Season 2 opener, war with Mallers

[Dave]

First, by way of introduction I'd just like to say I'm really enjoying the podcasts. I discovered them about a month ago and listened all the way through from the start, and now I'm eagerly anticipating episode 18. Great job on the podcast!

That said, I'm about to get critical, but that's because I think the show is good. You don't spend time thinking about something you don't care about, right?

(Also, sorry if this has come up before, though I didn't see it. I avoided coming to the forums for a while so as to not risk spoilers.)

There's something that's been bugging me about the whole war with the "Mallers" that opened season two. Actually, two things.

One, how were the Mallers able to get a whole group of 30 to 40 people to surround the building in the middle of the night when individuals can't seem to even leave the door of the Tower without getting attacked almost immediately? 30 people, making that much noise in the middle of the night... I don't understand what explanation there was for the convenient absence of zombies that lasted long enough for the Mallers to stage an attack.

More problematic for me, though, was Michael's counter-strategy. As soon as I clued in that the Mallers were surrounding the building, I immediately assumed the people in the Tower would drop the sweat-jars and call in the zombie calvary right off. It made sense because the Tower is already fortified against a zombie threat, so potentially zillions of zombies could show up to eat the Mallers, and the Tower could wait it out.

What the Tower is not fortified against are enemies who use ladders, vehicles, and weapons.

So the whole defense made no sense. They basically allowed the human attackers to weaken the Tower in a way the zombies couldn't, and then they called in the zombies after enough damage had been done to make the zombies an even bigger threat than they would have been otherwise.

In short, why not call in the zombies with the sweat-jars right away? Is there some reason I'm just not seeing? :confused:

[cPT.cAPSLOCK]

I have to say, I'm a little shocked I didn't think of this myself while I was listening this.

For your first thing you could say that, because they were armed reasonably well and their group consisted of pretty rough people (the prisoner stereotype works out a lot to get time pass quicker). They would have much less trouble with the occasional groups of Zs. Then again, with such a large group there's also more sweat, so they would not only attract more Zs by sound but also by smell.

I can't really think of anything to explain the second one, and it's been a while since I listened this part of the series.

The only other thing I can think of is that they feared there would be so much Zs that even their fairly Z-specific defenses wouldn't stop them. And hey, death by bullets is less painful than being eaten alive.

I guess we'll just have to forgive our dear writers, because in general, they're very consistent and keen on details

[Kc]

Couple of points I'll comment on. The first one, the sweat, was a last resort. When they did it in small quantities they had small amounts, large quantities, large amounts of z's. At what point would they trade one threat for another, and that's after they figured out there was no way to fend off the Mallers with guns and molotovs alone. The Mallers were being attacked on two fronts, from the front and the rear, from any Z's that were attracted to the sound. They were losing for a majority of the battle, while the people of the tower were doing reasonably well against the attackers, until it went too far. In some people's mind the sweat was the first resort, where for Michael, it was a last resort. It's one thing to be shot, another to be torn apart from something trying to eat you...

The 2nd, how could they get into the location quietly... the Maller's would have to have a way to kill the whatever Z's were in the area quietly. (Details might come up later about this)

3rd. Did anyone in the tower think there would be a large coordinated attack with ladders, etc? Not to the extent that it happened. Burt warned that they should have fortified moreso sooner, but that warning went unheard and they suffered the consequences. Until that point, they had no reason to think the Mallers would attack with such force.

Don't know if that answered your questions...

[Ra1th]

interesting, so the mallers have a secret weapon of their own.

yeah i have to say when the mallers showed up, and most of the tower was low on ammo, low on sober soldiers, just in really bad shape for a fight, the first thing that crossed my mind was SWEAAAAT BOOOTTLESS!!! USE 'EM, USE EM' NOWWW!!! but storywise, im glad they didnt cause it lead to some serious action in chapter 12. but yeah now their tower is screwed.

[fraggot]

They never truly said Bill was culpret of calling the Mallers and being the traitor other then stealing supplies, I'm curious to know who that is. Cause even though he stole things, he was up on the top floor unaware of what was really going on downstairs until he came down there. So I still think someone else is not who they truly say who they are. Maybe Kalani? Maybe someone you wouldn't expect?

[TCM Revolver]

So I still think someone else is not who they truly say who they are. Maybe Kalani? Maybe someone you wouldn't expect?

That is the puzzling thing about it. I assumed that the group away from the tower is innocent. correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Kalani in the arena with the rest right b4 the war broke out?? I am really leaning towards Kelly.

[Dave]

Respectfully, I have to disagree with the counterpoints raised.

While it's true that Team Tower (just for a convenient moniker) might not have anticipated pipe bombs and fire trucks, it was plainly obvious that the Mallers would use guns, be able to use doors and navigate through obstacles better than zombies, and in general provide a different mode of assault. Team Tower had already faced a zombie swarm earlier in season one (maybe more than once, though my memory is fuzzy on that), so they knew they could survive masses of zombies.

Further, when the zombies show up, there will be thirty or more people out in the open running around and possibly running away, drawing the zombie horde away from the Tower in the end anyway.

Add to that the fact that Team Tower knew they had limited ammunition and some of their people were incapacitated, the sweat-jar gambit was just staring me in the face from moment one.

Actually, the best strategy for Team Tower would have been to say to the Mallers over the CB radio, "I wouldn't attack if I were you. You're out there exposed to the zombies, and we know a way to call them."

There is also the question of the Maller's strategy and goals. If they are willing to use pipe bombs to so thoroughly destroy the defenses of the Tower, then they must not be interested in actually taking it, because whatever damage they do, then that's damage they will have to deal with when defending themselves from zombies, should they succeed. If you're going to bring 30 people and actually try and take and hold the Tower, then destroying it is counter productive.

If the goal is to just destroy the Tower in the people in it, then why not just send two or three people to chuck enough pipe bombs to blow a hole in the side of the building and let the zombies do the rest?

I'm afraid to me this is a bit of a case of "writer's hand". I don't know if that's a common term or not, but basically it's when the writer's motivations become apparent enough that you can see them tweaking the internal logic of the story to get to where they want.

They had an idea for a great premise, a war between two factions of zombie survivors. And it is a great premise. I can't really think of any other zombie stories where that has happened, and I found it exciting to listen it.

The difficulty is that the great premise is hard to make work because of the internal logic of the world they have created. They've clearly established that individuals can't go walking in the street openly, especially at night, because of the zombie threat, and yet the writers want to have 30 people with guns assemble around the Tower.

Here's where the writer's hand comes in. They just write it as if, for unexplained reasons, the zombies just don't show up for this period of time. Great premise achieved, but story logic denied. I think the same is true for why Team Tower didn't use the sweat-jars from the top. If they did, the great premise is lost. So the writers just wrote in some vague dialoge for Michael near the end of the Maller fight where he conveys that he considered the sweat-jars a last resort. But actually, there really is no good logic backing up Micheal's decision to wait on sweat-jar deployment.

So while I enjoyed the ride, afterwards I was left a little disappointed by the inconsistencies. I would have liked to see a Maller assault that isn't just an assault of two warring factions, but two warring factions that have to fight within the confines of a zombie reality.

What if the Mallers did intend to just destroy the defenses and let the zombies clear out the rest? Then if Team Tower threatened to call in the zombies earlier while they were out there, we could have had a tense negotiation, punctuated by skirmishes.

What if the Mallers used zip lines to get to the roof (or higher floors) and started their assault from the top down, and the noise brought in zombies around the base of the tower. Then Team Tower is between a rock and a hard place.

What if the Mallers used their inside man to slip a team in through the lobby, one by one?

There are many ways to look at it, but my overall note to the writers, which I hope they'll take as constructive criticism, is that I think there is so much potential in writing the conflict between the Mallers and Team Tower within the established logic that zombies are not just a recurring threat, but also an environmental constant, a potential weapon, and a bargaining point.

[Wicked Sid]

Um, Dave? There are some points in your post that were kind of addressed in Kc's post a few up, mainly why the Z's weren't really an issue until the end. Just wanted to let you know.

[Z Sniper]

I thought it a bit peculiar that the zombies kept their distance during the attack and all the noise,...but I'm thinking there's much more to this.

To Dave, I say this. What if, what if, what if? How much logic does one have at first after a night of drinking? We're also assuming that the Mallers have sharp tactics, other than just being a brute force. Prisoner's I believe they were, right? I believe that they're line of thinking is more about vengeance and taking all than anything real strategic. However,...I think someone in that group has something in store for us in the future and that I can't wait to see. You'll see that during episodes we get to discover a little more about previous episodes making me, and I think I can speak for those who have assisted in downloading this podcast over 2 million times, a bit anxious about listening to the next episode. To Kc I say, RIGHT ON!

[Dave]

Wicked Sid, I read Kc's points, but since I failed to convey my objections to them, I'll directly respond.

First, there is the idea that Team Tower was unsure about how to weigh the threat of zombies against the threat of the Mallers. I'm just not sure I can suspend my disbelief that there was any doubt or confusion about the differences between fighting humans and fighting zombies. Michael, Angel, Saul, and Burt should be able to easily see differences, such as the fact that when fighting zombies, you can stay on the balcony and drop molatovs, but with humans you can't go near the windows or you'll get shot.

Let me put it this way - what exactly were they worried would happen if too many zombies showed up? That their tower would be surrounded? That's happened before, and they are prepared for it. What should they be worried about in facing the Mallers? All sorts of knowns and unknowns that they are not prepared for. Thus, easy choice.

Second, about the Mallers having the ability to kill zombies in the area quietly. Well, if they have some secret tactic for doing so, then I guess we'll find out later. However, I'm still not sure I understand why zombies didn't start showing up in masses when pipe bombs went off. In other words, I can believe the Mallers have a way of clearing a path before the fight. But during?

And third, true, Team Tower didn't know the Mallers had a fire truck and other tactics, but they did know they have successfully defended the Tower against zombie hordes before. It circles back to my point one above. Do you fight a known threat you have prepared for, or an unknown threat that you haven't? For me to understand why Micheal made what seems to me such an obviously wrong choice, I'd need more depth of reasoning.

Anyway, since this seems very nitpicky, I just want to say that the actual flow of the battle was gripping, engaging, and full of worthwhile character development. So once I could see that I would have to suspend my disbelief about not using the sweat-jar defense up front, I rather enjoyed it.

My hope is not to merely pick a flaw in the story, my hope is this: wars between rag-tag factions in desperate times has been explored before, from Lord of the Flies to Lost. What sets apart We're Alive from those other scenarios is the zombies. So putting the zombies aside as a contextual factor until the end of the fight seemed to me to not take advantage of what makes We're Alive so good.

Lastly, Z Sniper, I agreed on your point about wondering why the zombies did not show up during the noise of the fight.

However, on your other point, it's too easy to just excuse away character motivations by saying they were drunk or not thinking clearly or those kinds of things which essentially say that a character could of known something, but didn't. It's an art, not a science, to balance believable flawed characters with plot development that seems rational. However, in the end, when it comes down to it, exciting choices don't come from characters who make bad decisions, it comes from characters in situations when there is no easy right or wrong.

Also note - I'm one of the 2 million downloading the podcast and eagerly watching my RSS feed for more. So again, I just want to keep emphasizing, I love the show. Shows that aren't interesting merely get ignored. Shows that are good inspire thought and debate.