then he wouldn’t just let it be known that he’d like to be considered for leadership. IMO it was just a passing remark, maybe even as a fan shout out to the “ Angel for leader “ wars that was going on at the time. Im still not seeing the motive Angel has for wanting a change of power.

Angel has always had a slightly different perspective than Michael and even Saul when it comes surviving, for example, on two occasions I can remember he considers people as resources more than people, firstly, Lizzy, When Michael lets her in he questions how much use she will be(This is also an example of Angel directly challenging Michaels leadership "I need to make the decision when it comes to someone living or dying!"), secondly, Angel is hesitant to rescue Burt for the same reason. This is a mindset he has evolved past lately, but it doesn't mean he wasn't in a different mindset pre-war.

Even if Angel is happy with his position now, it doesn't mean he was in Season 1.

And like I’ve said, He could be hiding something with scratch. But that alone is not reason to call him the traitor, maybe that is a little suspicious, but to guarantee that he is absolutely and most definitely under all circumstances the traitor, is far fetched. The other reasons you’re giving me, either I’m not understanding them properly or they don’t hold water.

Angel wars are a helluva lot easier when you and crowbar arent involved lol

Hey! You saying I'm an easy opponent?