Chapter 45-3: Distorted Truths

[Osiris]

How exactly would this make her not-evil?

Did I say it would? I don't see that in my post. I'm merely pointing out something important:

We all love Burt and Riley, right? They're decent people pushed too far. We only know this because we're given their stories, we're made to love them. Now we're being shown how their history twists them to do terrible things. All the people who've cried out for Scratch's blood are going to revel in Riley getting her information... by whatever means necessary, and they're okay with it because they understand what she went through to get to that place. That's a luxury Scratch was never given. You can say, "But... but she's evil," all you want, but the fact is Riley is about to head down the same road, taking Burt along with her. What does that say about either of them, about us? I've said from the start Scratch is misunderstood, and has a great deal of trauma in her life that shaped her into the person she had to be to survive, a theory that was proven by the reveal of her sexual and physical abuse. Riley has reached a point of no return, there will be zero redemption for her in the eyes of all but the hypocrite if she goes through with her plan to torture the information out of Tardust. I'd be very surprised if Kc pussed out during the writing process, and lets Riley back down--or be talked down by Burt. BUT! We'll see what happens.

[LiamKerrington]

All the people who've cried out for Scratch's blood are going to revel in Riley getting her information... by whatever means necessary, and they're okay with it because they understand what she went through to get to that place.

No. Not all the people. I, for example, have a lot of trouble accepting anything in that direction. Riley turns to the dark side of things, and I don't like it, appreciate it, support it, love it, or whatever; the opposite is true actually. And from what I read there is quite a number of WA fans that have bad feelings about Riley acting that way, too.

But in general I tend to agree with you: there are enough Riley-fans or Survivor-fans which seem to live by double-standards, which is btw quite common especially with civilized people.

edit 1:
[Actually I would like to "like" your posting; but since you put all Riley fans into the same pot of argument/ opinion or whatever (ie accepting her to do some torturing), I don't feel like doing so.]

edit 2:
As for Riley performing torture on Tardust: As for now we only have reason to believe that she is going to do it; but yet she has not done it, right? So maybe Burt and/or her own sanity will hinder her enough.

Best wishes!
Liam

[Osiris]

No. Not all the people. I, for example, have a lot of trouble accepting anything in that direction. Riley turns to the dark side of things, and I don't like it, appreciate it, support it, love it, or whatever; the opposite is true actually. And from what I read there is quite a number of WA fans that have bad feelings about Riley acting that way, too.

But in general I tend to agree with you: there are enough Riley-fans or Survivor-fans which seem to live by double-standards, which is btw quite common especially with civilized people.

edit 1:
[Actually I would like to "like" your posting; but since you put all Riley fans into the same pot of argument/ opinion or whatever (ie accepting her to do some torturing), I don't feel like doing so.]

edit 2:
As for Riley performing torture on Tardust: As for now we only have reason to believe that she is going to do it; but yet she has not done it, right? So maybe Burt and/or her own sanity will hinder her enough.

Best wishes!
Liam

I put everyone into that category not for being a fan of Riley, but for their staunch refusal to see Scratch as a person with problems, and merely a being of pure, unredeemable evil. They tend to be the same people who lost their minds over Kalani being the rat, but felt sorry for him because of the circumstance they were privy to, roundly accepting his last act as one of redemption. The double standard is what turns me off. I don't care if you like the post or not, it doesn't stop it from being true, the Kalani fiasco is proof of this.

[Jannit]

I put everyone into that category not for being a fan of Riley, but for their staunch refusal to see Scratch as a person with problems, and merely a being of pure, unredeemable evil. They tend to be the same people who lost their minds over Kalani being the rat, but felt sorry for him because of the circumstance they were privy to, roundly accepting his last act as one of redemption. The double standard is what turns me off. I don't care if you like the post or not, it doesn't stop it from being true, the Kalani fiasco is proof of this.

Scratch is a really interesting character and I agree with you 100% that she is just another person with problems. In my opinion, I think the story leads people to hate her as we don't get the same level of detail about her as we do of the other characters. All of our experiences with Scratch are from the point of view of the "good guys" in the story. It's easy for them to hate her given what has happened and in a live-or-die type of situation it's reasonable.

At some point I think it'd be really interesting to see Scratch's journal. Maybe after the show is finished? It could explain a lot of questions I have about her and others may have too. What did she do before Z-Day? What was it that caused her and Latch to be so close? Yeah they're siblings but their bond seems to go much further than that. Did she go through a progression like we're seeing with Riley? For all we know she could've been a kindergarten teacher at one point. It'd be great to get the other side of the story.

Kc, there's a money-generating idea for you. Sell the Scratch journal to make some money for your next project! With as thorough as you are about the story, I wouldn't be surprised if an outline of one exists already anyways.

ETA:

She will be corrupted with no way back. We'll see.

There's always a way back!

[Osiris]

Scratch is a really interesting character and I agree with you 100% that she is just another person with problems. In my opinion, I think the story leads people to hate her as we don't get the same level of detail about her as we do of the other characters. All of our experiences with Scratch are from the point of view of the "good guys" in the story. It's easy for them to hate her given what has happened and in a live-or-die type of situation it's reasonable.

At some point I think it'd be really interesting to see Scratch's journal. Maybe after the show is finished? It could explain a lot of questions I have about her and others may have too. What did she do before Z-Day? What was it that caused her and Latch to be so close? Yeah they're siblings but their bond seems to go much further than that. Did she go through a progression like we're seeing with Riley? For all we know she could've been a kindergarten teacher at one point. It'd be great to get the other side of the story.

Kc, there's a money-generating idea for you. Sell the Scratch journal to make some money for your next project! With as thorough as you are about the story, I wouldn't be surprised if an outline of one exists already anyways.

ETA:

There's always a way back!

I can't see Scratch sitting down to do any sort of journalling at the end of the day beyond a grocery list. She seems more the type to try to avoid dealing with her emotions. She certain has a Shit List though.

[Jannit]

I can't see Scratch sitting down to do any sort of journalling at the end of the day beyond a grocery list. She seems more the type to try to avoid dealing with her emotions. She certain has a Shit List though.

True but a girl can dream!

[LiamKerrington]

I put everyone into that category not for being a fan of Riley, but for their staunch refusal to see Scratch as a person with problems, and merely a being of pure, unredeemable evil. They tend to be the same people who lost their minds over Kalani being the rat, but felt sorry for him because of the circumstance they were privy to, roundly accepting his last act as one of redemption. The double standard is what turns me off. I don't care if you like the post or not, it doesn't stop it from being true, the Kalani fiasco is proof of this.

I understand that Scratch's behavior as a survivor and a toughened, hardened and strong woman roots in the fate she had. And I feel very sorry for her that she was forced to follow that dark road.
But I am not willing to accept this as an explanation, justification, or simply general reason for any behavior of her. The killing of Charly? Taking Kalani's child hostage in order to force him to do things he wouldn't have done? Twisting words in anyones mouth and to distort the sense of their talkings just to get a better position? Her vile attempt to make Angel speak in her favor, and then by failing with her attempts simply to kill him? And then the torture of Burt, just because she wanted to know where Pegs is? Except for the confrontation with Durai none of these things have to do with the struggle of her survival or can be linked back to her fate. What she did (and still does) is making everyone and everything responsible for her situation without caring for the correct links. She crosses lines as she likes, and almost everything she does is only about herself, her self-pity, lust for revenge, murder, deceit. There are only very few moments in which she has shown a different side. And I would have loved to see more of it to change my mind. But even though she somehow "helped" Lizzy, and although she seems to keep to some very basic core-ideas of working together with a few other survivors, she really is just that: evil. And I don't see anything that could justify, explain, or excuse it. Some time in the past she disconnected from most values, and she sticks with her ways not accepting that there could be others who have just the same right to survive and live their own lives.

As for Kalani: Granted. I only understand, why he did what he did. And I totally agree with Kalani, when he has said that a father would do anything to save his child. That does not make anything he did right; and here, too, there is no excuse or justification for him being a rat and adding a lot to the deep jeopardy the Tower-people got into; but people should remember: basically it was Saul's crazyness that lead to the fall of the Tower, and only very few voices have criticized that. Anyway: Kalani's deeds were the deeds of desperation. And you cannot blame him alone for doing so without considering Scratch's part in it. After all she made him her tool; and if he had not complied, Hannah would have been dead even earlier, and maybe he, too. Why? Because Scratch behaves like that. Because Scratch is an evil bitch. If she does not get what she wants, she puts people into deep misery - this happened with Charly, with Durai, Angel with direct murdering, and indirectly with most other folks around.

I guess we will disagree about this forever.

That does not matter.

And yet I agree with you that living by double-standards is way too common.

And yeah, you don't need to tell me that you don't care about likes and shit; I know you don't care. You simply did not get my point, which is: don't put everyone into the same pot, when it is obvious that the opinions vary a lot more than your postings imply. It is not "all", just maybe "some" or "many", depending on what exact topic you refer to.

Best wishes!
Liam

[Osiris]

I understand that Scratch's behavior as a survivor and a toughened, hardened and strong woman roots in the fate she had. And I feel very sorry for her that she was forced to follow that dark road.
But I am not willing to accept this as an explanation, justification, or simply general reason for any behavior of her. The killing of Charly? Taking Kalani's child hostage in order to force him to do things he wouldn't have done? Twisting words in anyones mouth and to distort the sense of their talkings just to get a better position? Her vile attempt to make Angel speak in her favor, and then by failing with her attempts simply to kill him? And then the torture of Burt, just because she wanted to know where Pegs is? Except for the confrontation with Durai none of these things have to do with the struggle of her survival or can be linked back to her fate. What she did (and still does) is making everyone and everything responsible for her situation without caring for the correct links. She crosses lines as she likes, and almost everything she does is only about herself, her self-pity, lust for revenge, murder, deceit. There are only very few moments in which she has shown a different side. And I would have loved to see more of it to change my mind. But even though she somehow "helped" Lizzy, and although she seems to keep to some very basic core-ideas of working together with a few other survivors, she really is just that: evil. And I don't see anything that could justify, explain, or excuse it. Some time in the past she disconnected from most values, and she sticks with her ways not accepting that there could be others who have just the same right to survive and live their own lives.

As for Kalani: Granted. I only understand, why he did what he did. And I totally agree with Kalani, when he has said that a father would do anything to save his child. That does not make anything he did right; and here, too, there is no excuse or justification for him being a rat and adding a lot to the deep jeopardy the Tower-people got into; but people should remember: basically it was Saul's crazyness that lead to the fall of the Tower, and only very few voices have criticized that. Anyway: Kalani's deeds were the deeds of desperation. And you cannot blame him alone for doing so without considering Scratch's part in it. After all she made him her tool; and if he had not complied, Hannah would have been dead even earlier, and maybe he, too. Why? Because Scratch behaves like that. Because Scratch is an evil bitch. If she does not get what she wants, she puts people into deep misery - this happened with Charly, with Durai, Angel with direct murdering, and indirectly with most other folks around.

I guess we will disagree about this forever.

That does not matter.

And yet I agree with you that living by double-standards is way too common.

And yeah, you don't need to tell me that you don't care about likes and shit; I know you don't care. You simply did not get my point, which is: don't put everyone into the same pot, when it is obvious that the opinions vary a lot more than your postings imply. It is not "all", just maybe "some" or "many", depending on what exact topic you refer to.

Best wishes!
Liam

Funny, it's only an act of desperation if you have the complete context. If you preclude knowledge of Kalani's daughter, it comes across in a very different light--even though he's still trying in desperation to save her life. Context is everything. We don't have all of the context surrounding Scratch. We have snippets, and throw-away lines about her past. Because we have the information to do so, we put Kalani, Riley, and eventually Saul's actions into context which won't vilify them. It'll make them sympathetic.

[LiamKerrington]

Funny, it's only an act of desperation if you have the complete context. If you preclude knowledge of Kalani's daughter, it comes across in a very different light--even though he's still trying in desperation to save her life. Context is everything. We don't have all of the context surrounding Scratch. We have snippets, and throw-away lines about her past. Because we have the information to do so, we put Kalani, Riley, and eventually Saul's actions into context which won't vilify them. It'll make them sympathetic.

Well, in all honesty: it makes them pathetic to a certain degree. I only understand them, because people react to certain situations very different. I really hated Saul for his wild heart for quite a while; the cold-blooded murder of Pippin performed by Kalani still freaks me out; and about Riley I am steal very concerned and hope that she does not follow that dark road.
As for Scratch: We received three basic and important background information on her: she was a victim of violence and tragedy, and she deserves all my sorrow and grief for what happened back then; she did everything to get her brother out of prison; and her main agenda is to take revenge on the one person that took his brother's life and thus took away the last "warm feelings" from Scratch. As with Kalani, Saul, and Riley: I do understand.
In both cases I am not willing to go any further. There is no reason to justify or excuse things; maybe some of these things may seve as explanations, but nothing more than that.

Besides: If you are willing to neglect Scratch's "evilness" because of her dark and shadowy past thus putting everything about her into context, why wouldn't you accept the context of Kalani's story? Isn't this kind of a double-standardization as well? That struck my mind last night ...

Best wishes!
Liam

[Osiris]

Well, in all honesty: it makes them pathetic to a certain degree. I only understand them, because people react to certain situations very different. I really hated Saul for his wild heart for quite a while; the cold-blooded murder of Pippin performed by Kalani still freaks me out; and about Riley I am steal very concerned and hope that she does not follow that dark road.
As for Scratch: We received three basic and important background information on her: she was a victim of violence and tragedy, and she deserves all my sorrow and grief for what happened back then; she did everything to get her brother out of prison; and her main agenda is to take revenge on the one person that took his brother's life and thus took away the last "warm feelings" from Scratch. As with Kalani, Saul, and Riley: I do understand.
In both cases I am not willing to go any further. There is no reason to justify or excuse things; maybe some of these things may seve as explanations, but nothing more than that.

Besides: If you are willing to neglect Scratch's "evilness" because of her dark and shadowy past thus putting everything about her into context, why wouldn't you accept the context of Kalani's story? Isn't this kind of a double-standardization as well? That struck my mind last night ...

Best wishes!
Liam

I'm not trying to excuse her actions, I'm merely drawing attention to the fact that our perspective is skewed. It's just how the story is being told. Sure, she's done some bad shit, but nobody in the story is innocent or without something shady or sinister in their past. We still don't know the extent of Angel's involvement with Scratch, and likely never will. Kalani killed a man in cold-blood. Pegs murdered a man in cold-blood. How many died during the attack on the tower on Scratch's side? Let me remind you, many of them were "slaves" and not there by choice. So then we get into an argument for guilt by association, and away we go again.

I'm actually a big fan of Kalani (loved hearing Kevin Flood's voice), and I had absolutely no trouble accepting his story. It made sense. I never felt as though the way he acted was at all wrong. I would have done the same in his position without guilt. I don't know if I would have flown the chopper into the tower, but...

My only point in all this is:

Burt and Riley are at the top of a slippery slope, and it won't take much to put them (especially Riley) in the same category as Scratch. They're both out for vengeance.