He wanted to be recognized for the position of leader. Its just a sleight to his pride.
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He wanted to be recognized for the position of leader. Its just a sleight to his pride.
Saying Angel has accepted Michael as the leader of the tower by chapter 5, as late as chapter 20, Angel seems disgruntled at not being considered for the position.Quote:
Originally Posted by WestonWisdom
You seem to have missed the point when I mentioned his appearance at the party, he was late to the party, he could have done it while everyone else was at the party.
Perhaps the Scratch-Angel link is too far of a jump, but this is a theory section, also, Angel doesn't want to shout Datu when he first claims to recognise him, but he wants to shoot Scratch as soon as he sees her[/QUOTE]
Michael had stepped down as leader after the war. Burt had taken command, and then burt had given up command. Leadership was changing. Angel wanting a shot at leadership during a a point when a change of power is going on is different from hhim being disgruntled and not liking the way thing are being run. All he says is a quip saying he’d liked to have been considered for leadership, then falls under Michaels command, and acts as his second in command immediately after. There is no evidence of him being angry with the way thing are being run. He never actively states, Michael I think you should step down as leader and let me be in charge. The quip just said, it would have been nice to b have been considered for leadership during the election process of the next leader. Very different from wanting to overthrow the leader and call in the mallers
Heres the problem with your party theory. COULD HAVE does not cut it. That’s a huge leap of faith. And how was angel late to the party? You’ll have to explain that to me.
Why would angel care if Datu recognizes him or not. As far as Angel is concerned, he went to the building to see his girlfriend not ogle at the maintinence guy. Not everyone is super observant, the only reason datu could have recognized him is because he came to the tower often to see his girlfriend. The only reason he would have said he didn’t recognize datu is because he actually didn’t recognize datu because he was at the tower to see his girlfriend. Why would he care about some maintinence guy looking at him or not.
He want to shoot scratch on sight, which is interesting. It could be because she’s a maller, it could be because he recognizes her from somewhere. Its prly the latter but that has nothing to do with him beign the traitor. If he was the traitor, why would he want to shoot scratch? That makes no sense. Why shoot the mallers’ second in command?
I could see Kelly, Datu, Kalani, and possibly Burt as the rat. What if the Mallers planted Burt in that bathroom for Saul and Angel to find? Kelly is a more likely candidate than Burt, but it's just a theory. Kelly was a bit of a bitch in the beginning (Tommy's unfortunate mishap kind of changed her) and Datu had the period of pessimism, which tells me that he may have gotten tired things at the Tower and switched sides. Does anyone else think I have a point?
Its a stretch to assume that Burt was planted in his bathroom for Angel and Saul. At that time they prly didnt even know of the tower's existence. Besides, they had way better opportunities to sneak people into the tower, when the tower had the we're alive sign up and was letting in any survivor they could. Plus burt's story checks out that he was being hunted by a smart one from raydon labsQuote:
Originally Posted by Crabb90
Just to give you feedback, why would they plant him there?
How could they have known they'd be at the store within that time frame and that they weren't just stragglers and that they would have a place of residence worthy of taking?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
Michael had stepped down as leader after the war. Burt had taken command, and then burt had given up command. Leadership was changing. Angel wanting a shot at leadership during a a point when a change of power is going on is different from hhim being disgruntled and not liking the way thing are being run. All he says is a quip saying he’d liked to have been considered for leadership, then falls under Michaels command, and acts as his second in command immediately after. There is no evidence of him being angry with the way thing are being run. He never actively states, Michael I think you should step down as leader and let me be in charge. The quip just said, it would have been nice to b have been considered for leadership during the election process of the next leader. Very different from wanting to overthrow the leader and call in the mallers
Heres the problem with your party theory. COULD HAVE does not cut it. That’s a huge leap of faith. And how was angel late to the party? You’ll have to explain that to me.
Why would angel care if Datu recognizes him or not. As far as Angel is concerned, he went to the building to see his girlfriend not ogle at the maintinence guy. Not everyone is super observant, the only reason datu could have recognized him is because he came to the tower often to see his girlfriend. The only reason he would have said he didn’t recognize datu is because he actually didn’t recognize datu because he was at the tower to see his girlfriend. Why would he care about some maintinence guy looking at him or not.
He want to shoot scratch on sight, which is interesting. It could be because she’s a maller, it could be because he recognizes her from somewhere. Its prly the latter but that has nothing to do with him beign the traitor. If he was the traitor, why would he want to shoot scratch? That makes no sense. Why shoot the mallers’ second in command?[/QUOTE]
I mean he was late to the party, as in, literally late, Saul mentions it, Angel just brushes it off as wanting to make an entrance.
Your explanation of why Angel disagreed with Datu is just as likely as mine in my opinion, If Angel visited the tower enough to allow Datu to think he recognises him, wouldn't Bill recognise him as well?
Not recognising Datu isn't the only possible reason Angel would deny it at all, that's just speculation, my theory at least has precedent, there are two people who recognise angel and he refutes it two times. Even so, that's enough to say Angel disagrees with people who say they recognise him on a regular basis.
And, wild theory, perhaps Scratch knows/knows something about Angel, and wants to get rid of that problem, whats the best way to get of somebody that threatens your position? Kill them, when the group refuses, perhaps scratch uses the relationship to her advantage.
I believe his name is Michael Cross, not Swan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestonWisdom
Bill wouldn’t recognize him because bill was recluse, All bill did was stay in his apartment all day. He didn’t know about anyone in the tower at all. He barely knew datu the maintenance guy, who worked and LIVED at the tower. No reason for him to recognize angel. An apartment which is on the 14th floor of the tower, very different from Cindy who I believe was on the 2nd floor. The chances that they’d run into each other, is very low.
The difference between your theory and mine? The theory that Datu recognizes Angel because angel visited his girlfriend a lot is accepted by almost everyone on the forum. It’s the most likely conclusion that can be drawn given the facts that we have been presented. To suggest that Angel not wanting datu to recognize him is because he’s the traitor is far fetched in comparison. Datu would recognize him, because Datu is out and about doing maintinence work, and he is very familiar with the tower. Datu would be able to notice changes or people other than the tower’s normal inhabitants a lot easier than Angel would. Angel comes to the tower to see his girlfriend, he doesn’t live there, he doesn’t know it all that well. To him, everything there is new to him on visits. He wouldn’t notice a maintenance guy, but to Datu, Angel would be something new and he’d take notice of him.
Neither scratch nor Datu say they recognize him. They say that he seems FAMILIAR. I’ve explained why Datu knows angel. So that cuts out one half of your theory. That leaves scratch. I’ll give you this, there is a mystery surrounding what the connection is between scratch and Angel, but to claim that that one connection makes him the traitor is a giant leap of faith.
I believe Bill is only a recluse after the infection, being terrified of people "coming and ripping your fucking face off" changes a person. I also don't believe it's ever mentioned if Bill has a job or not, presuming he doesn't(he owns the building), thats a lot of free time to spend doing other things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
Just because it's accepted by the majority does not mean it is the correct answer(cleverly ignoring occam's razor), the only reason I question the belief that Datu recognises him because Angel visited the tower beforehand is that people say he looks familiar twice, and Angel denies it, twice.
Perhaps we have a different interpretation of the interaction's between Angel and Scratch, wanting to shoot someone just for being there isn't his finest moment, it seemed to me like they had interacted previously, and desperation that people within the tower could learn of this interaction led him to make the suggestion that they "just shoot them"?
I've mentioned several things that could make him the traitor, I don't mean to imply that the only reason he could be the traitor, I'm sorry, but your explanation of Angel being happy within the hierarchy of the tower doesn't really satisfy me.
You say "could," when in your starting post you clearly stated "without a doubt." Kind of changed your mind, haven't you?
Trying to defuse the situation, Angel is the rat, without a doubt, nothing Ra1th has said has dissuaded me at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Sid
He knew who Scratch and latch were and that they were mallers. Its not so bad to shoot mallers on site. But yes, I agree with you there is definitely a connection between scratch and Angel.Quote:
Originally Posted by WestonWisdom
Yes the majority can be wrong, but up until now, this hasn’t been an issue, and it was mostly because of occam’s razor. I’m sure if you ask Kc the question, he’d give you an answer. He’s usually really good about letting us know when we’re debating something that has no value.
Even if Bill wasn’t a recluse before the zombie apocalypse. The chances that Angel and Bill would have run into each other are really low. Think about it Bill lives on the 14th floor of the tower. The majority of people use the elevator. Especially If they had to go to the 14th floor. We know for a fact that Bill didn’t really keep a eye on the tower and its residence. So he wouldn’t be wandering about the random corridors of the building, on floors that werent his own. The only time they would have run into each other is at the elevator. Its unlikely that they ran into each other.
Go over the things that make him a traitor again?
You stated that Datu recognized him, and that Angel didn’t recognize datu
That Bill didn’t recognize him, when datu did
And that there is an unknown connection between Scratch and Angel
And that Angel wanted command from Michael.
Am I missing anything?
I think either you are misunderstanding or I have misrepresented my point in regards to people recognising him, Firstly, I think multiple people claiming to recognise him is suspicious, Secondly, I think the fact that he denies it when it happens also points to either him genuinely not remembering him or him trying to hide something that the other aren't aware of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
Yeah, I don't think Angel is happy with the way things are going in the tower, In my opinion, he wouldn't have made a (pathetic)play for power in Chapter20(Much like Steven did when Burt was in charge?),
And while my previous posts seem to show that the mystery surrounding Angel and Scratch is the only reason I believe him to be the traitor, that's not the case, but I do think Angel's actions around her show that he is trying to hide something, shooting a survivor(regardless of background) isn't something to be proud of.
WILD OFFSHOOT, DON'T HOLD THIS AGAINST ME, TOTALLY DISREGARD THIS IN THE ARGUEMENT
An important thing to remember about the way WA is told is that, just because we don't hear about it, doesn't mean it isn't happening, If Angel was the traitor, or disgruntled with Michael, would he write it down? Especially knowing Michael has a habit of just ripping peoples journals away from them at a a moments notice.
The "unknown tower occupant" option is getting a lot of love, yet not much discussion. Other than for dramatic reasons, why couldn't it be one of the 12-ish people who don't have a major role?
These are all basically strangers to the tower who came in while the welcome sign was up. One of them could very well have been an Eastern Bay refugee who straggled in as a survivor then later made contact with his old compatriots. Could have run into the Mallers while out scavenging and then later by radio in a continuing arrangement.Given that the listeners are not given much in the way of back stories on these minor characters it could be easily written in this way.
Even if not a former inmate, the background characters could easily share the same motives. They aren't important, just doing the day-to-day grunt work of survival. If this was a caste system, they would be the bottom level. Plenty of excuses for resentment and treachery.
I know it's not as fun as picking on Angel, but it makes more sense to me.
You raise a good point, I think Stevens little outburst could show that the strangers in the tower aren't happy with not being a "favorite"Quote:
Originally Posted by wooly
Tommy I think its the logical guess because he was the guy running the cameras and the technical gadgets before the "Tower War"
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestonWisdom
And I’m telling you for the Datu case, it was almost surely the first case. Genuinely not remembering who the maintenance guy of his girlfriend’s apartment building was. He might be hiding something with scratch though. But that’s one situation not two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestonWisdom
It was not a play for power at all. How is “It would have been nice to have been considered for leadership” taken as bitter disgruntlement with the way things are run. What has Michael or Burt done, that Angel has taken serious issue with? I’m not seeing what Angel should be so angry about, that he’d want to overthrow Michael and Burt. And if that WAS his intention, then he wouldn’t just let it be known that he’d like to be considered for leadership. IMO it was just a passing remark, maybe even as a fan shout out to the “ Angel for leader “ wars that was going on at the time. Im still not seeing the motive Angel has for wanting a change of power.
And like I’ve said, He could be hiding something with scratch. But that alone is not reason to call him the traitor, maybe that is a little suspicious, but to guarantee that he is absolutely and most definitely under all circumstances the traitor, is far fetched. The other reasons you’re giving me, either I’m not understanding them properly or they don’t hold water.Quote:
Originally Posted by WestonWisdom
I think Kelly's uprising(s), Michael's narration before the party, Burt's narration as he was carrying Tommy through the hallway, and Simon's attempted escape is some more evidence that the general populace is displeased with life in the Tower. But I still don't think it was someone we don't know. Steven served a plot purpose in getting Lizzy booted from the Tower. I don't think he's got too much else to offer as it stands story wise right now. I believe too much is being made at his "power play" against Burt. He immediately backed down when Burt challenged him. Steven is a talker, he is not an action taker.Quote:
Originally Posted by WestonWisdom
P.S. Its nice to see Ra1th fighting with people and me not be in the middle of it for once.
Angel wars are a helluva lot easier when you and crowbar arent involved lolQuote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
Dead horse, we are never going to see eye to eye on this I can see.
Angel has always had a slightly different perspective than Michael and even Saul when it comes surviving, for example, on two occasions I can remember he considers people as resources more than people, firstly, Lizzy, When Michael lets her in he questions how much use she will be(This is also an example of Angel directly challenging Michaels leadership "I need to make the decision when it comes to someone living or dying!"), secondly, Angel is hesitant to rescue Burt for the same reason. This is a mindset he has evolved past lately, but it doesn't mean he wasn't in a different mindset pre-war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
Even if Angel is happy with his position now, it doesn't mean he was in Season 1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
Hey! You saying I'm an easy opponent? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
I was just looking at the poll results, Kc voted for "Unknown Tower Occupant". Is this just a red herring?
I hope so or we have all wasted a lot of our time.Quote:
Originally Posted by lkiam
Although it would make me very relieved that I haven't spared this particular theory too much thought :p
So episode 20-3 combined with 21-1 have really got me wondering about who the rat could be. Little details are slowly being revealed and I yet I can't quite put them together in such a way that I am 100% certain who the main rat is. I'm particularly concerned with the brief conversation Scratch has with Tardust, in which she says she has to go drop Pippin off (plant a new rat), then he asks "what about the other one?", she replies "we still have her" then he says, no, "the one already there", to which she replies "we haven't heard from them in a while"
At first I had doubts they were referring to a rat. I believed that maybe they were talking about dropping Pippin off at an outpost, which would mean that the others they referred to were just gaurds at different outposts. But because Pippin arrives at the Tower in 21-1, I think it is safe to assume Scratch meant to drop him off there and plant him in the Tower as a new rat. This would mean that when Scratch said, "we still have her" that one of the rats is a female, KELLY!? Maybe. But then that could also mean that the one they haven't heard from in a while could be someone who died, like Tommy (seems unlikely) or Bill.
Any thoughts?
I now totally see Scratch/Riley - Scriley, Ratch?Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
I think one of the people they are talking about could be a mole inside the Colony as well
Nah,not likely. If that were so, then Riley would also be related to Latch (John) and would have been hella pissed that Peggs killed him. So then Riley would take her best chef's cleaver and carve Peggs a new smile, about six inches lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eitri
Though I could see Riley totally betraying the Tower; she's French.
Riley: "Yes, it was me who contacted the mallers. Don't you see? I couldn't stand Peggs cooking any longer! That and you men are too thick headed to see that I am not interested in you!"
Saul: "I knew you played for the other team; you are like a Wo-Man. heh heh"
Riley: "Yes, but did you know I wanted Lizzie? And if I could not have her, no one could! I told the Mallers where to find her!"
DUN DUN DUUUUUN!!!!!
He has a different mindset. Everyone does. You cant call someone a traitor for having a different mindset. Burt has a different mindset, his priorities are based on rugged survival, he was an enlisted marine, that’s how they trained him. Michael has an intelligence mindset, he was army intel, he wants to find out more about the zombies. Saul was a medic , or he went through a lot of medic training, his goals are to save everyone he can no matter what. Angel went through officer candidate school. With OCS, they train you to look at soldiers as resources, its unfortunate, but that’s war. People die, and sometimes officers have to send their men on missions, they know they might not return from. Everyone has a different mindset, and if someone else was in charge, they’d do things differently. Personally I don’t see Angel being jealous of michael’s leadership.Quote:
Originally Posted by WestonWisdom
As for Angel leaving saul. Angel explained his reasoning on why he didn’t take saul pretty clearly. They didn’t know if saul was still human or not. His training told him that sometimes sacrifices must be made for the overall good of the people. Had saul turned while angel was carrying him upstairs, he would have killed everyone in that stairwell. Had saul turned while he was upstairs on the roof, with the people, he would have killed a lot of people. And you should take notice. Angel was conflicted on the issue. He explained his reasoning, but he was on the fence about it. Had Michael said anything, I’m certain angel would have done as Michael said. But Michael didn’t say anything either. Michael was also conflicted on the issue, and he did the same thing angel did. And need I mention burt? Burt took off too. So Angel leaving saul behind, Michael and Burt are equally to blame.
Honestly man I don’t think we’re ever gonna see eye to eye. Wanna just call a truce and just wait and see?
Easy opponent? No, But the last big war I was in was two on one against nikvoodoo, and havecrowbarwilltravel, and I got destroyed.Quote:
Originally Posted by WestonWisdom
Sure, my post count will stop rising so quickly, but sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
woooooo no more writing up essaysQuote:
Originally Posted by WestonWisdom
Wait wait....are you saying that Angel won't make decisions without Michael? And you say he's a leader? tsk tskQuote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
Hmm....wonder why you're always defending Angel all by yourself...hmmmm....Quote:
Easy opponent? No, But the last big war I was in was two on one against nikvoodoo, and havecrowbarwilltravel, and I got destroyed.
I'm not restarting anything, I'm just messin' with you ;)
Actually if you look at that thread there were like 3 or 4 people who agreed with me... they just didnt really say or do anything until the major thing had blown over, and then they quipped in. people didnt wanna get stuck in the middle of a war i thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
as for the angel part, I'd say Angel made a difficult decision in that situation and imo, Michael followed through on that decision. But angel was on the fence about it, so had michael or anyone said otherwise, he may have changed his mind. There have been times when Michael changed his mind due to Angel's input
Ok so I am very new to the forums so please forgive me if I don't pick up on the subtle nuances... if any.
Also if you have not heard all the episodes then this will contain spoilers galore, so go listen instead.
And if this has already been discussed ( I checked and didn't see it) or the most recent episode debunked it then just move along.
I have been listening for about 9 months now and have heard every episode about 5 or 6 times and every time Burt seems more and more sketchy to me. I have a feeling that he was the rat, although he may not have wanted to be and may not have fully understood the consequences of his actions. There is now way he would have willingly sold out the tower, so whatever someone has over him must be huge. Anyway I have made a list of cases which if read with the assumption that Burt IS the rat make more sense.
1: When we first meet Burt he tells Saul and Angel that someone came in and raided his shop before he got there, and that they must have done it before. He never mentions that he was robbed before the zombie uprising so the raiders must have been someone he knew in say way. Plus he mentions that they got there before he did. I have owned a business and "normally" you do not want to live very far away from it, especially if your "stash" is there. So by what he told us Scratch must have gone to Eastern Bay, broke everyone out, made a convoy of sorts, drove back to the gun shop, and stolen all the guns before Burt got back and during the chaos? Not likely. Something else happened, not certain what did though.
2:In chapter 8 when Latch and Scratch are at the tower "asking for sugar" Michael is freaking out asking how this happened and Burt it freaking out as well and very forcefully blaming Saul. Scratch admits that they did follow Saul but that could have just been to keep Burt's cover. While this example is kinda weak it all plays into me not trusting him.
3: Now here we start with the good stuff. In the Chapter R&R they are discussing having a party and Burt is very much against it. With good reason, his heart is in the right place but again someone must have something over him. He says to Michael " Michael you're in for a big I told you so." He could just be talking about the zombies but if he knew something was about to go down then he would have said the same thing. Maybe another on of those double meanings.
4: Same chapter, R&R. After Bill made his scene in the party Burt rushes up from the guard room to see if everything is alright. He mentions that Tommy was in there now but those two were the ONLY people on guard duty that night before everything went to hell. Everyone else was having a good time drinking it up, while Burt was reluctantly informing the Mallers what was going on.
5: Same chapter R&R. Just a small thing but as soon as Bill Sees Burt he asks him "how the hell are ya?" and Burt responded "Hey how you been?" They should NOT be all buddy buddy since the last time they interacted that we know about was with a bullet. And since Bill stole the supplies maybe they were working together?
6:The war. There are a few big things and a few little ones, Ill roll the little ones into this point. "Before the Mallers attacked Burt said " There next step will be the front door." Possibly he knew that from basic strategy or he could have known the Mallers plan. He also said "You never know with this group." Tiny I know but he said it in such a way that it could have been perceived as if he knew more about them than the rest. I should mention again, because he did fight for the Tower in this chapter, that I do not think Burt wanted to be the rat, he was just forced into it.
7:The War. When they are on the radio talking with the Mallers and Burt steps up to talk Durai (sp?) says " Burt, nice to finally meet you. I have heard so much about you." This could have been in reference to the tanker but it could just as easily been a reference to him being an informant for the Mallers because all scratch knew before was that he was named Burt, he owned the gun store, he was a good shot, and that he was old. It sounds from Durai's voice that he knew quite a bit more than that, even though he mentioned Burt's shooting ability.
8: The War. As some Mallers were sneaking their way on to the Tower Burt says that he will go on the balcony and jump down to take them out. "on the out side it will look like one of them." It did look like one of them because it WAS one of them. The Mallers could obviously see well enough to shoot at some people on the windows and they would have notices his bald head in the firelight. A little joke there but in all reality he would not have even come up with the idea if he was not sure they would not shoot him.
9: Separate Dying Embers. After Burt tries to rally everyone and is pretty much rejected he goes on a quest to find some ammo. This is interesting because Burt is smart enough to know that the Zombies would get him if all he had was a few rounds. It is possible that he thought the Mallers would still be around and would shelter him, even if he never wanted to help them. He knew he would be fine alone because he would not actually be alone.
10: Separate Dying embers. Burt says "All I've ever done since I got here was listen to somebody else tell me what to do!" Another double meaning referring to Michael AND the Mallers possibly?
And that is pretty much it for why I think he is the rat. If you think I am wrong, cool. If you think I'm right, cool. Either way I would love to hear another persons take on this and hopefully I am reading WAY too much into somethings because I don't want this to be true.
-Snickelsox
P.S. Please excuse any typos, my keybard is not working so well right now... and I don't know how to spell :P
Interesting theory, definitely a possibility.My only qualm, so to speak, is that Burt killed 4 or 5 mallers @least during the fight @ the tower. HE even had to double tap one of the mallers. If he was one of the mallers wouldn't he just fired some shots and let them go. Thoughts?
Well he did not want to be the rat, he was "playing" the side of the mallers while wanting to be on the side of the Tower for that particular scenario. Its the same for Bill, why did he help the tower after he hurt it?
But how do you know the stolen items aren't planted there in the elevator to make Bill look guilty? Besides, Bill never got a shot off when he came downstairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snickelsox
Ok so that is a great point and one I had not thought about. While I do not personally think that Bill was set up, mainly because it makes my theory of Burt being the rat a lot less clean, it still does fit for what I think. What it means for my theory however is that there was more than one rat. This could only work in two ways though.
The first is that Burt was working directly with the rat. He could have been the "brains" or the other rat could have been blackmailing him to make him work with the Mallers. If Burt was in fact the "brains" then that would make him a lot more evil than I thought. He would have to be a very good schemer and a very good liar.
The other way that two rats would have worked is if they were given instruction independently of each other. A kind of Right hand not knowing what the left was doing scenario. I like this more because it still means that Burt could have been doing these things reluctantly and not purposefully.
Another thing to keep in mind is that if Burt was evil and DID set up Bill somehow then Bill's death would have been the perfect cover for Burt. Bill would have taken the blame and the sympathy that Burt showed would have made him seem like the least likely suspect and since everyone thought that Bill was the rat and he was dead.
Those two only work if Bill did not steal the food and ammo and was framed.There would still be many questions, how did someone else get the keys? Why would they help the Mallers? And we may never know those, that is if Burt is the rat.
One last thing is that the "chummyness" between Bill and Burt at the party would have made sense if they were working together in some fashion. I would love to hear what anyone thinks about this, yay or nay.
-Snickelsox
I'll take it one point at a time, and hopefully you will see the light!!! :p
Aww, don't be afraid of your theories getting dirty....that's all that happens on here! We all throw dirt at each others theories until we start to question everything about ourselves!Quote:
Originally Posted by Snickelsox
Burt is no "brains" of any operation. Burt couldn't brain himself out of a paper bag...or something. Anyway, he's not a natural brain type, he's a doer. He's the one that makes things happen.Quote:
The first is that Burt was working directly with the rat. He could have been the "brains" or the other rat could have been blackmailing him to make him work with the Mallers. If Burt was in fact the "brains" then that would make him a lot more evil than I thought. He would have to be a very good schemer and a very good liar.
But didn't the ammo lock up and store get ransacked around the same time? You know...when Burt wasn't even in the Tower? And along those lines, if Burt's the rat, why does he steal from his own stockpile? Wouldn't he want as much ammo as possible to take down the Tower from the inside?Quote:
The other way that two rats would have worked is if they were given instruction independently of each other. A kind of Right hand not knowing what the left was doing scenario. I like this more because it still means that Burt could have been doing these things reluctantly and not purposefully.
Bill's death was perfect for whomever the rat is. Even if the Rat didn't steal things and Bill did, Bill takes the rap for all of it.Quote:
Another thing to keep in mind is that if Burt was evil and DID set up Bill somehow then Bill's death would have been the perfect cover for Burt. Bill would have taken the blame and the sympathy that Burt showed would have made him seem like the least likely suspect and since everyone thought that Bill was the rat and he was dead.
Here's the thing: So much had to happen when Burt wasn't there. I really don't think Burt can be the rat. He wasn't there for any of the ratlike activities.Quote:
Those two only work if Bill did not steal the food and ammo and was framed.There would still be many questions, how did someone else get the keys? Why would they help the Mallers? And we may never know those, that is if Burt is the rat.
Bill was being chummy with everyone. And people of similar generations would tend to gravitate towards each other because they would have common things to talk about and common experiences.Quote:
One last thing is that the "chummyness" between Bill and Burt at the party would have made sense if they were working together in some fashion. I would love to hear what anyone thinks about this, yay or nay.
In general, you have good points, but I don't think there's any way Burt is the rat. Especially going back to your idea that Burt planned the raid and knew the people who robbed him. Not really. I betcha if I owned a store called Locked and Loaded and a zombie apocalypse broke out, I'd be shocked if my store didn't get raided. I wouldn't have to know any of them. I owned a gun store. That's more than enough for people to know. That's why Angel and Saul went there in the first place.