Chapter 45-3: Distorted Truths

[Cabbage Patch]

...Maybe it is just the logical consequence when Riley finally ticks out and goes all Guantanamo on Tardust ...

This is a huge relief! I was afraid that we were on the verge of losing our beloved Riley to the Dark Side. But if Tardust is facing "Guantanamo" treatment he can look forward to decent living conditions, scrupulous observance of his personal beliefs, and occassional bouts of mildly insistent, but strictly controlled questioning.

[Footbutt]

This is a huge relief! I was afraid that we were on the verge of losing our beloved Riley to the Dark Side. But if Tardust is facing "Guantanamo" treatment he can look forward to decent living conditions, scrupulous observance of his personal beliefs, and occassional bouts of mildly insistent, but strictly controlled questioning.

...and treadmills made in the USA!

[LiamKerrington]

This is a huge relief! I was afraid that we were on the verge of losing our beloved Riley to the Dark Side. But if Tardust is facing "Guantanamo" treatment he can look forward to decent living conditions, scrupulous observance of his personal beliefs, and occassional bouts of mildly insistent, but strictly controlled questioning.

Well, yeah ... I guess you caught me with my trousers down. I was referring to the not so sweet and prejudiced stories about Guantanamo ... Am guilty as charged ... I guess news here in Europe have a somewhat different angle when looking at Guantanamo ...

[Verse]

Now you're just plain high if you think that guy in the yard was innocent. You said so yourself, "murderers... rapists... and thieves." As for enslavement? Who was in charge at the Mall? I forget. His name... started with a D... Darren? Daryl? Durai? It's been so long, I've lost perspective on history. None of them are innocents. As for her brother going to jail for her? That's between the two of them. The only person grasping at straws here is you and your staunch refusal to see the story from any perspective other than the one you hold to be the right one.

I meant innocent of the crime he was accused of. That is my fault for making that clear. She accussed him of sleeping on the job and letting a tanker get stolen on his shift and not hers. So he was innocent in that regards. He was beat until he 'admitted' the crime. He was cut as well and threatened to be left alive outside until he confessed to a crime he didn't commit. Then when he did she shot and killed him.

It's not that I refuse to believe in any other perception. I don't think Burt is innocent and he very well did get into a pissing contest with her. I just don't think that is the cause of everything. If you take out all the other stuff... then yes. You would be right. When you add in what else we know, her forcing Kulani to be a rat via kidnapping, Having Kulani shot at Durai to start the fight, killing a man to cover her tracks and placing blame on him.... then it looks bad on her part.

I personally think it was Durai. As far as we know he was not aware of the history between Burt and Scratch. That he only became aware of the The Tower when they followed Saul back.

[Osiris]

not nearly enough pages bro. we will beat this dead horse! dammit!

Hush, fucker. I'll deal with you later.

[Osiris]

Well, then don't forget that it was Scratch who started to get some heat into the situation; when Latch and Saul started to bargain and Lizzy wanted to join, Scratch barked a threat, which then started and fueled the mutual hatred between her and Burt. Also: Since there are two pigheads, the whole escalation is the result of the actions and reactions of both. Scratch, too, especially with knowing that she had no ammo at her hand, could have backed off, licked her "emotional wounds" and could have simply ignored what has happened. But she didn't - instead she decided to tell her mirror-image that she would have more mighty balls than anyone else, especially Burt. That's kind of f*cked up ...



Too bad that this is true for almost any dead one killed by other human beings.
Pegs did not shoot to kill LAtch; she shot at a Maller appearing in a window, because she was frightened to death and because she was cornered; she pulled the trigger several times, and she probably expected someone to die, but this was not her intention. I take it that Pegs hoped to only wound him and make him flee, because she herself did not want to be shot or at least captured. And all this happened during an attempt of the Mallers to attack, raid, maybe take over the Tower. Ok, Pegs could have acted differently: She could have set up a pot of tea, some biscuits and hope that she would play some turns of Romé with a Maller, because that is why the Mallers only attacked - they wanted to play, and poor Pegs got it all wrong., over-reacted and cold-bloodedly killed a Maller ... Yeah, right ...

Speaking of the attack: Considering the whole picture the Tower was attacked because of the "rat's behaviour", aka Kalani's efforts of betrayal. But one must not forget who started it all: Scratch made him act like he did. He informed the Mallers, the Mallers considered an attack, Scratch ordered Kalani to start the shooting in order to fake a counter-attack, and in the combat that took place her brother was shot. So actually Scratch has to take some huge pile of responsibility for the death of her own brother. She is to blame, and not Pegs actually defending herself.

Best wishes!
Liam

And we're back to inferring intent... see how shitty and circular this argument is? Lizzy should never had thrown her hat into the ring, and Scratch never would have taken it as an act of aggression, and things would have ended differently. Burt could have simply shut his mouth, and put his own ego aside, and backed down... but he didn't. You're putting a lot of emphasis on what isn't on the tape, while being entirely dismissive of what is.

As for the rat attack... Scratch was under Durai's command. That's all there is to it. She may have acted as his commander on the field, but he was the one pulling the strings. It was his hunt for power. Now it's all Scratch's hunt to avenge a loved one. Wait, that's Riley.

[Osiris]

I meant innocent of the crime he was accused of. That is my fault for making that clear. She accussed him of sleeping on the job and letting a tanker get stolen on his shift and not hers. So he was innocent in that regards. He was beat until he 'admitted' the crime. He was cut as well and threatened to be left alive outside until he confessed to a crime he didn't commit. Then when he did she shot and killed him.

It's not that I refuse to believe in any other perception. I don't think Burt is innocent and he very well did get into a pissing contest with her. I just don't think that is the cause of everything. If you take out all the other stuff... then yes. You would be right. When you add in what else we know, her forcing Kulani to be a rat via kidnapping, Having Kulani shot at Durai to start the fight, killing a man to cover her tracks and placing blame on him.... then it looks bad on her part.

I personally think it was Durai. As far as we know he was not aware of the history between Burt and Scratch. That he only became aware of the The Tower when they followed Saul back.

I would agree with that to a point. I think Durai's hand in all of this is too often glossed over simply because Scratch is the more attractive villain. You can look at the negotiation scene, and clearly hear exactly what incident heightens tensions on both sides. Lizzy had no reason to get involved. It's a dead horse (fuck you, Todd, I'll talk about it whenever I want), I know, but it has always been a sticking point for me that, on the whole, tower residents actions have been considered just, and necessary to survive. They've almost always been considered (again, broad generalization, so don't jump on my tits about it) to be acts of defence or simply matters of survival. They've been accepted. It was okay for Burt to whip his dick out. It was okay for Pegs to shoot and kill. It was okay for CJ to spy, and gather information on anyone and everyone because in the end it proves a benefit. It was okay for bitten to be allowed to turn for study.

What makes me curious is how people will react if Riley does (which seems likely) torture Tardust into giving up information--something Scratch did--in order to find her white whale. If... IF she manages to kill Scratch, to avenge Angel (who turned out to be a part of her extended family, and likely a criminal) is the celebration for the fact that Scratch dies, or that Riley succeeds in her quest? Why wouldn't we applaud Scratch when she finally catches up with Pegs, and puts her down for killing her brother? That's really what bothers me most about it. We're okay with one, but not the other, even though they are the same act for the same reason.

[LiamKerrington]

You're putting a lot of emphasis on what isn't on the tape, while being entirely dismissive of what is.

Something tells me that this is true for you, too. As you say: we keep circling.
As it turns out you speak in favor of Scratch without considering all the things she could have swallowed instead of going full throttle and heads on into more and more complications. Instead of taking my "arguments" or "opinions", you simply address me by telling me how stupid I am, because I argue based on "intents" or assumptions or whatever. Everything I tell you is based on face value from the WA show and the conclusions I draw out of them; and I put a lot of effort explaining things. And as soon as I get more and more details from the show which in my opinion support my way of thinking, you simply tell me how wrong I am without offering any kind of proof how Scratch would be different from what I say. Instead you simply ignore all the incriminating information that sheds a bad light on Scratch and tell me how wrong I am - and this is especially true when you simplify the war-situation and simply neglect all the influence Scratch has performed to get it rolling.
Sorry - I am tired of this game. I think I made my point. If it comes to Scratch we remain the same ever since we started discussing about it a year ago. And this will remain forever, I guess. So I back done. But that does not mean I give in.

Anyway: Thank you - this argument was rich and something I have missed for quite some time on this forum.

Best wishes!
Liam

[Osiris]

Something tells me that this is true for you, too. As you say: we keep circling.
As it turns out you speak in favor of Scratch without considering all the things she could have swallowed instead of going full throttle and heads on into more and more complications. Instead of taking my "arguments" or "opinions", you simply address me by telling me how stupid I am, because I argue based on "intents" or assumptions or whatever. Everything I tell you is based on face value from the WA show and the conclusions I draw out of them; and I put a lot of effort explaining things. And as soon as I get more and more details from the show which in my opinion support my way of thinking, you simply tell me how wrong I am without offering any kind of proof how Scratch would be different from what I say. Instead you simply ignore all the incriminating information that sheds a bad light on Scratch and tell me how wrong I am - and this is especially true when you simplify the war-situation and simply neglect all the influence Scratch has performed to get it rolling.
Sorry - I am tired of this game. I think I made my point. If it comes to Scratch we remain the same ever since we started discussing about it a year ago. And this will remain forever, I guess. So I back done. But that does not mean I give in.

Anyway: Thank you - this argument was rich and something I have missed for quite some time on this forum.

Best wishes!
Liam

I never said you were stupid. I'm saying my perspective doesn't paint ANY of the characters in a favourable light. Your Pegs argument was based entirely on what you perceive her intent to be:

Pegs did not shoot to kill LAtch; she shot at a Maller appearing in a window, because she was frightened to death and because she was cornered; she pulled the trigger several times, and she probably expected someone to die, but this was not her intention. I take it that Pegs hoped to only wound him and make him flee...

That's a perception, and an assumption of her intent. How does saying that become me calling you stupid? That's me saying you are basing part of your argument on your own perception of what you believe the characters motivations are.

Chill, Winston. Nobody is calling you stupid.

[LiamKerrington]

I never said you were stupid. I'm saying my perspective doesn't paint ANY of the characters in a favourable light. Your Pegs argument was based entirely on what you perceive her intent to be:



That's a perception, and an assumption of her intent. How does saying that become me calling you stupid? That's me saying you are basing part of your argument on your own perception of what you believe the characters motivations are.

Chill, Winston. Nobody is calling you stupid.

You are wrong. I don't base my opinions based on favorable or non-favorable lights. First I take the facts from the show, and then I draw my conclusions and establish my opinions. So the "favorable light" is not my starting point - as you seem to assume - , but the very result of listening, analyzing, understanding, concluding ... It is obvious that both of us have a very different approach towards this. And I have some trouble believing you, when you say that your persepctive doesn't pay any of the characters in a favourable light. All your efforts regarding Scratch contradict you.
This leads nowhere. And since we are very far off #45-3 already I don't see any point into getting into a new discussion about how who perceives and understands the WA show and/or WA characters.
You did not call me stupid, right. But you let me feel like being such a guy. I am out and about - now for real.

Best wishes!
Liam