let's try and avoid this here

[reaper239]

socialism kills folks. as european governments struggle to stay above water, they take everything from their citizens. the intolerable requirements placed on businesses in europe is finally taking it's toll. the old addage "a government strong eough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take it all away" has never been shown to be truer. these people elected people to take care of them with money that no one had, and now that it's time to collect, the government is taking it all back, and the people can't handle it. the suicide rate in europe is skyrocketing as those who have found themselves out of work are being slapped with massive tax collection notifications, ever increasing fines, and the loss of benefits. this is something we need to try and fix while we still can here in the US. canada should also take notice of what's happening in europe, before it's too late.

ad then people blame the governments for doing exactly what the people empowered them to do.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/wo...pagewanted=all

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/21/151061...se-in-suicides

http://www.policymic.com/articles/72...sterity-s-toll

http://www.thejournal.ie/sharp-incre...79033-Jun2012/

[Kram]

Hmm. I'm not sure I really want to get involved in a political discussion on a forum about zombies...

I will say that I am glad to live in Canada. What I view as dangerous is political extremism -- either right or left wing. In Canada, I think we try to find a balance -- having economic freedom similar to that in the US, while also publicly funding social programs, like our universal health care system. I think most Canadians are satisfied with the current situation. If any government tries to support either business interests or social programs, at the great expense of the other, the Canadian public will not re-elect them.

[VEE]

The UK does not have a properly elected government, they didn't get a sufficient majority and formed a coalition with another party who were so desperate to get back into government that they wiped their arses on their beliefs. That having been said, the last lot weren't much use either, we vote by colour now as the policies are pretty much universaly bland. I usually vote red. We are currently governed by Blue with a little bit of yellow.

[reaper239]

as long as they've balanced their budget. the problem that has occurred in most of the european countries, and that is also happening here, is that the government is paying for social programs at the expense of its citizens, and now europe is paying the price for that.

[GeneTwo]

I agree balance the budget!!!

Take those tax brakes from the rich, big business and oil companies.

[Solanine]

as long as they've balanced their budget. the problem that has occurred in most of the european countries, and that is also happening here, is that the government is paying for social programs at the expense of its citizens, and now europe is paying the price for that.

The goverment will always pay for social programs at the expense of its citizens, who else will pay? Socialism isn't the root of the european probem, lack of fiscal responisbility and the very structure of the single currency is. Balancing the budget has to become a secondary priority to growth, austerity reduces countries GDP, reducing their ability to pay off their debts. Socialism saves lives. If you want to see how, I reccomend you watch Michael Moore's "Sicko". In the UK if I happen to get a form of cancer that is extremely expensive to cure then the cost is covered by the tax payers. Everybody pays, and the cost tothem is less than if they had a few expensive operations. They can also rest easy at night knowing their treatment is peformed by people who's interest is their health not in making money. GeneTwo is right though, if you want to balance the budget then increase tax proportionally, the rich (who can afford it) suffer the greatest increase in tax while the poor are left untouched. The problem with this is the people in power, due to the way the American (and British to a lesser extent) democratic systems work. Basically the rich are favoured over the poor. For example Obama has an estate of about $12,000,000 and Obama is in the bottom 3rd of members of the US senate. And guess what, they don't very much like the idea of increasing tax for themselves or their friends. Thats without mentioning lobbyists who greatly avert the direction of goverment policy in favour of the super rich individuals and corperations. Europe would not be in the situation if it was not for Anglo-American banks collapsing. They were slow to realise the degree to which those collapses would affect their economies. If it was not for poor regulation of anglo-american banks then they would not have collapsed, the EU would not have been affected and suicide rates in countries would have stayed lower than that of the united states. To summarise, Capitilism was fatal for the EU and killed those people, not socialism. In fact a more heavily regulated, big goverment US would have prevented this collapse.

[yarri]

The goverment will always pay for social programs at the expense of its citizens, who else will pay? Socialism isn't the root of the european probem, lack of fiscal responisbility and the very structure of the single currency is. Balancing the budget has to become a secondary priority to growth, austerity reduces countries GDP, reducing their ability to pay off their debts. Socialism saves lives. If you want to see how, I reccomend you watch Michael Moore's "Sicko". In the UK if I happen to get a form of cancer that is extremely expensive to cure then the cost is covered by the tax payers. Everybody pays, and the cost tothem is less than if they had a few expensive operations. They can also rest easy at night knowing their treatment is peformed by people who's interest is their health not in making money. GeneTwo is right though, if you want to balance the budget then increase tax proportionally, the rich (who can afford it) suffer the greatest increase in tax while the poor are left untouched. The problem with this is the people in power, due to the way the American (and British to a lesser extent) democratic systems work. Basically the rich are favoured over the poor. For example Obama has an estate of about $12,000,000 and Obama is in the bottom 3rd of members of the US senate. And guess what, they don't very much like the idea of increasing tax for themselves or their friends. Thats without mentioning lobbyists who greatly avert the direction of goverment policy in favour of the super rich individuals and corperations. Europe would not be in the situation if it was not for Anglo-American banks collapsing. They were slow to realise the degree to which those collapses would affect their economies. If it was not for poor regulation of anglo-american banks then they would not have collapsed, the EU would not have been affected and suicide rates in countries would have stayed lower than that of the united states. To summarise, Capitilism was fatal for the EU and killed those people, not socialism. In fact a more heavily regulated, big goverment US would have prevented this collapse.

Reaper you know I <3 you to bits but Sol is right. I had to have a business major explain it to me Capitolism isn't good.

[yarri]

But on that note neither is pure socialism as it promotes a class of able bodied people that refuse to work and contribute to the well being of their community and become leeches. everyone that can physically contribute should.

[GeneTwo]

If the corporations are "people" they should pay taxes like normal people and get off that corporate welfare.

[Solanine]

But on that note neither is pure socialism as it promotes a class of able bodied people that refuse to work and contribute to the well being of their community and become leeches. everyone that can physically contribute should.

There is an experiment often quoted by anti-socialist campaigners. It showed that if the individuals of the class are graded as the average of the class the average grade drops after the first test as the pupils whom previously got high grades are dis-heartened by the low grade recieved. When you substitute money in you kind of get the picture. There will always be the few leeches who find a way to beat the system but this does not mean the whole system should be scrapped. Especially when times get hard people are less willing to put up with the leeches and so legislation is tightened.