Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower?

[Ra1th]

but that is what i said (ok i admit not in those words), all i said was Angel is not ready untill something in him changes, i might of needed to have been clearer on that but Ra1th took offence to what i said, i didnt say no or never, just not currently.

hell he might prove him self in the next chapter and completely prove me worng, when they attack the mallers new base (most likelly were michael, pegs, kelly, hope, victor and Dr.??? (dam whats her name sauls mother) escaped from) cant wait to see Angel pull a Rambo lol

yeah fun fact about me, attack angel, and i'll do everything and anything i can to bring you down

but then you get guys like nik and crowbar who enjoy debates, and they'll want more and then it turns into a giant war

[mythicgr66]

yeah fun fact about me, attack angel, and i'll do everything and anything i can to bring you down

but then you get guys like nik and crowbar who enjoy debates, and they'll want more and then it turns into a giant war

well i got owned lol

[nikvoodoo]

The right decision in both of those situations was to LEAVE THEM. Burt was a dying old man, the chances were one in a million that he turns out to be this gun toting clint eastwood badass. More than likely he would have died on them and it would have been a waste of precious supplies. It was a miracle things turned out the way it did.

The right thing to do in those situations is determined by the world in which we live. Without living in a zombie apocalypse, we (as humans living safely in our quiet non-zombified world) can't say what is right or wrong. The entire purpose of a species is to thrive and survive. That instinct might become sharper and more aware once the world as we know it ends. Was Riley also wrong for shooting the zombie with an arrow outside of the Arena that was dragging that woman who died seconds later? I'd argue no she wasn't. She was trying to save a life.

As with lizzy, the right decision should have been to leave her. By shooting the lock and opening the door for her, Michael risked the lives of every person in that tower.
From a leadership standpoint, Angel made the right decision both times, but he was overridden by “hail mary� logic, basically let’s make an insane decision and follow through and hope for the best, if it succeeds, we’re heroes, if it fails we’re all dead. Since this is fiction, they pull off some insane things, and avoid serious repercussions for very stupid decisions, but the decisions Angel made were not so much cowardice as they were the best possible choices. And considering it from that perspective, Michael and Burt both have yet to realize this, and this could lead to their downfall. The hail mary only has to fail once to ruin everything .

Angel's decisions were book smart, not street smart. We can agree there is a difference between the two. Angel is a very book smart leader, Michael is a very street smart leader. Continuing with my logic above, Angel is prepared to lead in a world that no longer exists. Michael (though also prepared for the same world Angel is) also has enough experience to be able to riff off the knowledge he's gained to make decisions. Think of it like classical music vs. jazz music. Both Angel and Michael are wonderful trumpet players, but Angel (our classical player) sticks to the notes on the page, whereas Michael (the jazz man) takes that basic idea and improves on it because of his understanding of musicality and style.

Yes, if Angel was in charge Burt, and Lizzy would be dead. Do you know why they are alive? Because Michael used a hail mary, and things worked out, when the hail mary works, everyone is happy, and you’re a hero, but do you know what happens if a hail mary fails? You lose EVERYTHING, had lizzy been saved, but Michael not reached the door in time, EVRYONE in the tower would have died. Since this is a story it worked out, had burt turned out to be any normal old man, which all things considering what are the odds burt is the marksman that he is, and that he has a stockpile of illegal weapons. Its very low, burt would have been a bad addition to the team, he would be an old guy who’s physically feeble and cant do much to help out the team, but the hail mary worked, and he turned out to be a gun toting badass.

So you're saying that Angel has the right to decide who lives and who dies by virtue of their perceived value? And Michael was already standing at the door when he shot the lock off. There was no getting to the door. He was already there. You say hail mary, I say calculated risk.

As for the Mallers, we do not have enough information to state, that the Mallers would have won without the weapons and ammo from burt’s armory. There are an infinite number of possibilities that could have happened had they not gotten all the ammo from burt, they would have made that a priority and they would have found it somewhere else. This is not a valid argument because it is not supported by any evidence.

No, this is a valid argument. Without Burt's guns and ammo not only does the Tower fall, Angel dies two chapters earlier in the arena trying to escape. And if they get outside, they get swamped and are unable to leave because they can't fend off the zombies attacking the hummer. If you claim this is an invalid argument, so is your counter that they would have made ammunition a priority. That, too, is not supported by evidence.

Do I want angel as the leader right now? No not right now, because right now, the situation is dire, and Michael has more experience leading the tower in such situations, Angel needs to be eased into leadership, right now, the tower is on the brink of war, don’t change horses when crossing a stream.

I'm wondering how the gentle easing and exchange of power will occur in a zombie apocalypse? The situation is always going to be dire (supplies are running short, other groups coming to attack etc etc). In Kc's universe, we've really only seen power taken in one way: abruptly. If Angel needs to be eased into it, he will continue to be the Riker to Michael's Picard unless Michael is incapacitated in some manner, Angel is incapacitated in some manner or the series ends.

P.S.- Be gentle on the newcomers man!

[Wicked Sid]

excuse me?

(you win voodoo, i stayed retired for a total of one and a half days, screw that, i'm back )

he just jumped through a damn window and killed a damn behemoth, i'm sorry i dont understand how that isnt "brave enough" or "believable". How does this even affect leadership?

I dont even understand your argument, Burt was a gunny sgt so he gained leadership abilities? well then, Angel was a 2nd ltnt he was specifically TRAINED to lead, his failures came in not knowing what to do in the field, and lemme tell ya, i dont see precious michael or burt taking down behemoths

Mike may have done it first. Blam. Just because Angel went through OC school doesn't mean that he's garaunteed to become a good leader or, for that matter, a leader at all. Only time creates diamonds.

[Luna Guardian]

As long as Michael and Burt are around and willing to lead, no, I don't think Angel will be able to take control of the Tower. However, should Michael go on another one of his "walkabouts", I think there's a possibility that Angel might take charge. He's not a dumb guy, he's just woefully unprepared for the new world we find our heroes in. With time, he'll adapt and become a better leader

[Ra1th]

The right thing to do in those situations is determined by the world in which we live. Without living in a zombie apocalypse, we (as humans living safely in our quiet non-zombified world) can't say what is right or wrong. The entire purpose of a species is to thrive and survive. That instinct might become sharper and more aware once the world as we know it ends. Was Riley also wrong for shooting the zombie with an arrow outside of the Arena that was dragging that woman who died seconds later? I'd argue no she wasn't. She was trying to save a life.

Angel's decisions were book smart, not street smart. We can agree there is a difference between the two. Angel is a very book smart leader, Michael is a very street smart leader. Continuing with my logic above, Angel is prepared to lead in a world that no longer exists. Michael (though also prepared for the same world Angel is) also has enough experience to be able to riff off the knowledge he's gained to make decisions. Think of it like classical music vs. jazz music. Both Angel and Michael are wonderful trumpet players, but Angel (our classical player) sticks to the notes on the page, whereas Michael (the jazz man) takes that basic idea and improves on it because of his understanding of musicality and style.

Michael leads and is able to improvise using experience he’s gained from the old world, combined with the post apocalyptic world experience he’s gained. He used his oldworld expertise to gain a footing in the new world, and began leading a small group of people, as time went by he gained experience and the group slowly grew larger so he was eased into this role and gained the experience he needed to lead and improvise.

So what I’m saying now is that Angel has gained the field experience that Michael once had that angel lacked, but for him to lead he doesn’t get eased into the role like Michael did. If he is to step into the role, there will be 20-30 people depending on him at all times, so he needs more to become a great leader. (this is what the last war was on, charisma, fire, etc). I’d say angel has the ability to improvise in the field, what he needs to be able to do now, basically he applied his book smarts to the real world and gained the street smarts needed to navigate the post apocalyptic world. I’m saying he needs to do the same thing with leadership. When he does, I think he’ll make for an even greater leader than Michael.

So you're saying that Angel has the right to decide who lives and who dies by virtue of their perceived value? And Michael was already standing at the door when he shot the lock off. There was no getting to the door. He was already there. You say hail mary, I say calculated risk.

You say calculated risk, the show says acting without thinking. If you recall after that scene, Angel pulls Michael aside and yells at him for jeopardizing the safety of the entire tower to save one person. To which Michael responded,” what was I supposed to do? “let them die?”, and angel’s response was yes. Because had Michael failed, everyone would have died. After this saul intervenes, and he says, don’t listen to angel, he’s a prick. Michael takes a moment to calm down and thinks for a second then regretfully replies.” He was right, I put the entire tower at risk by opening that door” basically he admits he acted on instinct, to save someone because that’s his training as a soldier. Then saul gives his speech on hail mary passes. This is the difference between a soldier and an officer. As a soldier Michael’s job was to do everything to keep everyone alive, officers have to make difficult decisions on who lives and who dies. A friend of mine who’s training to be an officer in the marine corp told me, that officers are often kept apart from their soldiers because they don’t want them getting too attached to their men, because sometimes its necessary to send people to their deaths. Those are the difficult decisions that a leader has to make. Michael made a mistake that day plain and simple, and as you’ve said before, perspective perspective, we’ve seen the perspective where lizzy becomes a great asset to the tower, had she died then and there, her death would have been trivial at best, she would have been some girl that they couldn’t save. It’s the same story with burt, people are angry at the thought of angel not saving burt, had angel not saved burt, burt would have been a trivial character who died. No one would have cared, but we see from a perspective with burt, he’s important to us.


When you ask, if the leader has the right to decide who lives and who dies by the virtue of their perceived value”, I say yes, that is a leader’s choice, and that is the leader’s burden. This is something an officer in the military must deal with, sometimes the best choice means people die. Sometimes if it’s too much of an effort, some people must be left to suffer. A good leader must put the safety of his people first, if that means that some random old man who might already be dead not be saved because there is a serious lack of supplies, then so be it. It is the leader’s burden and his choice to decide who lives and who dies.

No, this is a valid argument. Without Burt's guns and ammo not only does the Tower fall, Angel dies two chapters earlier in the arena trying to escape. And if they get outside, they get swamped and are unable to leave because they can't fend off the zombies attacking the hummer. If you claim this is an invalid argument, so is your counter that they would have made ammunition a priority. That, too, is not supported by evidence.

ok I didn’t state things clearly there, what I meant to say was that, the story developed a certain way because of the events that happened. All I’m saying is that, there is more than one way to reach the same destination. We don’t know how the story would have turned out had burt and lizzy not been saved, but we cannot reach the conclusion that the tower would have died without burt/lizzy, because maybe burt being left behind and lizzy dying at the front door would have unlocked other possibilities, other roads to go down, other paths to follow. In short, its possible that if lizzy and burt weren’t there, maybe the tower wouldn’t have encountered the Mallers at all? Who knows? We sure as hell don’t, cause that’s not the path the story followed.

I'm wondering how the gentle easing and exchange of power will occur in a zombie apocalypse? The situation is always going to be dire (supplies are running short, other groups coming to attack etc etc). In Kc's universe, we've really only seen power taken in one way: abruptly. If Angel needs to be eased into it, he will continue to be the Riker to Michael's Picard unless Michael is incapacitated in some manner, Angel is incapacitated in some manner or the series ends.

As for how gentle the exchange of power will be, right now is a VERY bad time, because right now, the tower is in a state of crisis. Even when Michael wanted to stop being leader he did not stop being leader during the war with the Mallers or during the fire, because shit was going down, and a change of power was not possible at that time. He quit after the war, after things had cooled down, were things bad then? Yes there was a lot that had to be done, but it was a calmer situation than right now, Right now we are accelerating to a war, saul is on a warpath, the tower came this close to launching a full frontal assault on the Mallers. The situation is heightening fast, now is definitely not the time for a power switch, plus Michael is doing good, he’s fired up, he just got his job back, he wont be changing leadership for a while. but when that time does come, it has to be either AFTER a climax or during the lull between the climax and the next storyline climax, not right before or during a climax.. if that made any sense

[Ra1th]

Mike may have done it first. Blam. Just because Angel went through OC school doesn't mean that he's garaunteed to become a good leader or, for that matter, a leader at all. Only time creates diamonds.

no he's not, as a matter of fact, when angel first started, he was really incapable in the field, he couldnt do anything, despite his officer training, but he's grown past that now, he's one of the best men to send into the field, no matter what his mission might be, Angel will always succeed. (Thats right haters, come get some, Angel has never failed a single mission he's been on). So now he has the street smarts, and the officer training, what he needs now is charisma and the fire to want to lead.

[Ra1th]

As long as Michael and Burt are around and willing to lead, no, I don't think Angel will be able to take control of the Tower. However, should Michael go on another one of his "walkabouts", I think there's a possibility that Angel might take charge. He's not a dumb guy, he's just woefully unprepared for the new world we find our heroes in. With time, he'll adapt and become a better leader

i'll give you the michael part, but Burt is done, he had a shot at leadership, and he's done, he wants nothing to do with it, besides his storyline revolves around protecting his friends and keeping them safe because he wasnt able to save his wife.

[ryanlm09]

Angel will take control and will possibly have the position for a long time

[ryanlm09]

... but because he takes the position, he will die a slow, horrible death