Is this really happening (Spoiler)

[cameron1223]

Fascinating way to look at it magrat and even though that makes plenty of sense i think the story would have more of an emotional impact if burt or angel died. After all emotion in these kind of things is extremely important.

[Magrat]

Fascinating way to look at it magrat and even though that makes plenty of sense i think the story would have more of an emotional impact if burt or angel died. After all emotion in these kind of things is extremely important.

After all the effort Burt made to get them to safety, if they die, possibly in an attempt to save him, it will not only be an intense emotional moment, but will cripple his character's spirit. But yes, from an emotional standpoint we are better suited to having burt or angel go.

[SoMoney]

Burt doesn't really have any real connection to these characters though. Angel would have left Burt for dead at L&L if it wasnt for Saul. Lizzy and Saul are the only characters which Burt shared his Wifes story with. The best death for Burt would be in some move against the maulers which saves Lizzy(pregnant) and/or Saul. A tearful farewell from one generation to the next and next to come. Hell I predict Lizzy will name the baby Burt if its a boy or Roberta if its a girl!

[GD_Elite]

I do kind of feel like Burt needs to see Saul and/or Lizzie again to complete his story. If he's going to go out I think it will be saving their asses. The old guy goes out saving the young lovers, has a kind poetic ring to it.

Burt doesn't really have any real connection to these characters though. Angel would have left Burt for dead at L&L if it wasnt for Saul. Lizzy and Saul are the only characters which Burt shared his Wifes story with. The best death for Burt would be in some move against the maulers which saves Lizzy(pregnant) and/or Saul. A tearful farewell from one generation to the next and next to come. Hell I predict Lizzy will name the baby Burt if its a boy or Roberta if its a girl!

I agree with these points. Burt/Saul/Lizzy's characters are so closely intertwined. They all bonded together on the initial fuel truck trip and as you said Burt told them about his wife. Burt recently bonded with Saul at LAX, and they got closer there. Also, Burt is responsible for Saul getting shot, and Lizzy getting kicked out of the tower and Burt feels very responsible for both these incidents. By now pretty much everyone knows that Burt should die an epic death by sacrificing himself to save others, and I believe that the perfect moment is him sacrificing himself to save/reunite these two.

This is exactly why I think that Burt will make it past this moment.

Angel on the other hand hasn't got as much going for him. While Burt telling the story by no means guarantees his survival, I think it sets up a great oppurtunity for him to narrate while the zombies do their business with Angel. After 23-1 everyone was waiting to find out what the zombies were planning, and I think this is a great way to show it. It is also important to note that Angel referred to previous episodes 3 times in the last episode. This seems to me like he had been doing his final goodbyes and shoeing his best bits before the end.

Also SoMoney, how about Shirley if its a girl?

[nikvoodoo]

Am I still the only one who thinks it is potentially far more interesting if Lizzy/Saul die, leaving the shattered and falling apart old man (who believes he's responsible for all of it happening) to try to pick up the pieces again and find a purpose? Especially with his apparent attraction to Tanya... isn't that an interesting storyline to tell?

[Osiris]

Am I still the only one who thinks it is potentially far more interesting if Lizzy/Saul die, leaving the shattered and falling apart old man (who believes he's responsible for all of it happening) to try to pick up the pieces again and find a purpose? Especially with his apparent attraction to Tanya... isn't that an interesting storyline to tell?

I would be ok with that. Though I'd rather see an end to Saul. He's clearly spinning off the deep end and becoming both a burden and a hazzard to the rest of the suvivors. It would be a nice arc for Lizzy to survive. Once more... she's on the losing end of life - first Todd and then Saul, stuck with Mallers and surrounded by evil. I could see fantastic things happening with that character. I'm feeling that Angel, Lizzy and Michael have interesting potential arcs.

[GD_Elite]

Am I still the only one who thinks it is potentially far more interesting if Lizzy/Saul die, leaving the shattered and falling apart old man (who believes he's responsible for all of it happening) to try to pick up the pieces again and find a purpose? Especially with his apparent attraction to Tanya... isn't that an interesting storyline to tell?

Personally, I wouldn't find that as interesting. Saul and Lizzy are the young couple. Theres still some mystery about their relationship and whats going on (pregnant or not?). Burt on the other hand has served his real purpose to the story I feel. There isn't really any mystery about him at all as he has been pretty open. Your point about us getting to see him as a shattered and falling apart old man would not be anything new, as he has been doing that pretty much the entire series so far (blames himself for tommy/saul/lizzy, can't shoot straight anymore). It may sound harsh, but in my opinion the only way Burt's character can progress is in a heroic death.

Also, I didn't notice any real attraction to Tanya. I'll give it another listen though.

EDIT: I don't think you can really justify that there a relationship between the two of them is hinted. He says he likes her, but that is obviously just a reference to the joke she made about Angel.

[nikvoodoo]

Personally, I wouldn't find that as interesting. Saul and Lizzy are the young couple. Theres still some mystery about their relationship and whats going on (pregnant or not?). Burt on the other hand has served his real purpose to the story I feel. There isn't really any mystery about him at all as he has been pretty open. Your point about us getting to see him as a shattered and falling apart old man would not be anything new, as he has been doing that pretty much the entire series so far (blames himself for tommy/saul/lizzy, can't shoot straight anymore). It may sound harsh, but in my opinion the only way Burt's character can progress is in a heroic death.

Also, I didn't notice any real attraction to Tanya. I'll give it another listen though.

EDIT: I don't think you can really justify that there a relationship between the two of them is hinted. He says he likes her, but that is obviously just a reference to the joke she made about Angel.

Burt has not been this way the entire series. In fact, he's barely been that way this season. Right up until Lizzy was kicked out, he was confident in himself and his abilities, even when leading the Tower (albeit in the wrong direction and even with the death of Tommy on his conscious). He had his confidence and was still able to shoot straight to save Mary's life in the garage. It's only been in the last 3 2/3 chapters that he's lost his edge entirely.

But what you're saying is there's no way to progress his character without a heroic sacrifice? What about seeing how a cowboy gunslinger tries to cope with his situation when he can't be a cowboy gunslinger anymore (which he has not hit rock bottom of yet....there's still room to fall in my opinion)? Or what about this: Saul or Lizzy being dead and Burt having to deal with the surviving member of that relationship?

I think this story arc has more legs to it if one of the members of the young couple with some mystery in their relationship has their relationship torn asunder and is left with a target for their anger. Especially if that dead person ends up being Saul....you know...the guy that Burt promised to keep safe when Lizzy left the Tower. That, to me, carries more weight than a heroic sacrifice because it creates conflict.

[Gunslinger]

Burt has not been this way the entire series. In fact, he's barely been that way this season. Right up until Lizzy was kicked out, he was confident in himself and his abilities, even when leading the Tower (albeit in the wrong direction and even with the death of Tommy on his conscious). He had his confidence and was still able to shoot straight to save Mary's life in the garage. It's only been in the last 3 2/3 chapters that he's lost his edge entirely.

But what you're saying is there's no way to progress his character without a heroic sacrifice? What about seeing how a cowboy gunslinger tries to cope with his situation when he can't be a cowboy gunslinger anymore (which he has not hit rock bottom of yet....there's still room to fall in my opinion)? Or what about this: Saul or Lizzy being dead and Burt having to deal with the surviving member of that relationship?

I think this story arc has more legs to it if one of the members of the young couple with some mystery in their relationship has their relationship torn asunder and is left with a target for their anger. Especially if that dead person ends up being Saul....you know...the guy that Burt promised to keep safe when Lizzy left the Tower. That, to me, carries more weight than a heroic sacrifice because it creates conflict.

I actually agree with Nik as far as things being interesting that way and that Burt has far to go before hitting bottom. The broken promise angle is also interesting and would cause some strife. Also, the heroic sacrifice bit is very done in this genre and many others. While its always a good bit, its kind of a heavily tread bit throughout a lot of literature. Its not to say it couldn't happen here, just that it would be kind of typical and expected sort of thing in a situation like this. Its the stock response, in a sense. Its stock because it works, but I think a lot of us have come to expect quite a different tact in this show.

The one thing I'm a little loathe to want is the Saul and Lizzy dying for the drama of Burt and some others. While it could be very interesting, and would be a change of pace, I'm not big on the melodrama and tortured guilt scenario. That's also a pretty stock turn of events, albeit perhaps less so than the heroic sacrifice. I'm looking forward to hearing what happens. Its so close, now. Maybe I'll go to the range after I hear it. =)

[GD_Elite]

@nikvoodoo and Gunslinger
Okay, I see your points. But when I weigh up the Saul/Lizzy death against the Burt death options I see this:

If Burt dies a heroes death, he can keep all his promises and go out with a witty one liner, leaving us with a good memory of an interesting character who stuck to his word.

On the other hand, We have one or both of Saul and Lizzy dead. This leaves us with one depressed character and one who is pissed off with him. I think this is by far the least interesting option. If Lizzy was seriously angry with Burt, I don't think this would come across well to us. We've had pissed off Lizzy shouting at Burt before.("I swear I'll never drink again" "I've heard that one before") It's already been done. I agree with nik that Burt was alright in the middle of the season when things were going dandy, but Burt has already done depressed on several other occasions.

Basically, depressed Burt bores me. A heck of a lot of people love Burt, and that is usually because of his awesome shooting and witty one liners. Without these he is dull. Sure, a good character will show emotion, but he's done that. Alot. More than Datu.

So, thats why I prefer the first option