Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower?

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Originally Posted by ryanlm09

... but because he takes the position, he will die a slow, horrible death

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i'd say its the other way around, Michael dies a terrible death to save everyone, angel takes over, and becomes a good leader forevaaar

I promised you I wasn't going to go at you blow by blow this time, and I'm keeping that promise. So I'm just gonna cherry pick instead of going after all your points.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

You say calculated risk, the show says acting without thinking. If you recall after that scene, Angel pulls Michael aside and yells at him for jeopardizing the safety of the entire tower to save one person. To which Michael responded,� what was I supposed to do? “let them die?�, and angel’s response was yes. Because had Michael failed, everyone would have died. After this saul intervenes, and he says, don’t listen to angel, he’s a prick. Michael takes a moment to calm down and thinks for a second then regretfully replies.� He was right, I put the entire tower at risk by opening that door� basically he admits he acted on instinct, to save someone because that’s his training as a soldier. Then saul gives his speech on hail mary passes. This is the difference between a soldier and an officer. As a soldier Michael’s job was to do everything to keep everyone alive, officers have to make difficult decisions on who lives and who dies.

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Just ignore the fact that we're talking about Angel for the moment. Soldier A has the respect of a small group of civilians and has been acting as a leader despite having Officer B there too. In the eyes of everyone there (except Officer B), Solider A is in charge, not Officer B. Leadership is determined by actions and those who follow those actions. And in this case Solider A (though not expressly told he's in charge or having some large ceremony saying he's in charge) is in charge. Ok, back to the story.

With the breakdown of society, so too go the titles associated with the old guard. Angel may have once been the defacto leader by title at the start of the story, but he was not the leader in practice by the time of Lizzy's admission into the Tower. Michael was because everyone around him made him the leader by their actions.

I know what Michael said, of course (I'm not going to prove your points for you my good sir, Ra1th! You must do your due diligence!). His reaction worked two fold: 1. It showed Michael was capable of understanding his reactions have severe consequences thus making him a deeper character and 2. It was done to show the audience that Angel isn't viewed as a total asshole by Michael. If Michael reacted any other way to Angel's tirade, the perspective of Angel's character to the audience changes drastically.

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When you ask, if the leader has the right to decide who lives and who dies by the virtue of their perceived value�, I say yes, that is a leader’s choice, and that is the leader’s burden.

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And this is again getting down to the crux of the argument between you and the Angel fans, and the others on this board: Angel is not perceived as the leader. It wasn't his decision to make. And might I point out, Angel was all about letting both Todd and Lizzy and would have if he had the key on him at the time. One could argue that Angel reacts the way he does on Michael out of guilt. One could indeed argue that.....but I'm just baiting you because I don't actually believe that.

So I suppose that's my question to you: At the moment Lizzy arrived at the Tower who was the perceived leader of the Tower group? Not who claimed leadership, who was the true leader? That will get to the heart of this particular argument we're having today.

ok, so for the people watching/reading this debate, me an nik were talking via chatbox on an issue, so we're putting this on ice for a bit and solving this other debate first before moving back

the problem rises about how in ch 2 episode 1, michael shoots the lock to let Lizzy and todd in. Todd doesnt make it, lizzy does. Angel then yells at michael for jeopardizing the safety of teh entire tower for one person.

the debate now is on what was angel was angry about.

so basically the chain of events goes like this

Michael is sleeping back against the stairwell door, He hears lizzy and todd banging on the door, he opens the stairwell door, and calls for help, angel rushes downstairs, michael tells angel to get the key, angel runs upstairs for the key, michael goes to the stairwell door, the zombies are closing in and angel isnt going to make it in time, Michael shoots the lock, the zombies get todd, lizzy and michael then run to the stairwell door.

now my argument is that angel was angry about michael leaving the stairway door unattended. His exact words were, " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead. Sympathy aside this is an entirely different situation"

so that about sums it up, losing the lobby isnt so great, but the that could be reclaimed, had michael and lizzy not made it back to the stairwell in time, or they'd been killed before then or something the zombies would have made it into the tower and everyone would be dead

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

now my argument is that angel was angry about michael leaving the stairway door unattended. His exact words were, " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead. Sympathy aside this is an entirely different situation"

so that about sums it up, losing the lobby isnt so great, but the that could be reclaimed, had michael and lizzy not made it back to the stairwell in time, or they'd been killed before then or something the zombies would have made it into the tower and everyone would be dead

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And the reason he and I aren't seeing eye to eye is this: My understanding of Angel's blow up has always been because Michael destabilized the safety of the Tower by shooting the lock and making the lobby insecure and over run with zombies. By taking the action of destroying the lock on the front door, he let the baddies in which is the bigger issue. The reason Angel points out the stair way door is because had he not made it back (after Michael destroyed the lock and let the zombies in) they would have all died.

To me, it's the destruction of the Front Door's lock that Angel took issue with. So now we open it up to you. What do you think? It's in Chapter 2-1. The sequence begins around the 5 minute mark and continues until about the 9 minute mark.

but his exact words are " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead."

even if angel was on his way back down the stairs with the key, having 4 or 5 zombies come up would not have been a situation he was prepared for, he lacked field exp back then , he prly wouldnt have survived that, hence me saying its the stairwell

My 2 cents.... There are a dozen quotes I can't quote them all so I will summarize. Please bare with me. The primary security for the whole tower was that front door lock. Angel was angry Michael shot out that lock. There was every possibility that Michael could have fallen at the front door with Tod and Lizzie leaving the main door upstairs which was not the strongest door open and inviting any zombie that felt the desire to walk up stairs for a late night snack. He (angel) is at this point not prepared to lead. I like the term.. Riker to Picard.. Michael is the leader the tower needs at this stage in the game. He is tried and tested by war. He is a front line solder a leader of men in the face of combat. HE stinks of leadership and confidence. Angel as a butter bar LT.. does not. But he is learning from Michael. When and IF they survive and get out of LA to some place else a place were a semi normal civilization can be established.. Then it changes. But for now.. Michael is it leader.

Ok, what part of " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead.� Is not coming across? There is nothing being said about the front door lock, and in the end, they managed to secure the tower without the front door lock so that really has nothing to do with this at all.

The issue is that had Michael not made it to the second door and closed it in time, the zombies would have KILLED EVERYONE IN THE TOWER, that is a lot worse than losing the front lobby, especially considering they barricaded the stairwell door.

Once again the exact quote is " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead. “

THIS door, this door meaning the door they were standing right next to, the stairwell door

I only read #41-45.

I relistened and it sounds to me that he was upset at Michael over shooting the lock AND letting the zombies inside. Had Michael died before he got to the door, the rest would have been caught off guard and died too. You're both right. /thread

The second door would not have held without Michael's intervention. Hell it nearly didn't hold. The primary door was their first line of defense their best line of defense. Had Michael managed to shut the second door even with himself in the lobby they still would have battered the second door down before Angel could have manged to get the tower folk to help reinforce it. The tower folks didn't respond to him as fast as they did Michael. Michael was the instigator of reinforcement for the 2nd door too. The lobby is a very very large piece of ground to give up.

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Originally Posted by yarri

My 2 cents.... There are a dozen quotes I can't quote them all so I will summarize. Please bare with me. The primary security for the whole tower was that front door lock. Angel was angry Michael shot out that lock. There was every possibility that Michael could have fallen at the front door with Tod and Lizzie leaving the main door upstairs which was not the strongest door open and inviting any zombie that felt the desire to walk up stairs for a late night snack. He (angel) is at this point not prepared to lead. I like the term.. Riker to Picard.. Michael is the leader the tower needs at this stage in the game. He is tried and tested by war. He is a front line solder a leader of men in the face of combat. HE stinks of leadership and confidence. Angel as a butter bar LT.. does not. But he is learning from Michael. When and IF they survive and get out of LA to some place else a place were a semi normal civilization can be established.. Then it changes. But for now.. Michael is it leader.

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Precious Michael is not the only one who has field experience anymore, angel has been on more field ops than anyone in the tower. He also knows combat and can deal with zombies just as well as Michael can. Angel WAS a butter bar lt. that’s not the case anymore, in the time Michael was a cripple and saul was half dead, angel was the only soldier running missions, during this time he carried the weight of the other two on his own, that puts you above a butter bar, a butter bar is a term for an inexperienced inept officer who hasn’t seen combat right? well angel has been knee deep in the shit for the last month, how is he still a butter bar?

Right now, Angel cannot lead because he lacks the charisma to keep the people of the tower in line. Once he gains that charisma he has the skill and the experience to lead in any damn environment.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Precious Michael is not the only one who has field experience anymore, angel has been on more field ops than anyone in the tower. He also knows combat and can deal with zombies just as well as Michael can. Angel WAS a butter bar lt. that’s not the case anymore, in the time Michael was a cripple and saul was half dead, angel was the only soldier running missions, during this time he carried the weight of the other two on his own, that puts you above a butter bar, a butter bar is a term for an inexperienced inept officer who hasn’t seen combat right? well angel has been knee deep in the shit for the last month, how is he still a butter bar?

Right now, Angel cannot lead because he lacks the charisma to keep the people of the tower in line. Once he gains that charisma he has the skill and the experience to lead in any damn environment.

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I never said inept and I take offense to that. Angel is one of my favorites. We are talking about a specific time frame. NOT anything after Ra1th.. At the time of the argument he was a butter bar with Zero combat/field experience and anything like that gets you killed in the field.

ok for the lock problem, let's say time wasnt an issue and that angel made it downstairs with the key, he and michael need to UNLOCK the door anyway to let todd and lizzy in, they would have had to face the zombies and let them into the lobby no matter what if they were to rescue lizzy/todd. had angel made it down with the key, one of them would have stood at the stairway door and guarded it, while the ohter opened the front door for the lizzy/todd.

so the lock was going to have come off no matter what, so the front door isnt the issue the lack of a guard at the stairway door is.

and you can't say angel's goal was to leave lizzy and todd to die because he ran upstairs to get the key, his problem is that michael didnt wait for a second person to keep guard at the stairway door as a backup in case michael never made it back from the front door

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

ok for the lock problem, let's say time wasnt an issue and that angel made it downstairs with the key, he and michael need to UNLOCK the door anyway to let todd and lizzy in, they would have had to face the zombies and let them into the lobby no matter what if they were to rescue lizzy/todd. had angel made it down with the key, one of them would have stood at the stairway door and guarded it, while the ohter opened the front door for the lizzy/todd.

so the lock was going to have come off no matter what, so the front door isnt the issue the lack of a guard at the stairway door is.

and you can't say angel's goal was to leave lizzy and todd to die because he ran upstairs to get the key, his problem is that michael didnt wait for a second person to keep guard at the stairway door as a backup in case michael never made it back from the front door

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That is a HUGE what if friend.. as going for the keys.. Todd and Lizzie would be dead before the door opened. I won't say it was his goal.. it wasn't. But in combat someone who is trained to see the "big picture" which Angel was and Michael did give him credit for.. sometimes you have to have collateral damage .. death to save lives.
There was no time for the key.. none at all. It was now or never and they still lost Todd.

Yarri is right on this one...I hate to say it but ive been put in that very situation many times...and it blows...everyone has their own way of leading. I Myself tend to risk the entire group to save the one....Ill call it like it is Im an Ole snake eater and I truly down to the very fiber of my core believe that either all of us go home or none of us to...they only way I will allow someone to die willingly is if THEY choose to stay behind to slow up the enemy....

I myself am MORE than willing to risk my life for EVERY single one of my men....

~M~

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

so the lock was going to have come off no matter what, so the front door isnt the issue the lack of a guard at the stairway door is.

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The lock was going to have to come off, but the lock wasn't going to have to be destroyed. The issue is that Michael destroyed the lock. Listen to what Angel says before the quote you're sticking to about the stairwell door:
Angel: They're inside?!
Michael: It's too late
Angel: What the fuck happened?
Michael I had to shoot the lock.
Angel: You what?!

It's all about destroying their safeguard at the front door.

And after that is the real key line from Angel: "You jeopardized everyone's life by letting them in" That's the focus. Not the stairwell door. The stairwell door was an example of how things could have gone wrong if Michael hadn't acted quick enough to the situation he created. Angel was presenting a hypothetical to Michael by talking about the stairway door.

Fin you win on the stupid door, it was trivial anyway

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I promised you I wasn't going to go at you blow by blow this time, and I'm keeping that promise. So I'm just gonna cherry pick instead of going after all your points.

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Light argument my ass voodoo, look what this has spiraled into

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Just ignore the fact that we're talking about Angel for the moment. Soldier A has the respect of a small group of civilians and has been acting as a leader despite having Officer B there too. In the eyes of everyone there (except Officer B), Solider A is in charge, not Officer B. Leadership is determined by actions and those who follow those actions. And in this case Solider A (though not expressly told he's in charge or having some large ceremony saying he's in charge) is in charge. Ok, back to the story.

With the breakdown of society, so too go the titles associated with the old guard. Angel may have once been the defacto leader by title at the start of the story, but he was not the leader in practice by the time of Lizzy's admission into the Tower. Michael was because everyone around him made him the leader by their actions. .

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I can’t argue with you there, if this had happened in the army, Angel’s leadership is backed up by rank, Michael would be court marshaled for mutiny and disobeying orders. But its not, these guys are their own government, and the leader of the group is bound by no laws, and by no one other than the people.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

And this is again getting down to the crux of the argument between you and the Angel fans, and the others on this board: Angel is not perceived as the leader. It wasn't his decision to make. And might I point out, Angel was all about letting both Todd and Lizzy and would have if he had the key on him at the time. One could argue that Angel reacts the way he does on Michael out of guilt. One could indeed argue that.....but I'm just baiting you because I don't actually believe that.

So I suppose that's my question to you: At the moment Lizzy arrived at the Tower who was the perceived leader of the Tower group? Not who claimed leadership, who was the true leader? That will get to the heart of this particular argument we're having today.

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Michael was the leader at that time, Michael had been leader since him and saul broke into the base and got the weapons. I don’t even remember what we were debating before this so your going to have remind me

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

no he's not, as a matter of fact, when angel first started, he was really incapable in the field, he couldnt do anything, despite his officer training, but he's grown past that now, he's one of the best men to send into the field, no matter what his mission might be, Angel will always succeed. (Thats right haters, come get some, Angel has never failed a single mission he's been on). So now he has the street smarts, and the officer training, what he needs now is charisma and the fire to want to lead.

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ehhehe! This just gets, better and better!
Hey Ra1th! Angels still throws like a girl!

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Precious Michael is not the only one who has field experience anymore, angel has been on more field ops than anyone in the tower. He also knows combat and can deal with zombies just as well as Michael can. Angel WAS a butter bar lt. that’s not the case anymore, in the time Michael was a cripple and saul was half dead, angel was the only soldier running missions, during this time he carried the weight of the other two on his own, that puts you above a butter bar, a butter bar is a term for an inexperienced inept officer who hasn’t seen combat right? well angel has been knee deep in the shit for the last month, how is he still a butter bar?

Right now, Angel cannot lead because he lacks the charisma to keep the people of the tower in line. Once he gains that charisma he has the skill and the experience to lead in any damn environment.

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Charisma is a leadership trait. You have it or you don't. it's not a learned trait. If it was, then everyone would or could be a leader. That's the difference between "Leaders" and "Managers." That's why the Magic Johnsons and Michael Jordans only come along once in a lifetime. The Pattons and Churchills and the Mandela's of the world. There isn't anything wrong with being a manager. Many corporations are led by managers. The big difference is that you can't manage people into war. They have to be led.

I almost missed the "Butter Bar" question. Sorry. It's simply a term for a Lt who's just entering the military (2nd Lt). The color of their bars are sort of a soft gold. So we call them Butterbars. An O6 is a Col. We call them "Full Birds" and Lt Col's are sometimes called "Light Colonel" as in he/she "ain't there yet"
Yes, it is also a term for wet behind the ears.
I was asking KC about his "rank" only. It gives me a glimpse at his post outbreak experience and age. (Kids right out the academy are all college KIDS) They do their 4 years and are turned loose in the various branches. I could have asked if he was a 2nd Lt, but i'm an NCO and (Lt's 1st or 2nd) drive us crazy... period.

"like Lincoln, the best, most decisive lears are those who have a set purpose and the self-confidence to accomplish that objective. But effective visions and noble goals can be made worthless without solid decision-making leadership....Sometimes he is wrong and sometimes he chooses to compromise.." Lincoln on Leadership

Make a decision, act on that decision. if it's wrong, then it's wrong.. just MAKE a decision.

That's it for me.. signing off and out!

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Charisma is a leadership trait. You have it or you don't. it's not a learned trait. If it was, then everyone would or could be a leader. That's the difference between "Leaders" and "Managers." That's why the Magic Johnsons and Michael Jordans only come along once in a lifetime. The Pattons and Churchills and the Mandela's of the world. There isn't anything wrong with being a manager. Many corporations are led by managers. The big difference is that you can't manage people into war. They have to be led.

I almost missed the "Butter Bar" question. Sorry. It's simply a term for a Lt who's just entering the military (2nd Lt). The color of their bars are sort of a soft gold. So we call them Butterbars. An O6 is a Col. We call them "Full Birds" and Lt Col's are sometimes called "Light Colonel" as in he/she "ain't there yet"
Yes, it is also a term for wet behind the ears.
I was asking KC about his "rank" only. It gives me a glimpse at his post outbreak experience and age. (Kids right out the academy are all college KIDS) They do their 4 years and are turned loose in the various branches. I could have asked if he was a 2nd Lt, but i'm an NCO and (Lt's 1st or 2nd) drive us crazy... period.

"like Lincoln, the best, most decisive lears are those who have a set purpose and the self-confidence to accomplish that objective. But effective visions and noble goals can be made worthless without solid decision-making leadership....Sometimes he is wrong and sometimes he chooses to compromise.." Lincoln on Leadership

Make a decision, act on that decision. if it's wrong, then it's wrong.. just MAKE a decision.

That's it for me.. signing off and out!

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i'd fight back, buuut, 6 or 7 pages from now, its all gonna end in a stand off anyway so might as well save the trouble.

so what do you mean by full bird? where'd that one come from?

I think this is an interesting insight dealing somewhat closely to a lot of the things we're talking about here from a very experienced real life leader. Retired General Stanley McChrystal

http://www.ted.com/talks/stanley_mcchrystal.html

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

i'd fight back, buuut, 6 or 7 pages from now, its all gonna end in a stand off anyway so might as well save the trouble.

so what do you mean by full bird? where'd that one come from?

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Full Bird (Army, AF and Marines 06/Colonel)is a nick name just like Butter Bar, but BB is normally said with a hint of contempt because they're still wet behind the ears. Ones from the Academy are really looked at sideways. Prior Enlisted get a pass most of the time depending on their TIS (Time in Service).

Well....this topic hasn't been brought up in just over a month...I think I will just go ahead and bump it back into everyone's memory.

After all, Angel did just leave the room with a "prisoner" and a blind girl...And one or potentially both of them got shot. This is just one more example of why Angel should never lead the Tower.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Well....this topic hasn't been brought up in just over a month...I think I will just go ahead and bump it back into everyone's memory.

After all, Angel did just leave the room with a "prisoner" and a blind girl...And one or potentially both of them got shot. This is just one more example of why Angel should never lead the Tower.

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That's something said in hindsight of course ;) No pun intended.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Well....this topic hasn't been brought up in just over a month...I think I will just go ahead and bump it back into everyone's memory.

After all, Angel did just leave the room with a "prisoner" and a blind girl...And one or potentially both of them got shot. This is just one more example of why Angel should never lead the Tower.

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IT IS ON, IT IS ON TILL THE BREAK OF DAWN! (but I'm a bit busy right now, so I'll come back in a few hours and then IT WILL BE ON!)

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Originally Posted by Kc

That's something said in hindsight of course ;) No pun intended.

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I absolutely agree. If I had been in his shoes, I would have run down the hall to check too. My ultimate goal was to bait ra1th a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

IT IS ON, IT IS ON TILL THE BREAK OF DAWN! (but I'm a bit busy right now, so I'll come back in a few hours and then IT WILL BE ON!)

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And look! I Worked! :p

Its ok Ra1th, you don't have to be the only one to have Angel's back. :)

I don't think Angel was that much in the wrong leaving Hope in the room. She was there to learn how to help with guard duty, so they (Michael had no problem with her being there) trusted her to be able to do this. Pippen was handcuffed, and it sounds like Angel only went down the hall. I would have done the same thing, except I might have said to Hope to stay there and call out if she needed anything (but that is only if I had thought of it). There is not much he could have done differently.

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Originally Posted by cupcakezombie

Its ok Ra1th, you don't have to be the only one to have Angel's back. :)

I don't think Angel was that much in the wrong leaving Hope in the room. She was there to learn how to help with guard duty, so they (Michael had no problem with her being there) trusted her to be able to do this. Pippen was handcuffed, and it sounds like Angel only went down the hall. I would have done the same thing, except I might have said to Hope to stay there and call out if she needed anything (but that is only if I had thought of it). There is not much he could have done differently.

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I agree with you on this. I don't think its going to help Angel much if Hope did get shot though. If she dies, Angel's gonna get blamed for it, and I don't want to even think about how Datu's going to react, he might try to kill Angel for "letting her die."

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Originally Posted by HardKor

I agree with you on this. I don't think its going to help Angel much if Hope did get shot though. If she dies, Angel's gonna get blamed for it, and I don't want to even think about how Datu's going to react, he might try to kill Angel for "letting her die."

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How will Datu react? Same way Datu always reacts lol by running away crying .


Allright nik ( and Crowbar) , I just aced my finals, NOW I'M GONNA ACE YOU!

The argument is, Angel is at fault for leaving pippin unguarded to go check on the alarm going off in Burt's shop. I don't see what the problem is with this decision Pippin was chained... to a wall. He wasn't about to go anywhere. He wasn't going to be able to hurt Hope, because he was CHAINED. he wouldn't be able to cause chaos and craziness in the tower, because he was CHAINED. The guy wasn't going anywhere. So I think it's established, that Pippin was not a threat to the tower.

So the next step is Angel the Pippin is dead, and Hope or the radio has been shot? Yes, if he had not ran to check on the armory, they'd be alive. But maybe you're forgetting, the armory alarm had been tripped. The armory had been raided before, and the rat had stolen all of their supplies. When the alarm was tripped, the first reaction of any soldier, EVEN the infallible Michael would have done the same thing. The logic behind it is simple, Pippin was chained to a wall, he wasn't going anywhere. The armory on the other hand was possibly being raided by the traitor. The best choice at that time would have been to run and check out what was happening at the armory, and possibly find out who tried to break in. The armory is on the same floor as the guard room, and I believe they are both on the second floor. Well the majority of the tower has relocated itself to the 5th and 6th floors of the tower after the fire, so there is a very good chance that Angel was one of the only ones who were in the vicinity to hear the alarm go off. So basically, best decision he coulda made was to check out the armory rather than keep guard over pippin, because no one could have assumed that pippin would fall under attack. The only logical move in that situation was to go check on the armory.

Doesn't matter if it was a logical move or not, leadership is about perception and faith. You really think some residents of the tower, such as Steven, would want to be lead by a man who failed while he was on duty and had 1(2) people shot on his watch? I DOUBT IT!

Angel was right to go check but that doesn't excuse the fact that this was a huge nail in the "Angel ever leading the tower" coffin

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

How will Datu react? Same way Datu always reacts lol by running away crying .


Allright nik ( and Crowbar) , I just aced my finals, NOW I'M GONNA ACE YOU!

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Aww, you're so darling. And why are you bringing crowbar into this? He hasn't said anything about Angel recently.

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The argument is, Angel is at fault for leaving pippin unguarded to go check on the alarm going off in Burt's shop. I don't see what the problem is with this decision Pippin was chained... to a wall. He wasn't about to go anywhere. He wasn't going to be able to hurt Hope, because he was CHAINED. he wouldn't be able to cause chaos and craziness in the tower, because he was CHAINED. The guy wasn't going anywhere. So I think it's established, that Pippin was not a threat to the tower.

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I don't know how he's chained. Do you know how he was chained? Have you never seen someone strangled with a chain? If he felt like it, he could have wrapped that chain around anyone's throat. According to the chapter artwork, he's handcuffed to the bed frame. If he had horrible intentions in his mind, being left with the 14 year old blind girl seems like a great time to make your move and break free by destroying the bed frame. Is it likely? No. However, simply being chained doesn't make you completely danger-free. Hey, don't get me wrong, my first reaction would have been to run and investigate, but you know what? I would have at least paused to consider the 14 year old blind girl in the room with me. Given her some instruction as to hide something. But he left a defenseless 14 year old girl by herself with someone nobody trusts.

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So the next step is Angel the Pippin is dead, and Hope or the radio has been shot? Yes, if he had not ran to check on the armory, they'd be alive. But maybe you're forgetting, the armory alarm had been tripped. The armory had been raided before, and the rat had stolen all of their supplies. When the alarm was tripped, the first reaction of any soldier, EVEN the infallible Michael would have done the same thing. The logic behind it is simple, Pippin was chained to a wall, he wasn't going anywhere. The armory on the other hand was possibly being raided by the traitor. The best choice at that time would have been to run and check out what was happening at the armory, and possibly find out who tried to break in. The armory is on the same floor as the guard room, and I believe they are both on the second floor. Well the majority of the tower has relocated itself to the 5th and 6th floors of the tower after the fire, so there is a very good chance that Angel was one of the only ones who were in the vicinity to hear the alarm go off. So basically, best decision he coulda made was to check out the armory rather than keep guard over pippin, because no one could have assumed that pippin would fall under attack. The only logical move in that situation was to go check on the armory.

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Once again, 14 year old. Blind. In room. Man you no trusty. I understand that the alarm was tripped. And perhaps its more of an indictment of Michael/Burt (you know...the leaders of the Tower) than it is of Angel to say there isn't any system to get a hold of others in the Tower when something goes wrong. And if I'm not mistaken the guard room has been relocated to the 5th floor, along with everything else. So the store and armory would all be located in the same vicinity as the guard room. Remember, Lizzy fell asleep on guard duty and everyone in the Tower heard the fight because they were all right there. In theory, this means Angel wouldn't even have to like...leave the room to investigate the armory.

And what does he do once he's investigated the armory? Return to his post and wait for others to show up so they can all search. Why leave your post at all at that point? If they are all indeed located in the same hallway of this apartment building, they would have to pass you to escape because there's only one set of stairs, they balconies aren't an option because the ones below the 5th floor have been booby trapped, and you're 50 feet in the air and jumping out the window would have adverse health effects.

I understand I'm taking potshots at Angel after the fact. And as I said in my response to Kc I totally would have gone to investigate the alarm myself. But since I'm willing to admit that I would have made the same "mistake" Angel did, you have to admit that Angel fell for a distraction, and was lured away just as the Rat/Assassin intended him to be. He was chosen as the mark for this ruse, not Kelly who had been in that room with Pippin for the previous 6 hours.

Maybe some one with some military training can clean up the question for us.

When you're assigned guard duty (as Angel was) are you supposed to leave your station because an alarm goes off?

I see Guard Duty entails security of the whole building. Army General Order #1 is "I will Guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly releived." So his post includes security of Burts Armory Angel did the right thin in leaving the Guard Room, and add to that I'm sure that he was getting help as well and that would entail sending someone back to the Guard Room.
So I'd say that Angel did nothing wrong... really the fault lies in not having two people in the guard room on the same shift. That would have curtailed the Kelly/Lizzy falling asleep issues as well (But also take away some of the needed drama and plot movers)

Ra1th,
I agree with much of what you say. From an unbiased, rational point of view, Angel probably did what he had to do by leaving his post to investigate the alarm. The problem is, once everyone finds out what happens and shit starts to hit the fan, people aren't going to be rational or unbiased. There is going to be panic and chaos. And Angel is going to end up with the blame.
Someone, most likely Michael among others will probably stick up for him eventually, but people are still going to blame Angel for what happened. And Angel will probably end up blaming himself to some degree also. It might not be fair but its going to happen. People are going to look for a scapegoat to blame for this, and until the culprit is found Angel (assuming he isn't the culprit himself) is the easiest scapegoat.
And this is what puts another nail in the "will Angel ever become leader of the Tower" question. This sort of thing just keeps happening to him. He gets blamed for things that aren't necessarily his fault. He makes rational decisions that turn out to bite him on the ass (wanting to leave Burt behind, wanting to not let Lizzie and her boyfriend in because it was too dangerous, etc...) These are the sorts of things that on paper seems rational but make people angry. And now people are going to see him as failing to save Pippin and Hope (if Hope was killed). People just aren't going to want him as leader if that's the way they see him. Is that fair? Absolutely not! But whoever said life was fair?

Hahaha I coulda sworn you’d never be able to return but looks like you have, too bad I have the high ground this time.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Aww, you're so darling. And why are you bringing crowbar into this? He hasn't said anything about Angel recently. .

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He was hatin too just in the 22 thread.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I don't know how he's chained. Do you know how he was chained? Have you never seen someone strangled with a chain? If he felt like it, he could have wrapped that chain around anyone's throat. According to the chapter artwork, he's handcuffed to the bed frame. If he had horrible intentions in his mind, being left with the 14 year old blind girl seems like a great time to make your move and break free by destroying the bed frame. Is it likely? No. However, simply being chained doesn't make you completely danger-free. Hey, don't get me wrong, my first reaction would have been to run and investigate, but you know what? I would have at least paused to consider the 14 year old blind girl in the room with me. Given her some instruction as to hide something. But he left a defenseless 14 year old girl by herself with someone nobody trusts. .

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He was chained well enough that he was not considered a security risk by leader of the tower Michael. So if that was the issue, then blame him. You’re jumping to conclusions by assuming that he can just wrap the chain around someone’s throats. The next thing you should consider is that we the audience consider Pippin to be a bigger threat to the tower than the tower does. We have heard what scratch said about him. The tower has not, and because of that we are a lot more accusatory of pippin than the tower is. They do not trust him, they have no reason to, but at the same time they don’t believe him to be a stone cold killer. So what if he left Hope with alone with Pippin? It wasn’t pippin that killed her. Hell for all we know, pippin could have been good guy, probably wasn’t but no one can be sure, not yet.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Once again, 14 year old. Blind. In room. Man you no trusty. I understand that the alarm was tripped. And perhaps its more of an indictment of Michael/Burt (you know...the leaders of the Tower) than it is of Angel to say there isn't any system to get a hold of others in the Tower when something goes wrong. And if I'm not mistaken the guard room has been relocated to the 5th floor, along with everything else. So the store and armory would all be located in the same vicinity as the guard room. Remember, Lizzy fell asleep on guard duty and everyone in the Tower heard the fight because they were all right there. In theory, this means Angel wouldn't even have to like...leave the room to investigate the armory.

And what does he do once he's investigated the armory? Return to his post and wait for others to show up so they can all search. Why leave your post at all at that point? If they are all indeed located in the same hallway of this apartment building, they would have to pass you to escape because there's only one set of stairs, they balconies aren't an option because the ones below the 5th floor have been booby trapped, and you're 50 feet in the air and jumping out the window would have adverse health effects.

I understand I'm taking potshots at Angel after the fact. And as I said in my response to Kc I totally would have gone to investigate the alarm myself. But since I'm willing to admit that I would have made the same "mistake" Angel did, you have to admit that Angel fell for a distraction, and was lured away just as the Rat/Assassin intended him to be. He was chosen as the mark for this ruse, not Kelly who had been in that room with Pippin for the previous 6 hours.

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When Angel gets to the armory, He might catch the culprit. We don’t know for sure just yet. Why leave your post? Because Angel is one of the few people who could make it to the guard room in time to catch the culprit who broke in. We don’t know how many others heard the alarm. We don’t know what’s happening right now. But we do know Angel is one of the most capable soldiers in the tower, and he has a duty to go check out the disturbance. Also here’s something to keep in mind, if the killer could just walk in and shoot Pippin, and walk away undetected, then that hallway must not have been very crowded at all. In hind sight, its easy to say oh there were better choices that he could have made, but these are split second decisions if you are to stand around and think about all the possibilities and the best course of action, then the culprit will slip away. Besides even if the culprit ran back down the hallway towards angel, then he still has to leave the guard room to stop the culprit or to get a good look at the culprit. Even according to your plan angel has to leave the room. How can you be sure that Angel was the mark for the ruse? There is no evidence to support that Kelly would not have done the same thing Angel did. It’s far more likely that the culprit was coming up with a plan, and Angel was the one in the guard room while the culprit finished the plan.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Hahaha I coulda sworn you’d never be able to return but looks like you have, too bad I have the high ground this time.

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I'm so glad you can admit that every other time we've tiffed over Lt. Angel you've been fighting a losing battle. That's very big of you ;)

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He was chained well enough that he was not considered a security risk by leader of the tower Michael. So if that was the issue, then blame him. You’re jumping to conclusions by assuming that he can just wrap the chain around someone’s throats. The next thing you should consider is that we the audience consider Pippin to be a bigger threat to the tower than the tower does. We have heard what scratch said about him. The tower has not, and because of that we are a lot more accusatory of pippin than the tower is. They do not trust him, they have no reason to, but at the same time they don’t believe him to be a stone cold killer. So what if he left Hope with alone with Pippin? It wasn’t pippin that killed her. Hell for all we know, pippin could have been good guy, probably wasn’t but no one can be sure, not yet.

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14. Blind. Girl. There's a difference between her and an adult. To an adult, he's not a security risk. Were you capable of fighting off a determined adult at the age of 14? While blindfolded so you couldn't see them coming? Look, I'm not a parent, but leaving a handicapped child alone with a man nobody trusts to me, reeks to high heaven.

And I think you make as many assumption to think he isn't capable of doing anything just because he's chained to the wall (or bedframe depending on what you want to believe). In fact, I even helped debunk my own dastardly theory because I saw the artwork. The SFX lead me to believe it's an actual chain and not handcuffs, but that's neither here nor there.

There are still people who don't know if he's a maller or not (Steven) there are those who want to let him loose back into LA (Victor), and Michael can't make heads or tails of it because his mind frame is/has shifted since his time in the colony. Scratch's words be damned, Michael's words are you aren't to let Pippin out of your sight and he's not to be left alone. Angel failed to follow orders. And I'll just go ahead and make your point for you because I know you think I think Michael is perfect: Michael is at fault for leaving the guard as a single person shift.

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When Angel gets to the armory, He might catch the culprit. We don’t know for sure just yet. Why leave your post? Because Angel is one of the few people who could make it to the guard room in time to catch the culprit who broke in. We don’t know how many others heard the alarm. We don’t know what’s happening right now. But we do know Angel is one of the most capable soldiers in the tower, and he has a duty to go check out the disturbance. Also here’s something to keep in mind, if the killer could just walk in and shoot Pippin, and walk away undetected, then that hallway must not have been very crowded at all. In hind sight, its easy to say oh there were better choices that he could have made, but these are split second decisions if you are to stand around and think about all the possibilities and the best course of action, then the culprit will slip away. Besides even if the culprit ran back down the hallway towards angel, then he still has to leave the guard room to stop the culprit or to get a good look at the culprit. Even according to your plan angel has to leave the room. How can you be sure that Angel was the mark for the ruse? There is no evidence to support that Kelly would not have done the same thing Angel did. It’s far more likely that the culprit was coming up with a plan, and Angel was the one in the guard room while the culprit finished the plan.

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I never said the hallway was crowded. What I said was all it takes is to hide yourself in any other apartment near the guard room and the armory. Kick the door, set off the alarm, and hide. When Angel goes to inspect the armory by going inside to look for a thief, the assassin slipped by him, shot, and walked away before Angel knew what was going on (in theory. The chapter ends before we know this for certain). My point was, in order to escape the Tower if you are believing the armory was being robbed, they would have to walk/run past the guard room to get to the stairs (based off the assumption from the original guard room set up where it was by the stairwell door). If they were robbing the armory to keep things in the tower, they'd have to keep it on the 5th floor, and if they had people helping them on the street level Angel would have seen them on the monitors.

My plan? What plan? The plan where I said you wait for the thief to walk past you on the way to the stairs? Why would he have to leave the guard room if the thief ran into him to the stairwell door where he'd have to go to escape? Point a gun. Shoot. Thief dead. Angel hero, and a 14 year old blind girl isn't left alone with a man nobody trusts.

Maybe Kelly reacts the same way. But it's an awfully big risk if you're trying to take out someone out and you use a diversionary tactic like setting off an alarm. Now if you don't succeed, everyone is on high alert and you've made your job that much harder. I'd make sure the person working the guard room is guaranteed to leave to check out the room and not call for back up. Angel thinks he can handle everything. And if this person knows Angel well, they would know how to entice him away from a target.

All you have to do is admit Angel fell victim to a diversion that resulted in the death of at least one person and possibly two. Is that fair of me? Possibly not. But it's one more nugget of evidence against Angel and why he should never be the leader of the Tower.

"I'm so glad you can admit that every other time we've tiffed over Lt. Angel you've been fighting a losing battle. That's very big of you ;)"



That’s Lt TUNUDO kthnxbai



“14. Blind. Girl. There's a difference between her and an adult. To an adult, he's not a security risk. Were you capable of fighting off a determined adult at the age of 14? While blindfolded so you couldn't see them coming? Look, I'm not a parent, but leaving a handicapped child alone with a man nobody trusts to me, reeks to high heaven. “

Once again crazy situation, shit’s going down, some douche is about to steal your supplies, screw the blind girl, she’ll be fine, what’s the worst that could happen? Ohhh noooo some dude with a gun is gonna show up and slaughter everyone in the room…. Oh wait… well shit. What was the chance of that happening one in a thousand?

“And I think you make as many assumption to think he isn't capable of doing anything just because he's chained to the wall (or bedframe depending on what you want to believe). In fact, I even helped debunk my own dastardly theory because I saw the artwork. The SFX lead me to believe it's an actual chain and not handcuffs, but that's neither here nor there. “





Why would he kill hope? What good does that do him? And even if it does. Stopping someone from breaking into the damn armory and stealing all their weapons and ammo again is worth more than the 1 in a thousand chance that pippin would kill hope. And you know what? Pippin didn’t kill hope.




“There are still people who don't know if he's a maller or not (Steven) there are those who want to let him loose back into LA (Victor), and Michael can't make heads or tails of it because his mind frame is/has shifted since his time in the colony. Scratch's words be damned, Michael's words are you aren't to let Pippin out of your sight and he's not to be left alone. Angel failed to follow orders. And I'll just go ahead and make your point for you because I know you think I think Michael is perfect: Michael is at fault for leaving the guard as a single person shift. “



Yeah I know YOU don’t think Michael is perfect, but every other person on this forum thinks he’s god’s gift to the zombie wasteland, so showing people that Michael the perfect soldier would have done the same thing makes it easier to say that Angel didn’t make a bad call.




“I never said the hallway was crowded. What I said was all it takes is to hide yourself in any other apartment near the guard room and the armory. Kick the door, set off the alarm, and hide. When Angel goes to inspect the armory by going inside to look for a thief, the assassin slipped by him, shot, and walked away before Angel knew what was going on (in theory. The chapter ends before we know this for certain). My point was, in order to escape the Tower if you are believing the armory was being robbed, they would have to walk/run past the guard room to get to the stairs (based off the assumption from the original guard room set up where it was by the stairwell door). If they were robbing the armory to keep things in the tower, they'd have to keep it on the 5th floor, and if they had people helping them on the street level Angel would have seen them on the monitors. “



Ok this is some crazy shiz, and I can’t concentrate on that level right now, so whatevers, I’m just gonna say it was a split second decision, no one thinks this far ahead in real life. So he did what his instincts told him to do.



“My plan? What plan? The plan where I said you wait for the thief to walk past you on the way to the stairs? Why would he have to leave the guard room if the thief ran into him to the stairwell door where he'd have to go to escape? Point a gun. Shoot. Thief dead. Angel hero, and a 14 year old blind girl isn't left alone with a man nobody trusts. “
Who the hell expected the raid on the armory to be a distraction? What are the chances that the whole thing was a set up so that someone could go shoot Pippin? This is ridiculous, you’re saying that when Angel heard the alarm go off, instead of going to check on it, he should have stayed in his room, and waited out because he psychically knew that the rat would come in and shoot pippin. You’re taking into consideration facts that Angel did not know, and facts that YOU did not know during the time of the attack. When that alarm tripped, the best decision was to go check it out. Pippin was not a threat to Hope, Pippin never attacked hope. Someone else attacked THEM. To expect angel to have stayed in the room and waited for the attacker to come is just plain stupid

“Maybe Kelly reacts the same way. But it's an awfully big risk if you're trying to take out someone out and you use a diversionary tactic like setting off an alarm. Now if you don't succeed, everyone is on high alert and you've made your job that much harder. I'd make sure the person working the guard room is guaranteed to leave to check out the room and not call for back up. Angel thinks he can handle everything. And if this person knows Angel well, they would know how to entice him away from a target.

All you have to do is admit Angel fell victim to a diversion that resulted in the death of at least one person and possibly two. Is that fair of me? Possibly not. But it's one more nugget of evidence against Angel and why he should never be the leader of the Tower”





I’ll admit Angel fell for a diversion, But Michael would have done the same thing. Burt would have done the same thing. Saul would have done the same thing. You can’t blame angel for something like this because when this was all going down, when you first heard that alarm go off, did you think, oh I think angel should stay here and protect hope? NO! you thought oh shit someone is raiding the armory get on it angel. And THEN the rat shoots pippin, and maybe hope. This isn’t a bad leadership call for Angel. That was the best decision to make at the time.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

That’s Lt TUNUDO kthnxbai

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Well....technically that's not right. At least not until the canon of the show gets fixed....till then, Lt. Angel!

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Once again crazy situation, shit’s going down, some douche is about to steal your supplies, screw the blind girl, she’ll be fine, what’s the worst that could happen? Ohhh noooo some dude with a gun is gonna show up and slaughter everyone in the room…. Oh wait… well shit. What was the chance of that happening one in a thousand?

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And here's where you and I differ on Angel left and right. Angel does not think of the people around him. "Screw the old guy. Screw Lizzy and Todd. Screw Saul. Screw the 14 year old. I've got to go to something else instead!" You know what, all this stuff would be fine with me if he simply said, "Hope, keep your head down", "Hope, get under the bed", "Hope, hide in the closet", or "Hope, stand over here away from that guy that no one trusts" before he left. He left a child out in the open when something potentially dangerous was going down....with a guy nobody trusts.

Angel does not seem to think of human beings as people. He think of them as something else, and that is disturbing to me. At least he's been consistent. If this was a sudden thing, I would just be confused instead of annoyed. He's now seen how people react when he makes those decisions (leaving Burt and Saul) yet he continually does it. The circumstances from when he first arrived at the Tower have changed. From the military point of view, he probably has done nothing wrong, but he's not being judged by the military. He's being judged by civilians, who can't disassociate people from being instruments of war he can view them as.

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Why would he kill hope? What good does that do him? And even if it does. Stopping someone from breaking into the damn armory and stealing all their weapons and ammo again is worth more than the 1 in a thousand chance that pippin would kill hope. And you know what? Pippin didn’t kill hope.

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So it's ok that he left Hope alone with the person no one trusts because he got shot before he could potentially do anything? And once again, my point is if the guard room is outside the door to the stairwell, you don't.... have to leave. You can wait for the thief to walk down the hall to the stairs because there are no other options available to them. They can't escape any other way. He didn't need to leave the guard room unguarded. They could take all they wanted, but they can't get anywhere because Angel is there. There are other options available....other than doing what I've ended just about every paragraph on the last two pages with involving an untrustworthy Pippin and a 14 year old girl who is visually impaired.

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Yeah I know YOU don’t think Michael is perfect, but every other person on this forum thinks he’s god’s gift to the zombie wasteland, so showing people that Michael the perfect soldier would have done the same thing makes it easier to say that Angel didn’t make a bad call.

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Hell, I said I would do the same thing....but after I protected the 14 year old blind girl. I think most everyone's instinct would be to check the alarm. I just think most people with a soul would protect a child first, then check on the alarm. If someone is really rooting through the armory. It's going to take longer than the 10 seconds it takes to safely stash Hope and run down the hall.

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Who the hell expected the raid on the armory to be a distraction? What are the chances that the whole thing was a set up so that someone could go shoot Pippin? This is ridiculous, you’re saying that when Angel heard the alarm go off, instead of going to check on it, he should have stayed in his room, and waited out because he psychically knew that the rat would come in and shoot pippin. You’re taking into consideration facts that Angel did not know, and facts that YOU did not know during the time of the attack. When that alarm tripped, the best decision was to go check it out. Pippin was not a threat to Hope, Pippin never attacked hope. Someone else attacked THEM. To expect angel to have stayed in the room and waited for the attacker to come is just plain stupid

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I am simply presenting an alternative. Besides, as I've said over and over again: I/you/Angel/Michael/Everyone on this forum/Everyone on the facebook page would check the alarm. Its just in my opinion, the blatant lack of regard for the safety of a child is disturbing. Sorry to beat the same drum on the same note repeatedly.

And what else is there to know about Pippin other than nobody trusts him? I'm not even considering what happened with Pippin and Scratch because I don't know who or what Pippin was or what his purpose might have been. His story could have been completely true for all we know. I don't consider Scratch's scene about Pippin in terms of the trust because quite honestly, I never expended the brain power to figure it out. There wasn't enough information to draw a conclusion from it, and it was swamped among coded talk so Lizzy wouldn't understand what was being said. I've tried to take Pippin at face value, and on his face (or whatever might be left of it) was nobody trusted him, and I didn't trust him from his answers in the interrogation scene in the last episode.

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I’ll admit Angel fell for a diversion, But Michael would have done the same thing. Burt would have done the same thing. Saul would have done the same thing. You can’t blame angel for something like this because when this was all going down, when you first heard that alarm go off, did you think, oh I think angel should stay here and protect hope? NO! you thought oh shit someone is raiding the armory get on it angel. And THEN the rat shoots pippin, and maybe hope. This isn’t a bad leadership call for Angel. That was the best decision to make at the time.

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Yup. I would bet everyone in the Tower (barring the assassin of course) would have fallen for this ruse. And someone should have learned a lesson from the initial betrayal and instituted team guard duty (both Burt and Michael) because its harder to do something dastardly if someone is there with you. Sadly, this wasn't a lesson learned. I betcha one of the first lines Michael says when he finds Pippin dead is to attack Angel for leaving him alone despite being told he isn't to be left alone. If you can't follow orders, you sure as hell can't give them.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

And here's where you and I differ on Angel left and right. Angel does not think of the people around him. "Screw the old guy. Screw Lizzy and Todd. Screw Saul. Screw the 14 year old. I've got to go to something else instead!" You know what, all this stuff would be fine with me if he simply said, "Hope, keep your head down", "Hope, get under the bed", "Hope, hide in the closet", or "Hope, stand over here away from that guy that no one trusts" before he left. He left a child out in the open when something potentially dangerous was going down....with a guy nobody trusts.

Angel does not seem to think of human beings as people. He think of them as something else, and that is disturbing to me. At least he's been consistent. If this was a sudden thing, I would just be confused instead of annoyed. He's now seen how people react when he makes those decisions (leaving Burt and Saul) yet he continually does it. The circumstances from when he first arrived at the Tower have changed. From the military point of view, he probably has done nothing wrong, but he's not being judged by the military. He's being judged by civilians, who can't disassociate people from being instruments of war he can view them as.

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The reason he has the position he has is because he has the military training. People in high ranking military positions always get judged by civilians, but if as you say he is making the right decisions from a military position then it shouldn't change the decisions that he makes or will have to make. There could come a time where his type of choices become critical to the survival of the tower.

In regards to leaving Hope without saying anything to her, would saying Hope stay here have made any difference? Then on the flip side, taking Hope with him could potentially have been more dangerous. Someone breaking in to get guns is not where you should take a blind girl. We still don't actually know what has happened down at the armory, there could be all hell breaking loose, and Hope staying in the guard room, even with a prisoner is safer. In fact that is probably the first place people will go when they come to check out the alarm.

I hope the irony of your last sentence is not lost on people...

Ra1th to hell with Angel. let Skittles take over the tower. Think of all that candy left alone to ruin in all those stores. If Skittles was there he'd rescue it all! *puts out the Skittles signal* Where can that candy munching freak be ???