Oh Happy Days!

[Osiris]

by you're logic the tower folks were also fully justified in all their actions. in fact you can't say that anyones actions are wrong because they all fall under the rubric of "doing what one must to survive" so the reality is you have a bias against the tower people.

1. Did I say anyone's actions were wrong? No. I said they were doing what they to in order to survive or to protect what is theirs. I honestly don't believe that either side was wrong. I believe both sides were acting as they had to in order to make the best of their respective situations. So yes, by that logic the Residents were justified in their actions when defending their home. Just as the Mallers were justified in protecting what was theirs. If you stop for one minute and say 'If the Mallers tried to take what belonged to the tower and got mashed, then the tower was justified in its actions' you must also admit that the Mallers were equally within their rights to try and protect what they had claimed as theirs. Doing otherwise completely contradicts your own edict. Thanks for pointing out your fallacy. The reality is that YOU have a bias with regard to the story and that sides firmly with the Residents being the just side. I'm open to both sides of the coin. Pay attention there's a test later.

now that's fine but don't try to pass it off as saying that you are logical and i am not when your own statements violate the very tenants of your philosophy.

2. See point 1 and argue accordingly.

unfortunately you also seem to have a very twisted view of human nature as i for one and most people i know for two don't line up with your human nature. the people who do line up with that view tend to be criminals, and the exact same people who make up the mallers.

3. My view of human nature is based entirely off what I see on a daily basis in my city, province and country as well as across the globe [Mr. I Think They're Evil And Should Be Executed... prove me more right with every word you type]. Welcome to reality, human nature is to take. We are greedy by design. We are the only creature on the planet that kills for FUN. We kill for pleasure. Is it sinking in yet? Do I need to draw you a pretty picture? You don't watch the news? You never bothered to pay attention to the wars being waged across the globe? The atrocities being committed across huge sections of Africa, China, The Middle East? Christ, throw a fucking rock and you'll hit someone who has committed some sort of crime. Ever pick up a newspaper or history book? I'm afraid they would disagree with your philosophy. It is NOT shared by the majority of the planet I'm afraid. If it were there would be far, FAR less crime. This is not rocket science, this is common sense as well as common knowledge. Think of how your own view of reality is distorted through the lens of the story line. You're seeing a single perspective of a dire situation and you're trying to transpose your reality on top of that. Are you absolutely positive that every Maller is a criminal? That they are all deserving of capital punishment? You can say with absolutely certainty that each one of them should be executed? You're going to pass that judgment on people whom you have no frame of reference towards with the exception of the recollections of past events through one set of eyes?

Remember that this story is in fact being told in the past-tense. Consider that the victors are the ones who write the history books. Now, that being known (and it is fact) consider for a moment the spin YOU would put on your story. Would you tell your story from the side of an aggressive, greedy, manipulative group of warmongers? Or would you choose to paint yourself in the light of what is just and morally acceptable? The greater good.

Also, thanks for calling me a criminal, having no basis whatsoever to do so. I'll keep that in mind when you open your mouth next and perhaps I will return in kind. Backpedal. I'll wait patiently for you to do so.

[nikvoodoo]

I'm going to interject myself briefly into the current conversation. Please stay away from personal attacks, and lets not assume anything about anyone's background or thought processes. Lets keep the conversation focused on the story and not on the individuals commenting on the story.

This is an interesting debate in and of itself especially since it's touching on a perspective we aren't privy to as listeners of We're Alive. We don't get the human perspective from the Mallers Camp as often as we hear from the Tower. It's really great to see people deconstructing, and thinking analytically about the motivations of all of the characters in a really deep and meaningful way. It helps add to the story for all of us. But there's no need to train the barrel on each other. Let's keep in constructive.

I'm not saying don't get invested or emotional about the debate. You can get heated about the conversation certainly and that's bound to happen. But keep the comments on point please.

This is not aimed at any one individual responding in this thread. I'm just saying in general lets keep cool heads when debating with opposing view points and remember we're all here to have fun.

Continue!

[reaper239]

1. Did I say anyone's actions were wrong? No. I said they were doing what they to in order to survive or to protect what is theirs. I honestly don't believe that either side was wrong. I believe both sides were acting as they had to in order to make the best of their respective situations. So yes, by that logic the Residents were justified in their actions when defending their home. Just as the Mallers were justified in protecting what was theirs. If you stop for one minute and say 'If the Mallers tried to take what belonged to the tower and got mashed, then the tower was justified in its actions' you must also admit that the Mallers were equally within their rights to try and protect what they had claimed as theirs. Doing otherwise completely contradicts your own edict. Thanks for pointing out your fallacy. The reality is that YOU have a bias with regard to the story and that sides firmly with the Residents being the just side. I'm open to both sides of the coin. Pay attention there's a test later.



2. See point 1 and argue accordingly.



3. My view of human nature is based entirely off what I see on a daily basis in my city, province and country as well as across the globe [Mr. I Think They're Evil And Should Be Executed... prove me more right with every word you type]. Welcome to reality, human nature is to take. We are greedy by design. We are the only creature on the planet that kills for FUN. We kill for pleasure. Is it sinking in yet? Do I need to draw you a pretty picture? You don't watch the news? You never bothered to pay attention to the wars being waged across the globe? The atrocities being committed across huge sections of Africa, China, The Middle East? Christ, throw a fucking rock and you'll hit someone who has committed some sort of crime. Ever pick up a newspaper or history book? I'm afraid they would disagree with your philosophy. It is NOT shared by the majority of the planet I'm afraid. If it were there would be far, FAR less crime. This is not rocket science, this is common sense as well as common knowledge. Think of how your own view of reality is distorted through the lens of the story line. You're seeing a single perspective of a dire situation and you're trying to transpose your reality on top of that. Are you absolutely positive that every Maller is a criminal? That they are all deserving of capital punishment? You can say with absolutely certainty that each one of them should be executed? You're going to pass that judgment on people whom you have no frame of reference towards with the exception of the recollections of past events through one set of eyes?

Remember that this story is in fact being told in the past-tense. Consider that the victors are the ones who write the history books. Now, that being known (and it is fact) consider for a moment the spin YOU would put on your story. Would you tell your story from the side of an aggressive, greedy, manipulative group of warmongers? Or would you choose to paint yourself in the light of what is just and morally acceptable? The greater good.

Also, thanks for calling me a criminal, having no basis whatsoever to do so. I'll keep that in mind when you open your mouth next and perhaps I will return in kind. Backpedal. I'll wait patiently for you to do so.

you've been saying the tower people were wrong the entire time. now you are right that the mallers would be justified in protecting what was theirs, so latch and scratch tracking them down to talk is perfectly reasonable, except that when lizzy tried to approach in a non hostile manner to begin dialogue, that action was met with aggression. after they managed to disarm the situation the tower people tried to reason out a deal, to poor results. the first thing the mallers did upon encountering the tower people was act with aggression, and if i was saul, i would have neutralized the potential threat.

regarding me "proving your point" my objective in that situation would be to protect those in my charge and myself. to that end, acts of aggression would be met with overwhelming force to ensure that my charges are safe. the mallers act with aggression, that aggression would be met with force, do you see the causality here?

if you notice throughout history, where there is evil, there is good fighting against it. good tends to prevail throughout history. that's why we don't all speak german, or french. and have you ever noticed how atrocities tend to be committed by a small group of people with power against a larger group of people without power? remember the golden rule? it came from somewhere.

i never called you a criminal, i said tend to be criminals. i know law abiding citizens who hold the same philosophy as you do, and they are people i choose not to spend my free time with.

[PirateBeew]

owned much!

in any case i too am very happy the tower is gone i would of liked some loose ends tied up but maybe they will be tied up in there new habitat? I just wonder how the rest of the main group will get there...

And the mallers are annoying and deserve to die! although they are badass characters especially scratch.

I wonder if they will stay within the story seen as they have flown to a different region?

[Osiris]

owned much!

in any case i too am very happy the tower is gone i would of liked some loose ends tied up but maybe they will be tied up in there new habitat? I just wonder how the rest of the main group will get there...

And the mallers are annoying and deserve to die! although they are badass characters especially scratch.

I wonder if they will stay within the story seen as they have flown to a different region?

Owned? Yeah, I have no idea why he continually tries to bury himself.

[Osiris]

you've been saying the tower people were wrong the entire time. now you are right that the mallers would be justified in protecting what was theirs, so latch and scratch tracking them down to talk is perfectly reasonable, except that when lizzy tried to approach in a non hostile manner to begin dialogue, that action was met with aggression. after they managed to disarm the situation the tower people tried to reason out a deal, to poor results. the first thing the mallers did upon encountering the tower people was act with aggression, and if i was saul, i would have neutralized the potential threat.

regarding me "proving your point" my objective in that situation would be to protect those in my charge and myself. to that end, acts of aggression would be met with overwhelming force to ensure that my charges are safe. the mallers act with aggression, that aggression would be met with force, do you see the causality here?

if you notice throughout history, where there is evil, there is good fighting against it. good tends to prevail throughout history. that's why we don't all speak german, or french. and have you ever noticed how atrocities tend to be committed by a small group of people with power against a larger group of people without power? remember the golden rule? it came from somewhere.

i never called you a criminal, i said tend to be criminals. i know law abiding citizens who hold the same philosophy as you do, and they are people i choose not to spend my free time with.

I'm going to suggest something to you right now and let's hope that I can explain it slowly enough for you. The story is being told from one perspective. That perspective is will, quite naturally, list to one side. Whichever side the story is being told from is going to be the side 'in the right'. Whatever force that side opposes is going to be portrayed as 'in the wrong'. You with me so far? Ok, let's take another step:

The Mallers act with aggression, that aggression would be met with force, do you see the causality here?

I'm going to post a question to you know and let's see if you can grasp where I'm going with it. If I come to your city - post-apocalypse - and unknowingly steal something that belongs to you, something that to you has a great value/need/function will you do what is necessary to protect it? I'm going to quote you now so that I don't lose you.

to that end, acts of aggression would be met with overwhelming force to ensure that my charges are safe.

By your own admission you are now in the right to use whatever force you deem necessary to protect what you have or who you are with. These are your words now, not mine. I urge you to think carefully as to what that statement implies. I have and see more holes in your logic than a block of Swiss. Your own reasoning places the Mallers clearly 'in the right'. Tell me it doesn't and you're going to need a shovel to dig yourself out of the hole you put yourself in. Are you following me still?

Having read back through the thread in its entirety to find the offending post which spawned:

you've been saying the tower people were wrong the entire time.

To my shock and surprise, I could find no such comment made. I said nothing to the effect that 'the tower people were wrong the entire time'. I said Pegs was in the wrong. As for 'the causality' which brought the situation to a head, that still lies firmly at the feet of Saul, Lizzy and Burt. Were it not for the confrontation between the five [ counting Scratch and Latch] there would be little reason to believe that the Mallers would even know that The Tower existed in the first place, thereby leaving the Residents to go about their business of trying to maintain a somewhat functional lifestyle amidst chaos and death. True? Yes. Dispute? Feel free, you're only going to run in circles. Without the singular acts of a) theft b) defiance and finally c) taking a shot at random from an undetermined balcony on behalf of the Tower and its Residents, there is a definite possibility for, at the very least, an acerbic cohabitation. The old addage 'The enemy of my enemy' is most assuredly applicable in this situation and had the Residents at least been open to negotiations from the beginning - as opposed to the 'watch how far away I can get ya with my gun' attitude, from he who shall remain nameless - the season may well have ended quite differently. As for the hostility that Lizzy was met with during the first encounter… well… take a peek at the end of the post here and see if you can find a way to reason yourself out of the hole you’ve dropped yourself in. Had I been in Scratch’s position and you in Lizzy’s, I wouldn’t have bothered warning you. I would have shot the three of you. Your philosophy would agree with me. See the end of the post for proof of that.

Now I would like to draw your attention to something that has puzzled me from the very beginning about your so called 'righteous stance'.

that may make sense to the criminally insane, but i think someone should put her on her knees, make her beg for her life, and then put two in the back of her head. execution. and i'd do it to anyone running wild like that, two to the head, make sure they don't come back.

so yes scratch did wrong and she should be dealt with like the dog she is.

personally i think all the mallers should be executed. they're criminals who acted agressively towards the tower.

i just wish pegs had more bullets and finnished scratch when she had the chance

unfortunately you also seem to have a very twisted view of human nature as i for one and most people i know for two don't line up with your human nature. the people who do line up with that view tend to be criminals, and the exact same people who make up the mallers.

what seperates man from beast is humanity

Two of these quotes are not like the others. Can you guess which?

Let me provide you with a final thought – this ought to blow your hair right back – and be done with this mess you’ve worked so hard on. Everything you have said has contradicted your final words to me.

i never called you a criminal, i said tend to be criminals. i know law abiding citizens who hold the same philosophy as you do, and they are people i choose not to spend my free time with.

Did you call me a criminal in so many words? No. Perhaps you did not directly accuse me of criminal behaviour. However, you certainly aligned me with them based on your personal philosophy ‘punish the wicked’ which is in direct contradiction to my own philosophy – which you seem to have a firm grasp of, without ever having asked me what it was. Good to know that if I don’t agree with you, I am clearly wrong. Ask questions before you make assumptions. It makes you look like an ass. I’m sorry you feel as though people that hold some of my beliefs are not ones you would choose to spend your free time with. You’re probably missing out on a good group of people. You know… the kinds who are more willing to find a way to work together for a common goal rather than execute anyone who violated their personal tenants.

Incidentally, people who kill en masse are considered criminally insane. Were you aware of that? Think of that the next time you start condoning mass murder of ANY living human being. Your argument has been read, critiqued and found wanting of civility and a working knowledge of what is morally just. These are facts that are not available for dispute as they are your words, not my own.