Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower?

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Originally Posted by Kc

That's something said in hindsight of course ;) No pun intended.

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Kc.. NOT! LOL. His actions only prove what those of us in the W.D.W.A club have said since day one. Angel works best in tandem, but even then he's wishy washy. Once you get him moving, he's a good cat to have around, but....

I'll use Post Burt Rescue Angel as my examples here:

1. Angel/Kalani/Behemoth episode. Skittles pulled the trigger on the molotov while the two of them were doing their "Who's on First" bit. Kalani came up with the actual strategy. Angel came up with the idea only. Kalani killed the beast.

2. He didn't put his foot down when Lizzy was ejected. He played up the whole i'm hurt, I was tired thing. Man the Puk up! He had enough energy to come downstairs and inquire..... and, wasn't he TOLD by Burt to go back upstairs anyway??

3. The tower was in disarray in multiple areas. It wasn't clean anymore and Burt was having leadership style issues
Angel SHOULD have been Burt's "Grant" (as in Gen Grant). He let Burt flop around like a hooked Catfish on hot Mississippi asphalt.

4. Any person with one leadership pube on their nutts would have had a "Come to Jesus Meeting" with Steven about his derisive attitude. Stevie boy would had a very very clear understanding about his place and his mouth. You can also say that he'd be called out to the woodshed.. if you don't get that saying, how about this: He'd get his ass whooped.

Last, but not least.. dumbeldorf runs out the room and two people end up with lead poisoning.

I'm gonna sign off with this last thing: Wait till Michael hears about this..................

PS.. I waited until I was finished to tell you that W.D.W.A is:
We Don't Worship Angel. I'm not only a subscriber, I'm also the President. ROFL.

Eventually, I think there will be a point where Angel will lead. Whether, it's because of Michael's absence (or death), or a split-up of the Towerfolk. (ie: Two teams, but one group gets separated and needs Angel's leadership) Angel is smarter and tougher than you think... and I'm a member of the Angel fan club, so I've been brainwashed! hahaHAHAH!

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Originally Posted by cupcakezombie

The reason he has the position he has is because he has the military training. People in high ranking military positions always get judged by civilians, but if as you say he is making the right decisions from a military position then it shouldn't change the decisions that he makes or will have to make. There could come a time where his type of choices become critical to the survival of the tower.
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When you're ASSIGNED a duty, that is your DUTY! Take this as experience from someone who's been assigned to Entry Control Point duty at Weapons Storage Areas, guarded NUKES and classified planes. You DON'T leave your post just because an alarm goes off. It's called dereliction of duty. Angel should have got on one of the walkie Talkies and called someone or stuck his head out the door and yelled.

The person on watch isn't the first responder, he/she is the director of those forces.

The main fact is that he DIDN'T think. He was supposed to monitor the.. monitors and Pippin. What if there was another attack from the mallers and the Alarm was a diversion. He'd never know because he left the room. His reaction was, well, a reaction and not calculated thought.
Here's where there's another leadership failure. Overall, Mike will take responsibility of not instituting a checklist or an inter tower communication sytem

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In regards to leaving Hope without saying anything to her, would saying Hope stay here have made any difference? Then on the flip side, taking Hope with him could potentially have been more dangerous. Someone breaking in to get guns is not where you should take a blind girl. We still don't actually know what has happened down at the armory, there could be all hell breaking loose, and Hope staying in the guard room, even with a prisoner is safer. In fact that is probably the first place people will go when they come to check out the alarm.

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First thing is you NEVER leave a kid with a stranger. second thing is you NEVER leave a kid with a potentially dangerous stranger.
Third this is, Angel would have been in the best position to protect Hope if something was going down. I'm going to assume that Angel and the crew are constantly armed, so it'd be an even exchange IF it was the situation.
Angel should have locked the room (if he really felt he had to go) and had Hope tag along until he could have someone trust worthy watch her then ran off to the alarm.
Fourth thing is you don't run haphazard into a potentially dangerous situation. Panic causes more deaths than anything else in an emergency situation. Calm heads and measured steps are needed.

So, now Angel has to deal with the guilt of two possible deaths because reacted instead of taking action.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Kc.. NOT! LOL. His actions only prove what those of us in the W.D.W.A club have said since day one. Angel works best in tandem, but even then he's wishy washy. Once you get him moving, he's a good cat to have around, but....

I'll use Post Burt Rescue Angel as my examples here:

1. Angel/Kalani/Behemoth episode. Skittles pulled the trigger on the molotov while the two of them were doing their "Who's on First" bit. Kalani came up with the actual strategy. Angel came up with the idea only. Kalani killed the beast.

2. He didn't put his foot down when Lizzy was ejected. He played up the whole i'm hurt, I was tired thing. Man the Puk up! He had enough energy to come downstairs and inquire..... and, wasn't he TOLD by Burt to go back upstairs anyway??

3. The tower was in disarray in multiple areas. It wasn't clean anymore and Burt was having leadership style issues
Angel SHOULD have been Burt's "Grant" (as in Gen Grant). He let Burt flop around like a hooked Catfish on hot Mississippi asphalt.

4. Any person with one leadership pube on their nutts would have had a "Come to Jesus Meeting" with Steven about his derisive attitude. Stevie boy would had a very very clear understanding about his place and his mouth. You can also say that he'd be called out to the woodshed.. if you don't get that saying, how about this: He'd get his ass whooped.

Last, but not least.. dumbeldorf runs out the room and two people end up with lead poisoning.

I'm gonna sign off with this last thing: Wait till Michael hears about this..................

PS.. I waited until I was finished to tell you that W.D.W.A is:
We Don't Worship Angel. I'm not only a subscriber, I'm also the President. ROFL.

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I must help defend ANGEL! So... Here's my answers to these issues Crowbar.

1) Angel showed bravery, and leadership, by putting his own life on the line and baiting away a 10ft tall carnivorous monster, so that the Tower could get the MRE's to survive. He put his troops ahead of himself.

2) Angel really WAS hurt when Lizzy was ejected... and he was possibly getting some action that night, so leave 'im alone. :)

3) Burt would not give up his command until he was ready, and after Lizzy left, he relinquished it. He became exhausted, and had Michael (original leader) not returned in time, he may have turned it over to Angel.

4) FYI: Even Michael "caved" to Steven when he pulled his whiny "I don't wanna guard Pippin" BS. Michael didn't ream him out or really give him shit about his attitude. Michael didn't even question Steven when he said he was gonna crack some heads, about Lizzy's ejection. He didn't do shit to Steven.

5) Obviously the Rat is a sneaky lil' SOB, and planned that whomever was on guard duty, would run to check Burt's armory, while they snuck in and shot Pippin. (AND we don't know that Hope's been Shot ;) ) They had this planned for anyone to run and check it out, but it just happened that Hope was left in the room to add to the dramatic suspense!

If he was getting some action that night that actually would be several points against him for being the world's biggest douche and just ignoring what was happening. Burt turned the leadership over to Michael because he knew that the people wanted Michael to lead again. Go back and listen to that transition again. He acknowledged that he didn't have it in him to lead and he saw the people's allegiances changing

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Originally Posted by Rock Daddy

I must help defend ANGEL! So... Here's my answers to these issues Crowbar.

1) Angel showed bravery, and leadership, by putting his own life on the line and baiting away a 10ft tall carnivorous monster, so that the Tower could get the MRE's to survive. He put his troops ahead of himself.

2) Angel really WAS hurt when Lizzy was ejected... and he was possibly getting some action that night, so leave 'im alone. :)

3) Burt would not give up his command until he was ready, and after Lizzy left, he relinquished it. He became exhausted, and had Michael (original leader) not returned in time, he may have turned it over to Angel.

4) FYI: Even Michael "caved" to Steven when he pulled his whiny "I don't wanna guard Pippin" BS. Michael didn't ream him out or really give him shit about his attitude. Michael didn't even question Steven when he said he was gonna crack some heads, about Lizzy's ejection. He didn't do shit to Steven.

5) Obviously the Rat is a sneaky lil' SOB, and planned that whomever was on guard duty, would run to check Burt's armory, while they snuck in and shot Pippin. (AND we don't know that Hope's been Shot ;) ) They had this planned for anyone to run and check it out, but it just happened that Hope was left in the room to add to the dramatic suspense!

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Rock, Rock, Rock... ok my man... where shall I start here?

1. Angel's bravery isn't an indication of anything other than him not dying in a dynamically fluid survival situation that he wasn't prepared to face. Skittles is the one who saved them. Skittles is the one who threw the molotov when Angel couldn't. Skittles fixed the car.
Kalani came up with the actual strategy on how to kill the Behemoth. Angel did what he had to do to survive the situation as it changed around him... barely. There was no leaderhip displayed in those episodes. Kalani didn't defer to him one time.

Here's the crux of leadership: People look to leaders for motivation. If anyone can give me ONE example of anyone looking to Angel or deferring to Angel. I'll STFU about his leadership skills.. er, lack thereof. LOL


2. I didn't say he wasn't really hurt. Here's the point i'm making. In the military, one of the first things you learn is to suck ish up! If you're injured, you acknowledge it, but keep moving. You never let being hurt become an excuse. He was in good enough shape to be wandering around to find out what happened. Mike has a broken arm. One that was wasn't even set. That's a real injury..not just "hurt" and he manned up time and time again with one good wing.
We've never heard that cat say he coudn't do something because of his injury.

3. Burt was tired of TRYING to lead way before the Lizzie thing went down. That was just the straw that broke the camels back. The disent had been brewing for a while. That's the only way Steven's ass could have polluted/influenced the situation.
He damn near french kissed Mike when he showed up alive.
Our boy Angel didn't do anything to help shoulder that burden. If i'm wrong, someone show me how he did please.

4. Mike didn't "Cave" in, he allowed butthead to stay busy, by changing posts. He would have caved if he had just let him not do anything. He simply rotated the posts.

Sir Rock.. thank you for the debate.. so in the words of Michael Buffer..... "Let's get it on!!"

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Rock, Rock, Rock... ok my man... where shall I start here?

1. Angel's bravery isn't an indication of anything other than him not dying in a dynamically fluid survival situation that he wasn't prepared to face. Skittles is the one who saved them. Skittles is the one who threw the molotov when Angel couldn't. Skittles fixed the car.
Kalani came up with the actual strategy on how to kill the Behemoth. Angel did what he had to do to survive the situation as it changed around him... barely. There was no leaderhip displayed in those episodes. Kalani didn't defer to him one time.

Here's the crux of leadership: People look to leaders for motivation. If anyone can give me ONE example of anyone looking to Angel or deferring to Angel. I'll STFU about his leadership skills.. er, lack thereof. LOL


2. I didn't say he wasn't really hurt. Here's the point i'm making. In the military, one of the first things you learn is to suck ish up! If you're injured, you acknowledge it, but keep moving. You never let being hurt become an excuse. He was in good enough shape to be wandering around to find out what happened. Mike has a broken arm. One that was wasn't even set. That's a real injury..not just "hurt" and he manned up time and time again with one good wing.
We've never heard that cat say he coudn't do something because of his injury.

3. Burt was tired of TRYING to lead way before the Lizzie thing went down. That was just the straw that broke the camels back. The disent had been brewing for a while. That's the only way Steven's ass could have polluted/influenced the situation.
He damn near french kissed Mike when he showed up alive.
Our boy Angel didn't do anything to help shoulder that burden. If i'm wrong, someone show me how he did please.

4. Mike didn't "Cave" in, he allowed butthead to stay busy, by changing posts. He would have caved if he had just let him not do anything. He simply rotated the posts.

Sir Rock.. thank you for the debate.. so in the words of Michael Buffer..... "Let's get it on!!"

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Aahh No!!! More valid points!!! Nooooo! LOL At least we can agree that Steven is a butthead.

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Originally Posted by cupcakezombie

The reason he has the position he has is because he has the military training. People in high ranking military positions always get judged by civilians, but if as you say he is making the right decisions from a military position then it shouldn't change the decisions that he makes or will have to make. There could come a time where his type of choices become critical to the survival of the tower.

In regards to leaving Hope without saying anything to her, would saying Hope stay here have made any difference? Then on the flip side, taking Hope with him could potentially have been more dangerous. Someone breaking in to get guns is not where you should take a blind girl. We still don't actually know what has happened down at the armory, there could be all hell breaking loose, and Hope staying in the guard room, even with a prisoner is safer. In fact that is probably the first place people will go when they come to check out the alarm.

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And you'll note that when military personnel make decisions that outrage the public, they don't stay military personnel for much longer after that. They usually get buckled under the pressure of popular opinion and resign. So as the sophists go, so does public opinion. Doesn't matter if its right or wrong, it's all perception.

Again, if he just had that inkling of protect the child by making her hide, this topic stays buried 3 pages deep and someone else resurrects it. He left a 14 year old blind girl out in the open. I never said he should say stay here. I said he should tell the girl who is defenseless to hide.

I fail to understand how this is such a hard concept for people to latch on to. Leaving 14 year old blind girl left with a man you don't trust is not the way to protect a child, and it's really kinda odd that I have had to repeat that as a mantra over the last 12 hours. There's no defense for not even thinking about Hope's safety before you leave that room. Sorry. You'll never get me to budge on this issue.

And can I just mention how much this seems like the night time/day time shift? Crowbar and RD will cover the mornings and early afternoons, while Ra1th and I will handle afternoons to third shifts?

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

1. Angel/Kalani/Behemoth episode. Skittles pulled the trigger on the molotov while the two of them were doing their "Who's on First" bit. Kalani came up with the actual strategy. Angel came up with the idea only. Kalani killed the beast.

2. He didn't put his foot down when Lizzy was ejected. He played up the whole i'm hurt, I was tired thing. Man the Puk up! He had enough energy to come downstairs and inquire..... and, wasn't he TOLD by Burt to go back upstairs anyway??

3. The tower was in disarray in multiple areas. It wasn't clean anymore and Burt was having leadership style issues
Angel SHOULD have been Burt's "Grant" (as in Gen Grant). He let Burt flop around like a hooked Catfish on hot Mississippi asphalt.
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ok i dont have time to answer all of these because there's too many posts to respond to but heres one thing, Angel did not support Burt's leadership. Angel wasn't teh second in command during that time. Angel was Michael's grant, not burt's. Burt's grant was pretty much Kalani. Burt used Angel fro tactics, and missions, thats a bout it.
shit

as for putting his foot down when lizzy was ejected, yeah he shouldnt have been asleep, but shit cut him some slack he just went through a building got cut up to hell and killed a behemoth. So in short, yes there are some kinks to work out, every character has these, no one is perfect, if they were all perfect they'd have no depth etc etc

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Originally Posted by kafu288

If he was getting some action that night that actually would be several points against him for being the world's biggest douche and just ignoring what was happening. Burt turned the leadership over to Michael because he knew that the people wanted Michael to lead again. Go back and listen to that transition again. He acknowledged that he didn't have it in him to lead and he saw the people's allegiances changing

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how is that ignoring what was happening? That was i'm gettin laid! oh shit somethings wrong! hey burt what's wrong? Burt: nothing's wrong Angel: cool, back to my lady. nothing douchey there

I was waiting for Ra1th to jump on this =P

....I'm just curious how we're still talking about Angel getting laid when we know Riley wasn't in the room with him and was out having a smoke and that's why Lizzy didn't see her?

And you know....Riley is a lesbian. So....just sayin' :p

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

And can I just mention how much this seems like the night time/day time shift? Crowbar and RD will cover the mornings and early afternoons, while Ra1th and I will handle afternoons to third shifts?

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LOL. This seems about right. We always need 1 member of each side on the clock at all times! ;)

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Originally Posted by Rock Daddy

LOL. This seems about right. We always need 1 member of each side on the clock at all times! ;)

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Screw it!!! I can pull doubles all the time! Man up Rock Daddy!! :p

Nik, leaving a 14 year old girl alone in the guard room is not a mistake. THis is the most ridiculous statement I've heard from you EVER. If the armory was being raided, then FUCK the girl, because every soul in hte damn tower depends on the ammo in the armory.

Tell me this, in that situation there were two choices,

Leave the girl with tied up prisoner who's chained to a wall, and check who's stealing our ammo.

OR

when the alarm goes off in the armory, Hmmmm lets stay here instead, i'm sure SOMEONE ELSE WILL TAKE CARE OF IT. i'll just stay here and protect hope. if he had done that you would have come down harder on him for not hcecking out the goddamn armory.


You fail to understand why it is such a hard concept for people to latch on to? "leaving a 14 year old blind girl wiht a man you dont trust" Ok i'll tell you why. BECAUSE THE ARMORY IS BEING RAIDED. And here's another thing Nik, leaving hope with pippin DIDNT END UP KILLING HER. Pippin never so much as touched the girl. YOUR THEORY FAILS THERE. its over. Leaving hope with pippin is not the problem. Hope is not dead because Angel left her with pippin, and then pippin killed her. The rat assassinated her. SO blame the rat not pippin for hope's death. Angel was right in leaving her to check the armory

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

....I'm just curious how we're still talking about Angel getting laid when we know Riley wasn't in the room with him and was out having a smoke and that's why Lizzy didn't see her?

And you know....Riley is a lesbian. So....just sayin' :p

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Maybe it wasn't Riley... Or maybe she went out for a quick "after-sex" smoke. And there's a lot of women that aren't B/W lesbian or straight. Maybe she's in the grey area and trying to figure her feelings out, and it's really tearing her up... LOL :D

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

....I'm just curious how we're still talking about Angel getting laid when we know Riley wasn't in the room with him and was out having a smoke and that's why Lizzy didn't see her?

And you know....Riley is a lesbian. So....just sayin' :p

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shutup you have no proof

Crowbar, you want an example of ANgel's leadership?

During field missions, Angel is hte one in charge, and he does show leadership. During the MRE mission, Kalani deterred to him when they realized they were being hunted, Kalani turned to him when the behemoth appeared. With the mission at the arena, Datu and Riley turned to him when michael "died" , they turned to him when datu was captured. they turned to him on the mission to rescue datu.

Now I consider this to be damn good leadership. ANd if you disagree, then thats a difference of opinion that will NEVER be settled no matter how much debate goes into it. You're going into this with the mindset that the butterbar can never lead, And i'm going into this with the mindset that Angel can do no wrong. So we're at an impass

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Originally Posted by HardKor

Ra1th,
I agree with much of what you say. From an unbiased, rational point of view, Angel probably did what he had to do by leaving his post to investigate the alarm. The problem is, once everyone finds out what happens and shit starts to hit the fan, people aren't going to be rational or unbiased. There is going to be panic and chaos. And Angel is going to end up with the blame.
Someone, most likely Michael among others will probably stick up for him eventually, but people are still going to blame Angel for what happened. And Angel will probably end up blaming himself to some degree also. It might not be fair but its going to happen. People are going to look for a scapegoat to blame for this, and until the culprit is found Angel (assuming he isn't the culprit himself) is the easiest scapegoat.
And this is what puts another nail in the "will Angel ever become leader of the Tower" question. This sort of thing just keeps happening to him. He gets blamed for things that aren't necessarily his fault. He makes rational decisions that turn out to bite him on the ass (wanting to leave Burt behind, wanting to not let Lizzie and her boyfriend in because it was too dangerous, etc...) These are the sorts of things that on paper seems rational but make people angry. And now people are going to see him as failing to save Pippin and Hope (if Hope was killed). People just aren't going to want him as leader if that's the way they see him. Is that fair? Absolutely not! But whoever said life was fair?

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I don't think this is gonna be much of an issue in the long term. Hey after the war, Michael was hated by everyone because they felt that he lead them to war, and that he wasted all their supplies on zombie recon missions, But he still came back. this won't be good for him in the short run, but people will move on soon enough

Amen, Ra1th! In the first few episodes Angel deferred to Michael cause he had battlefield experience in the real world. Well, I'd say Angel has plenty of battlefield experience now- everyone in the Tower's a 'steely-eyed missile man' by now...

I don't think he wants command, but if Michael were killed he'd have to accept the reins.

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Originally Posted by Pteranodon

Amen, Ra1th! In the first few episodes Angel deferred to Michael cause he had battlefield experience in the real world. Well, I'd say Angel has plenty of battlefield experience now- everyone in the Tower's a 'steely-eyed missile man' by now...

I don't think he wants command, but if Michael were killed he'd have to accept the reins.

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this brought tears to my eyes :D

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Nik, leaving a 14 year old girl alone in the guard room is not a mistake. THis is the most ridiculous statement I've heard from you EVER. If the armory was being raided, then FUCK the girl, because every soul in hte damn tower depends on the ammo in the armory.

Tell me this, in that situation there were two choices,

Leave the girl with tied up prisoner who's chained to a wall, and check who's stealing our ammo.

OR

when the alarm goes off in the armory, Hmmmm lets stay here instead, i'm sure SOMEONE ELSE WILL TAKE CARE OF IT. i'll just stay here and protect hope. if he had done that you would have come down harder on him for not hcecking out the goddamn armory.


You fail to understand why it is such a hard concept for people to latch on to? "leaving a 14 year old blind girl wiht a man you dont trust" Ok i'll tell you why. BECAUSE THE ARMORY IS BEING RAIDED. And here's another thing Nik, leaving hope with pippin DIDNT END UP KILLING HER. Pippin never so much as touched the girl. YOUR THEORY FAILS THERE. its over. Leaving hope with pippin is not the problem. Hope is not dead because Angel left her with pippin, and then pippin killed her. The rat assassinated her. SO blame the rat not pippin for hope's death. Angel was right in leaving her to check the armory

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I've just about had it with this argument with you. The fact that you're missing the larger point in this is really starting to annoy me on a level I can't even explain. Ignore Pippin. He's not in the room anymore and it's just Angel and Hope. When suddenly....an alarm goes off in the armory! "ZOMG WAT DO????WAT DO???" The fact that Angel's first instinct is to not protect the child in the room is the point. He runs off and leaves a child alone when there is something dangerous happening AND he does nothing to protect her. No hide here, go in there and sit tight. Nothing. He left a 14 year old to defend for herself when in your scenario, someone is stealing everything in the armory and could come out guns blazing unless Angel gets there first!

So with removing Pippin from the situation, can you finally see the issue? HE RAN OFF WITHOUT EVEN THINKING ABOUT THE CHILD'S SAFETY!. I do not understand how you can even try to defend that point. It's indefensible to not even acknowledge her existence at that moment.

Now, layer Pippin back in as a man no one trusts....*shrug* That's really all I have to say about it.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

shutup you have no proof

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Neither do you. At least I have Riley's words to back me up that she wasn't with Angel at that time. And Riley was in the hallway, you'd figure someone would note her going into Angel's room instead of her own.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I've just about had it with this argument with you. The fact that you're missing the larger point in this is really starting to annoy me on a level I can't even explain. Ignore Pippin. He's not in the room anymore and it's just Angel and Hope. When suddenly....an alarm goes off in the armory! "ZOMG WAT DO????WAT DO???" The fact that Angel's first instinct is to not protect the child in the room is the point. He runs off and leaves a child alone when there is something dangerous happening AND he does nothing to protect her. No hide here, go in there and sit tight. Nothing. He left a 14 year old to defend for herself when in your scenario, someone is stealing everything in the armory and could come out guns blazing unless Angel gets there first!

So with removing Pippin from the situation, can you finally see the issue? HE RAN OFF WITHOUT EVEN THINKING ABOUT THE CHILD'S SAFETY!. I do not understand how you can even try to defend that point. It's indefensible to not even acknowledge her existence at that moment.

Now, layer Pippin back in as a man no one trusts....*shrug* That's really all I have to say about it.

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Oh and you wouldnt? you yourself said that you would do the same thing. You yourself said that anyone in the tower would do the same thing. He ran off wihtout thinking about the child's safety, she was safe. Pippin was not a threat to her. Pippin never touched her. No one could have predicted that the rat would come in and shoot up the place. So I would say he did think about her safety. he checked, hmm oh pippin is tied to a wall. ok, hope is relatively safe, Now i have bigger fish to fry, and he left to go check out the armory, which if it gets raided, EVERYONE IN THE TOWER SUFFERS and MANY will die



Yeah i can't back up that Riley is straight, doesn't mean that you can back up that she's gay, so we'll leave it at that.

why so many posts. the answer is no. just no.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Oh and you wouldnt? you yourself said that you would do the same thing. You yourself said that anyone in the tower would do the same thing. He ran off wihtout thinking about the child's safety, she was safe. Pippin was not a threat to her. Pippin never touched her. No one could have predicted that the rat would come in and shoot up the place. So I would say he did think about her safety. he checked, hmm oh pippin is tied to a wall. ok, hope is relatively safe, Now i have bigger fish to fry, and he left to go check out the armory, which if it gets raided, EVERYONE IN THE TOWER SUFFERS and MANY will die

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I said I would check on the alarm, AFTER I told the defenseless child to hide.

Stop thinking about Pippin. Pippin is not the point of my argument, he and his untrustworthy-ness was just a factor of it. Maybe this is something you won't understand until you're closer to having children yourself but I'm going to lay it out for you one...last....time....and I'm going to do it without caps lock on because I want you to read it and not react to me screaming it.

Angel, your boy, left a 14 year old girl alone without giving her any instruction to hide herself because there was something dangerous happening down the hall. I'm not even saying Angel had to hold her hand and hide her in a closet. All he had to say was "Hope, hide!" Two words. If he had simply done that, nothing ever comes out of my mouth about this topic, and World War Angel stays at a cease fire. But he didn't. He ran out of the room without thinking of her once. That, to me, is reprehensible.


And the reason I brought up Riley in the way I did was to bring some levity to the argument :p

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I said I would check on the alarm, AFTER I told the defenseless child to hide.

Stop thinking about Pippin. Pippin is not the point of my argument, he and his untrustworthy-ness was just a factor of it. Maybe this is something you won't understand until you're closer to having children yourself but I'm going to lay it out for you one...last....time....and I'm going to do it without caps lock on because I want you to read it and not react to me screaming it.

Angel, your boy, left a 14 year old girl alone without giving her any instruction to hide herself because there was something dangerous happening down the hall. I'm not even saying Angel had to hold her hand and hide her in a closet. All he had to say was "Hope, hide!" Two words. If he had simply done that, nothing ever comes out of my mouth about this topic, and World War Angel stays at a cease fire. But he didn't. He ran out of the room without thinking of her once. That, to me, is reprehensible.


And the reason I brought up Riley in the way I did was to bring some levity to the argument :p

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Well if this is your last time saying it then I can just beat this point over your head a few more times and I don't have to expect a response :)

Stop thinking about pippin? Why? He is the basis of your argument, you say its his fault for leaving Hope in danger by leaving her wiht pippin. What other danger to her was there? No one could have predicted the shooter.

There was no threat to Hope when ANgel left her. There was no reason for him to tell her to hide. The tower was not under attack. THe armory was being raided. Under those circumstances, There was no reason to tell her to hide. You think that he should have told her to hide, because you have facts that we the audience have, and you have hindsight, things that Angel did not have. You also have time to think out your actions. Angel had none of these things. Angel was under pressure, THe girl was relatively safe from Pippin. The tower was not under attack. There was no perceived danger to Hope at the time. There was no reason to tell her to hide. If this is still "reprehensible" to you, then you are not able to see this clearly from the perspective of that character during that initial crisis. Now would it have been nice to tell the girl, hey i'll brb. and then take off? yeah but guess what? he had more pressing matters than the feelings of a 14 year old.

take a good look around you voodoo. There's not a soul here who supports your argument that he was wrong about not considering Hope's safety. Face it, you've lost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Angel, your boy, left a 14 year old girl alone without giving her any instruction to hide herself because there was something dangerous happening down the hall. I'm not even saying Angel had to hold her hand and hide her in a closet. All he had to say was "Hope, hide!" Two words. If he had simply done that, nothing ever comes out of my mouth about this topic, and World War Angel stays at a cease fire. But he didn't. He ran out of the room without thinking of her once. That, to me, is reprehensible.

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Maybe there was no where to hide, and it would have put Hope into more of a vulnerable situation to be crouched next to something. Also, Angel closed the door behind him when he rushes out, showing that he wanted to keep her safe, and doesn't want Hope to move from that spot. I don't think he expected her to go anywhere! Why kill time explaining that, when the thief could be getting away? (She's blind, not stupid. And a young adult) Just happens that there's a rat that likes to play dirty. Not his fault.

You obviously didn't read it so now I am going to scream it at you.

ANGEL LEFT A CHILD ALONE AND DEFENSELESS AND THAT IS A HORRIBLE THING TO DO AS A HUMAN BEING! WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED TO HEAR?

This has nothing to do with information I have that Angel doesn't. AN ALARM IS GOING OFF IN THE ARMORY AND YOU ARE SITTING IN THE ROOM WITH A 14 YEAR OLD GIRL WHO CAN'T DEFEND HERSELF! And you think that nothing bad might happen if someone is stealing weapons? "How could she possibly be in danger if someone is raiding the armory??!!" Are you serious???

If there was no threat at the time, why did Angel even have to leave? If it was just a simple robbery why run off so quickly? If there wasn't a threat, he should have sauntered down the hallway to inquire as to what was happening. There was danger, because he ran as fast as he could away. Your thoughts aren't matching Angel's actions right now.

Pippin has little to nothing to do with this argument. He was always just a qualifier for why Angel was wrong for leaving Hope alone in the room. The major point is he left Hope alone without giving her a second thought.

Talk to me in a few years when you are closer to having children yourself and tell me that what Angel did makes perfect sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Daddy

Maybe there was no where to hide, and it would have put Hope into more of a vulnerable situation to be crouched next to something. Also, Angel closed the door behind him when he rushes out, showing that he wanted to keep her safe, and doesn't want Hope to move from that spot. I don't think he expected her to go anywhere! Why kill time explaining that, when the thief could be getting away? (She's blind, not stupid. And a young adult) Just happens that there's a rat that likes to play dirty. Not his fault.

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The guard room is an apartment. There are places to hide. He may not have expected her to go anywhere, but you have to be clear. Especially to a teenager.

Two words. "Hope hide" the end. That's all that needed to happen. You're both telling me Angel can't spare enough breath for two words? really?

What would telling a Blind girl to hide really do for her? You think anyone would be able to predict that a killer would show up seconds after Angel ran away? I'll bet you that had Angel heard gunshots, and realized that there was an actual attack on the tower, he would have had her bunker down, and protected her. He simply went to check out an inside alarm. Remember, until now, nobody regarded ANY of the allies inside the Tower as murderers. Also, if they constantly lived under the idea that "anyone in the tower can be a murderer at anytime" or "any disturbance is an attack" they'd be all dead by now. I don't tell my son to run and hide everytime I hear a loud bang in the other room, until I investigate. However, if the entry door alarm to the WHOLE HOUSE sounded, THEN, I'd tell him to stay closed in a room, (OR I'D SHUT HIM IN), while I check down the hall and investigate.

Nik, Ra1th,

Ouch, Ouch, and OUCH! oh, and Rock.. huh? LOL

Ok, what i'm seing is a lot of "If's" and no concrete evidence. Angel showed a lack of threat assessment and Operational Risk Management by leaving Hope alone first off.
Pippin was considered a threat. So, you have your bird in the hand and the alarm as your bird in the bush. All threats are taken care of by priority or proximity. The closest threat was Pippin.
Someone may say that "oh, but in the end he was really a threat" That's conjecture to the highest degree. The facts are he wasn't trusted, he was to be watched and he wasn't to remain in that room. His "Unknown" status rules him as a threat until it's no longer deemed to be so.
That wasn't the case here. So, Angel making the mad dash off is pertinent. Poor RA, Poor ORM and poor situational awareness.

Rock says that "MAYBE" there was no place to hide? Why wouldnt' there be? They're on the 5th floor and there are plenty of rooms, plenty of other residents to take her. So, Hope's safety is the number one priority.

The ONLY reason to leave Hope in the room is IF there were an immediate threat in the hallway. There was none. There were no bullets flying, no bombs, no screaming. Angel had time to assess the situation then act on that. He didn't. He reacted.

The Armory being robbed is yet another IF and an attempt to give his actions credit. What we DO have is a simple alarm going off. Rats, water, faulty wires, Lady..any number of things could set off an alarm.

When your car alarm goes off in the middle of the night, do you rush into the street? Hell no! You look out the window first. That's a threat assessment. If you see somebody hanging around it or smashing in your windows... you either call the cops OR your arm yourself and take care of the threat.

If you and your old lady are sleep and the house alarm goes off, or the sound of breaking glass wakes you guys up, do you jump out the bed and run down stairs or do you tell your girl to stay there or hide in the bathroom? You look after her first then you grab your crowbar...eheheh (sorry, sorry.) and SLOWLY head out to investigate.

Angel didn't do any of that. It was a mad dash to see about an alarm. An alarm, not an actual incident. Add insult to injury, but Hope is BLIND! Let's say there was a break in into the armory, or there was an attack.. who's going to MAKE SURE Hope is safe? Pippin? Who's going to make sure Hope get's out the room if they need to evac?

You cats are acting like Burt had Nukes or bio weapons in there. A few M4's going missing doesn't equal the loss of life or lives that happened. I'll add this tid bit too, they're communication abilities are done now.
That places them is such a vulnerable spot it's ridiculous. They have no way to gather information from the field.

Ra1th, Charisma is an inate ability to manipulate people into doing things. It's charm/appeal. Ok, I'm outty. Can't hang. I have one star to take to the airport. I'll catch you cats on the flipside.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Nik, Ra1th,

Ouch, Ouch, and OUCH! oh, and Rock.. huh? LOL

Ok, what i'm seing is a lot of "If's" and no concrete evidence. Angel showed a lack of threat assessment and Operational Risk Management by leaving Hope alone first off.
Pippin was considered a threat. So, you have your bird in the hand and the alarm as your bird in the bush. All threats are taken care of by priority or proximity. The closest threat was Pippin.
Someone may say that "oh, but in the end he was really a threat" That's conjecture to the highest degree. The facts are he wasn't trusted, he was to be watched and he wasn't to remain in that room. His "Unknown" status rules him as a threat until it's no longer deemed to be so.
That wasn't the case here. So, Angel making the mad dash off is pertinent. Poor RA, Poor ORM and poor situational awareness.

Rock says that "MAYBE" there was no place to hide? Why wouldnt' there be? They're on the 5th floor and there are plenty of rooms, plenty of other residents to take her. So, Hope's safety is the number one priority.

The ONLY reason to leave Hope in the room is IF there were an immediate threat in the hallway. There was none. There were no bullets flying, no bombs, no screaming. Angel had time to assess the situation then act on that. He didn't. He reacted.

The Armory being robbed is yet another IF and an attempt to give his actions credit. What we DO have is a simple alarm going off. Rats, water, faulty wires, Lady..any number of things could set off an alarm.

When your car alarm goes off in the middle of the night, do you rush into the street? Hell no! You look out the window first. That's a threat assessment. If you see somebody hanging around it or smashing in your windows... you either call the cops OR your arm yourself and take care of the threat.

If you and your old lady are sleep and the house alarm goes off, or the sound of breaking glass wakes you guys up, do you jump out the bed and run down stairs or do you tell your girl to stay there or hide in the bathroom? You look after her first then you grab your crowbar...eheheh (sorry, sorry.) and SLOWLY head out to investigate.

Angel didn't do any of that. It was a mad dash to see about an alarm. An alarm, not an actual incident. Add insult to injury, but Hope is BLIND! Let's say there was a break in into the armory, or there was an attack.. who's going to MAKE SURE Hope is safe? Pippin? Who's going to make sure Hope get's out the room if they need to evac?

You cats are acting like Burt had Nukes or bio weapons in there. A few M4's going missing doesn't equal the loss of life or lives that happened. I'll add this tid bit too, they're communication abilities are done now.
That places them is such a vulnerable spot it's ridiculous. They have no way to gather information from the field.

Ra1th, Charisma is an inate ability to manipulate people into doing things. It's charm/appeal. Ok, I'm outty. Can't hang. I have one star to take to the airport. I'll catch you cats on the flipside.

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Crowbar, I think you've managed to clear up some sloppy thinking on both parts here. As for me, I think I'm just not making sense to anyone now, so I'm out until next time.

PS: Angel can still be the Tower leader (Original Thread Topic)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Daddy

Crowbar, I think you've managed to clear up some sloppy thinking on both parts here. As for me, I think I'm just not making sense to anyone now, so I'm out until next time.

PS: Angel can still be the Tower leader (Original Thread Topic)

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....original thread topic......oooooooh yeah.......

No. No he can't....mainly because we're about to leave the Tower and he'll never be able to lead it! BAM! SEMANTICS! :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Nik, Ra1th,

Ouch, Ouch, and OUCH! oh, and Rock.. huh? LOL

Ok, what i'm seing is a lot of "If's" and no concrete evidence. Angel showed a lack of threat assessment and Operational Risk Management by leaving Hope alone first off.
Pippin was considered a threat. So, you have your bird in the hand and the alarm as your bird in the bush. All threats are taken care of by priority or proximity. The closest threat was Pippin.
Someone may say that "oh, but in the end he was really a threat" That's conjecture to the highest degree. The facts are he wasn't trusted, he was to be watched and he wasn't to remain in that room. His "Unknown" status rules him as a threat until it's no longer deemed to be so.
That wasn't the case here. So, Angel making the mad dash off is pertinent. Poor RA, Poor ORM and poor situational awareness.

Rock says that "MAYBE" there was no place to hide? Why wouldnt' there be? They're on the 5th floor and there are plenty of rooms, plenty of other residents to take her. So, Hope's safety is the number one priority.

The ONLY reason to leave Hope in the room is IF there were an immediate threat in the hallway. There was none. There were no bullets flying, no bombs, no screaming. Angel had time to assess the situation then act on that. He didn't. He reacted.

The Armory being robbed is yet another IF and an attempt to give his actions credit. What we DO have is a simple alarm going off. Rats, water, faulty wires, Lady..any number of things could set off an alarm.

When your car alarm goes off in the middle of the night, do you rush into the street? Hell no! You look out the window first. That's a threat assessment. If you see somebody hanging around it or smashing in your windows... you either call the cops OR your arm yourself and take care of the threat.

If you and your old lady are sleep and the house alarm goes off, or the sound of breaking glass wakes you guys up, do you jump out the bed and run down stairs or do you tell your girl to stay there or hide in the bathroom? You look after her first then you grab your crowbar...eheheh (sorry, sorry.) and SLOWLY head out to investigate.

Angel didn't do any of that. It was a mad dash to see about an alarm. An alarm, not an actual incident. Add insult to injury, but Hope is BLIND! Let's say there was a break in into the armory, or there was an attack.. who's going to MAKE SURE Hope is safe? Pippin? Who's going to make sure Hope get's out the room if they need to evac?

You cats are acting like Burt had Nukes or bio weapons in there. A few M4's going missing doesn't equal the loss of life or lives that happened. I'll add this tid bit too, they're communication abilities are done now.
That places them is such a vulnerable spot it's ridiculous. They have no way to gather information from the field.

Ra1th, Charisma is an inate ability to manipulate people into doing things. It's charm/appeal. Ok, I'm outty. Can't hang. I have one star to take to the airport. I'll catch you cats on the flipside.

---

Burt might not have nukes in there, but do you remember how devastating it was the last time the armory was raided? the Tower lost all of their ammo, and then had to fight the mallers wihtout ammo, and subsequently they lost a number of lives in that attack. So yes the ammo room is absolutely the priority over protecting the blind girl from the prisoner who's chained to a wall.

Who's going to "MAKE SURE" Hope is safe? safe from what? what's the threat? the hypothetical assault on the tower? when angel ran out of the room, he had no reason to believe that Hope was in any danger.

Once again crowbar, we have hindsight on this issue, you're blaming Angel for going after the armory instead of guarding hope. At that point in time, Angel had reason to believe the armory was being raided, and he had no reason to believe that Hope was in any danger. Could he have told hope that he'd be right back? yeah sure that would be nice, but surely you realize that in times of crisis or when there's heavy pressure on you sometimes people make small mistakes, this was a small thing that he forgot to do, Even if he told her to hide that wouldnt have done her any good, she's blind, she cant do that by herself. If he had taken the time to hide her before he left, then the raider of the armory woulda gotten away. Also what reason did he have to hide her? he had none, there was no threat to hope. there was no reason to hide her. Had angel NOT gone after the armory I'm sure you would have bashed him for that too, oh he fails as a leader because he wants other people to do his job for him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

....original thread topic......oooooooh yeah.......

No. No he can't....mainly because we're about to leave the Tower and he'll never be able to lead it! BAM! SEMANTICS! :p

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bet you anything we wont be leaving the tower anytime soon, too much shit is in LA. Ink, ground zero, Lizzy (burt and saul aren't leaving without here) they aint leavin till at least the next season imo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

You obviously didn't read it so now I am going to scream it at you.

ANGEL LEFT A CHILD ALONE AND DEFENSELESS AND THAT IS A HORRIBLE THING TO DO AS A HUMAN BEING! WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED TO HEAR?

This has nothing to do with information I have that Angel doesn't. AN ALARM IS GOING OFF IN THE ARMORY AND YOU ARE SITTING IN THE ROOM WITH A 14 YEAR OLD GIRL WHO CAN'T DEFEND HERSELF! And you think that nothing bad might happen if someone is stealing weapons? "How could she possibly be in danger if someone is raiding the armory??!!" Are you serious???

If there was no threat at the time, why did Angel even have to leave? If it was just a simple robbery why run off so quickly? If there wasn't a threat, he should have sauntered down the hallway to inquire as to what was happening. There was danger, because he ran as fast as he could away. Your thoughts aren't matching Angel's actions right now.

Pippin has little to nothing to do with this argument. He was always just a qualifier for why Angel was wrong for leaving Hope alone in the room. The major point is he left Hope alone without giving her a second thought.

Talk to me in a few years when you are closer to having children yourself and tell me that what Angel did makes perfect sense.



The guard room is an apartment. There are places to hide. He may not have expected her to go anywhere, but you have to be clear. Especially to a teenager.

Two words. "Hope hide" the end. That's all that needed to happen. You're both telling me Angel can't spare enough breath for two words? really?

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if it was a simple robbery, why leave? because he needed to catch the culprit, that's why he would leave.

And i think rock daddy just pwnd your telling hope to hid argument

hope didn't need to defend herself, she wasn't in danger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

bet you anything we wont be leaving the tower anytime soon, too much shit is in LA. Ink, ground zero, Lizzy (burt and saul aren't leaving without here) they aint leavin till at least the next season imo

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Yeah, you're probably right, but all that said I'd love it to happen just to claim (the most hollow via semantics) victory ever! :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

if it was a simple robbery, why leave? because he needed to catch the culprit, that's why he would leave.

And i think rock daddy just pwnd your telling hope to hid argument

hope didn't need to defend herself, she wasn't in danger.

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And I'm pretty sure Crowbar schooled all of us, and explicitly pointed out how and why she was in Danger.

Far be it from me to keep defending Angel but if the shit goes down I'm not going to be worried about the 14 yo blind girl. I am going to secure the Armory and on the way I'm grabbing someone and sending them to the guard room and then grabbing someone to back me up. Angel did the right thing in my book

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Yeah, you're probably right, but all that said I'd love it to happen just to claim (the most hollow via semantics) victory ever! :p

And I'm pretty sure Crowbar schooled all of us, and explicitly pointed out how and why she was in Danger.

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I'm still not seeing why she was in any danger, she was in a room with a prisoner, who was chained to a wall. no danger there. Yeah if a zombie attack happened, she's screwed but thats about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

And can I just mention how much this seems like the night time/day time shift? Crowbar and RD will cover the mornings and early afternoons, while Ra1th and I will handle afternoons to third shifts?

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Thanks Nik, way to just out and out discount my input. jk :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cupcakezombie

Thanks Nik, way to just out and out discount my input. jk :p

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*checking roster* Oh damn. So sorry! Everyone please excuse the oversight of our newest Angel Hater/Supporter staff member. ;)