Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower?

This is Nikvoodoo talking. Sorry this is so screwy. So here's the recap of what we were talking over in Chapter 20-1 discussion. These messages are the ones I can't merge because they contain Chapter 20 talk. So in the quote blocks in this post are things I had to move, and then I had to put them into ra1th's post here because it won't move around in the order. So....hope that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Come now crowbar, you can't really expect to hit Angel like that and NOT have me come after you. (took me long enough though, damn chatbox) First up, it’s not whining rather a passing comment since he’s been busting his ass lately and his recent contributions just went unnoticed. I think it’s also a shout out from kc, to us. We’ve been discussing who could be leader for a while now, and Angel’s name has come up frequently. If anything it’s fan service, that he IS a candidate, and you should also take into consideration that Michael asked if Angel wanted leadership. Angel was smart enough to decline saying the tower was rightfully Michael’s but, to me that’s recognition of Angel’s growth and possibly foreshadowing of the next change of leadership. Keep in mind we are only in season two of three to four seasons, in that time, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t another change of leadership. And when that time comes, my boy Angel will be waiting. But for right now, I’d say Angel’s leadership abilities would be equal to that of Burt. But the tower’s situation is dire, and Burt’s leadership level is no longer enough to keep the crazed tower residents at bay, which is where the fired up and recharged Michael comes into play. Consider Michael to be leveled up. Michael is the leader the tower needs right now.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Ra1th, Ra1th, Ra1th..

Remember the epi when Saul and Angel found Burt? Well, Saul school your boy in the hummer about why he basically won't lead. At the time it was because he expected respect because he's doing "everything every one else is."
You're aren't going to assume leadership by asking "Well what about me??"
You know why Burt took over? It wasn't because he's better than Angel. It's because he demanded it and took it by force of personality.
Compare the time that Burt's been there and the time Angel has been there. No way should Burt have been number 2, but he got it.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

I guess you’re right about that. That ability to demand leadership, and yell out an order and expect it to be followed is what Angel still lacks. He still doesn’t have the fire. But I guess baby steps, like you said, the first time Angel wondered why he wasn’t leader, it was because he lacked experience, and leadership in the field. He’s gained that part now, but now he lacks Michael and Burt’s fire, and their wanting to do it their way. Well in good time hopefully, he’ll learn this just like he learned everything else. ONE DAY CROWBAR ONE DAY! Hahaaa as for the team up theory, I’m not going so far as a maller/tower team up, I’m pretty annoyed with the Mallers on how they treated lizzy, but I still want a crazy insane all out battle between the colony, the Mallers and the tower and I want a FAT zombie hoard in there too. I don’t care who’s fighting with who really, I just wanna see the biggest fattest battle possible.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

That's the thing. Leaders don't demand leadership. They are given leadership. We saw Marcus demand leadership and it got him killed (lets just assume he is for this argument. I don't want to crack this pandora's box open in this thread). It's not that Angel doesn't have fire, Angel doesn't have the charisma to lead. Angel's intangibles fall behind Michael's in every way. People would do anything for Michael. But as for those intangible, can't quite put your finger on it reasons: nobody would seem to do the same for Angel.

Michael has charisma in spades. Burt even had it, but not as much and he burned through his pretty damn quick with the residents. But for some reason, despite Angel's charming personality and quick wit, his leadership charisma is nearly non-existent.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

That's the thing. Leaders don't demand leadership. They are given leadership. We saw Marcus demand leadership and it got him killed (lets just assume he is for this argument. I don't want to crack this pandora's box open in this thread).

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Normally, you’re one of the last people I want to debate, but when it comes to a subject like this one, I’ll go to the end of the world and back. So to start it off, Michael was not given leadership. Angel was in charge originally in episode 1. Michael took leadership by gaining Saul’s allegiance and basically undermining Angel’s orders, by breaking into the armory. Same thing with Burt, Burt was (arguably) not given leadership. Michael’s absence left a power vacuum. It didn’t end with the people of the power begging Burt to become leader. While Angel was fumbling around, trying to get people to listen to him, Burt ran in headfirst, barked out orders, and took charge.
It’s the same scenario with our country even. Leadership is not just given to our president. For six months, candidates duke it out in the elections fighting tooth and nail for command and leadership of this country. We, the people don’t just bestow leadership, they fight to show the voters that they are the best candidate for the job.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

It's not that Angel doesn't have fire, Angel doesn't have the charisma to lead. Angel's intangibles fall behind Michael's in every way. People would do anything for Michael. But as for those intangible, can't quite put your finger on it reasons: nobody would seem to do the same for Angel.

Michael has charisma in spades. Burt even had it, but not as much and he burned through his pretty damn quick with the residents. But for some reason, despite Angel's charming personality and quick wit, his leadership charisma is nearly non-existent.

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This one made me think. I literally spent about an hour just seething over this looking for a way to poke a hole in this, to somehow find a counterpoint. And I couldn’t find one. Until I started thinking about the reason people did things for Burt and Michael that they didn’t for Angel. Confidence. Angel lacks confidence in himself. Because here’s the thing, people WILL do things for Angel, and there are very specific examples of this, ALL of which are in the field. Angel’s team mates will follow his orders in the field. Here are the examples:

When Riley and Datu were about to turn back and head home in defeat after Michael’s supposed death at the pumping station, Angel showed some pretty damn good textbook style charisma, and the others fell in line and followed his lead.
The second example of this is with Kalani on the mission for MREs. He showed some damn good leadership and charisma here as well. Of course here’s where people might say, oh Kalani was rebelling and rebutting the whole time, and if Michael was in charge, this would never have happened. But I’d like to direct your eyes to the episode where Michael and co. rescued DARK (Datu, angel, riley, Kalani). Kalani was half dead and was still giving Michael shit the ENTIRE car ride back WHILE being chased by zombies. (This should just tell you a lot about Kalani’s personality.) And let me tell you, Michael wasn’t handling kalani any better than Angel was. Now back to the original point, Kalani was kicking, screaming and bitching the whole way, but Angel still maintained command. You can see this in when Kalani at multiple points want to leave the supplies and go home. Angel stays true to the mission, and DRAGS Kalani with him and FORCES Kalani into helping him complete the mission. If that isn’t charisma, then nothing is.

So basically the whole point of that tirade was to establish this, Angel shows charisma in the field. Why? Because Angel is confident in the field, he’s confident in his abilities, he’s confident in his experiences, and he knows exactly what the hell he’s doing. Because Angel displays this confidence in the field, people will follow his leadership. Angel lacks confidence to lead the tower as a whole, and confidence, is why people will do things for Michael that they won’t do for Angel.

So at the end of the day, I suppose I can’t really prove you wrong, (as much as I really want to) Every character in this series goes through development, but I’d like to argue that Angel goes through, and I’m predicting that he will continue to go through more development than the others. And one of the biggest themes surrounding Angel’s growth, is leadership. Angel was trained to be a leader, and he was not up to the task in so many ways. With this character, his development revolves around him gaining the experience and finding the confidence to finally fill that leadership role that he was originally meant to fill but failed.

Here’s something I think might be very possible, If you were to throw Burt, Angel and Michael into the field, Angel would be clashing with the others over the best course of action, because Angel is confident in the field, he knows what he’s doing, he knows what he’s up against. And with that confidence, will come the “fire� to want to take leadership, and the charisma that will have others follow his orders.

So at the end of the day, add confidence to the list of shit angel has to achieve before he’s ready for leadership

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Normally, you’re one of the last people I want to debate, but when it comes to a subject like this one, I’ll go to the end of the world and back. So to start it off, Michael was not given leadership. Angel was in charge originally in episode 1. Michael took leadership by gaining Saul’s allegiance and basically undermining Angel’s orders, by breaking into the armory. Same thing with Burt, Burt was (arguably) not given leadership. Michael’s absence left a power vacuum. It didn’t end with the people of the power begging Burt to become leader. While Angel was fumbling around, trying to get people to listen to him, Burt ran in headfirst, barked out orders, and took charge.

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I would disagree with Michael not being given leadership. In the beginning Angel was indeed in charge...for like 3 minutes. But once Saul threw his hat into Michael's corner, it was downhill from there. Sure, Michael tried to keep the structure, but it soon became apparent (even to Angel) that Michael was the true leader of the Tower. Even Angel gave Michael the role of leader.

When I say "give" I don't mean there's a conscious conversation of "Hey, you want to be leader?" What I mean by that is the way people act and who the instill their confidence in. The entire Tower trusts Michael, and while certainly a good portion (if not all of them) trust Angel as well, they don't trust him in the same way. Angel hasn't done much to prove he can lead and you did a lot in your post proving it as well. His entire storyline has been plagued by one line that he seems to repeat over and over again: Maybe they/it will just go away. That hasn't done anything to instill confidence in those who would follow him. Even when Michael stepped down, the fist thing Angel says when Kalani asks if that makes Angel in charge he said "Uh, sort of." That's not the charisma or confidence you want in a leader.

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It’s the same scenario with our country even. Leadership is not just given to our president. For six months, candidates duke it out in the elections fighting tooth and nail for command and leadership of this country. We, the people don’t just bestow leadership, they fight to show the voters that they are the best candidate for the job.

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It's hard to debate this because the structure of a democratic election is so much different than that of a....well for all intents and purposes a dictatorship. There's no election process for the leadership in the Tower. The cream rises to the top, and the people follow that leader.

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This one made me think. I literally spent about an hour just seething over this looking for a way to poke a hole in this, to somehow find a counterpoint. And I couldn’t find one. Until I started thinking about the reason people did things for Burt and Michael that they didn’t for Angel. Confidence. Angel lacks confidence in himself.

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Agreed. Angel has very little confidence in himself...right now. It's comin' though.

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Because here’s the thing, people WILL do things for Angel, and there are very specific examples of this, ALL of which are in the field. Angel’s team mates will follow his orders in the field. Here are the examples:

When Riley and Datu were about to turn back and head home in defeat after Michael’s supposed death at the pumping station, Angel showed some pretty damn good textbook style charisma, and the others fell in line and followed his lead.
The second example of this is with Kalani on the mission for MREs. He showed some damn good leadership and charisma here as well. Of course here’s where people might say, oh Kalani was rebelling and rebutting the whole time, and if Michael was in charge, this would never have happened. But I’d like to direct your eyes to the episode where Michael and co. rescued DARK (Datu, angel, riley, Kalani). Kalani was half dead and was still giving Michael shit the ENTIRE car ride back WHILE being chased by zombies. (This should just tell you a lot about Kalani’s personality.) And let me tell you, Michael wasn’t handling kalani any better than Angel was. Now back to the original point, Kalani was kicking, screaming and bitching the whole way, but Angel still maintained command. You can see this in when Kalani at multiple points want to leave the supplies and go home. Angel stays true to the mission, and DRAGS Kalani with him and FORCES Kalani into helping him complete the mission. If that isn’t charisma, then nothing is.

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I'm going to say this now and get it out of the way: Angel is much better in the field than he is in an office. He has been able to get things done despite very long odds.

With Riley and Datu: yes, he forced them forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. With Kalani: Yes, he forced him forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. Angel does well when he's given a task. He will complete the mission he's given come hell or high water. That makes him an effective Number 2. He doesn't lay out the missions on his own. He follows through on the orders and missions someone gives him perfectly to a T. Even dropping off Latch's body. He was given a task by Pegs, and he followed through beautifully. He is the Bret Hart of the Tower: The Excellence of Execution.

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So basically the whole point of that tirade was to establish this, Angel shows charisma in the field. Why? Because Angel is confident in the field, he’s confident in his abilities, he’s confident in his experiences, and he knows exactly what the hell he’s doing. Because Angel displays this confidence in the field, people will follow his leadership. Angel lacks confidence to lead the tower as a whole, and confidence, is why people will do things for Michael that they won’t do for Angel.

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I'm not going to argue the semantics of pulling Kalani by his teeth to do something vs. inspiring Kalani to follow his lead. Ultimately, the job got done. But I would argue that there's no way in hell you can say Kalani ever followed Angel's lead except when they were being chased by the Behemoth, but that's survival not devotion to a leader.

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So at the end of the day, I suppose I can’t really prove you wrong, (as much as I really want to) Every character in this series goes through development, but I’d like to argue that Angel goes through, and I’m predicting that he will continue to go through more development than the others. And one of the biggest themes surrounding Angel’s growth, is leadership. Angel was trained to be a leader, and he was not up to the task in so many ways. With this character, his development revolves around him gaining the experience and finding the confidence to finally fill that leadership role that he was originally meant to fill but failed.

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And at the end of my day, I can't necessarily prove that Angel isn't a good leader either, mainly because he hasn't had a real chance to lead yet except at the very beginning when it wasn't clear what was going on. I agree with you that Angel lacks confidence in himself when creating plans or taking the helm. Angel is still growing up as a person and eventually he'll get to the point where Michael was in the beginning and be able to mesh the field experience he's gained with the book knowledge he has and become a good leader.

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Here’s something I think might be very possible, If you were to throw Burt, Angel and Michael into the field, Angel would be clashing with the others over the best course of action, because Angel is confident in the field, he knows what he’s doing, he knows what he’s up against. And with that confidence, will come the “fire” to want to take leadership, and the charisma that will have others follow his orders.

So at the end of the day, add confidence to the list of shit angel has to achieve before he’s ready for leadership

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I'm gonna tweak your in the field scenario this way. Angel cannot compare to the personality types of Michael and Burt. Odds are, those two would be at each other's throat the entire time they would be on this supposed mission. Angel wouldn't really be able to get a word in edge wise while those two are fighting. He'd have to wait for them to tucker each other out before he could even make a suggestion...or he could shoot one of them to get the other's attention. It's not easy trying to take control of a situation when you're dealing with two alpha dogs. However, if this scenario does happen to crop up, and Angel is able to get a word in edge wise, he's well on his way to being a standalone leader of the Tower.

Confidence added to the Angel's Leadership List.

Don't be afraid to debate me, Ra1th. You hold your own perfectly fine! And you know I think Angel is a good guy and that he's growing. We ultimately agree, I just run around the forums playing devil's advocate to like....everything.

Nik, Ra1th,

time to wade in again. Nik, you said Angel hasn't been given the chance to lead. Flip that. He has, he just couldn't seize the moment. The story started out with him throwing his rank around, but once ish hit the fan, he got ran over by Mike and Saul.
In the Military, a Lt trying to throw his/her weight around in the field will probably end up in deep doo doo.
Anyway, Charisma actually isn't something Angel has. He has a personality that is growing but no one is going to NATURALLY fall in line behind him.

One of the basic tenants of Leadership is: Have a strong hand, be decisive. Another is Set Goals, have a vision and get people to buy into that vision.
In this case- Mike said "We're going to find a place to stay and we're going to pick up survivors along the way."
They did that and as more people arrived he set the tone and the rules. He then delegated authority to the different heads and got them to buy into the survival tactics.
Here's another example: Tommy and the Cameras. Mike shut down Kelly and he inspired "Innovation" by Tommy (Encouraging Innovation is another characteristic of leadership by the way).

It took Marcus to teach Mike the most important quality in war: People will die because of what you say or do. Live with it. That's a Winstin Churchill view on giving orders.
Not everyone is meant to be a leader. Every leader needs his/her inner circle. Lincoln says "Every leader must find his GRANT"
Angel will probably always be a GRANT.. probably. Maybe he's a good Manager type.

I think Angel's place is best as the mediator. I don't think he'd have to wait for Burt or Mike to "Tucker out" before he could get a word in. He has a strong enough personality not to get punked like that. He'd insert himself and get them to work together or come up with the plan himself (even leaders turn into followers at times) and have them tweek it.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

I think Angel's place is best as the mediator. I don't think he'd have to wait for Burt or Mike to "Tucker out" before he could get a word in. He has a strong enough personality not to get punked like that. He'd insert himself and get them to work together or come up with the plan himself (even leaders turn into followers at times) and have them tweek it.

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I will not even attempt to get into an argument with you about Military service and how people act that are serving. I don't even remotely come close to having that experience. But overall I agree with you. What I was saying about having the chance to lead is Angel had an opportunity in the beginning, squandered it and then never got the chance to lead again because of his lack of confidence/charisma. I should have been clearer. He has had opportunities, like you mentioned, to take control but has not been able to do so.

And as I was saying Angel makes a perfect second in command to Michael. They compliment each other really well. I love that quote from Lincoln, it sums up the command structure of the Tower perfectly. Michael is Lincoln, Angel is Grant. As for the tucker each other out, I meant that as Angel trying to be the leader. If he was trying to take command over Michael or Burt, I don't think he'd be able to get a word in edge wise. If he was acting as a mediator, as you put it, or in some advisory role I think anyone in charge would be more than happy to listen to his suggestions.

I want to say that Michael at least believes that Angel if should he die and something had happen to Burt, he would rise to the occasion to be a great leader or someone that would take care of the tower. While I can't say that Angel has what it takes to take the reins of leading the tower while Michael and Burt are there, I will say Angel would be as good as Michael or Burt in that he has much good sense as them. If anything, Michael is probably someone more deserving of a higher rank than what he has in the military but just didn't bother in training to become a officer (same with Saul the way that Michael said if he had kept his mouth shut, he would be a higher rank than him). Now what I'm saying is that Micheal had he applied himself to become a career officer had the potential to be of a higher rank than Angel. Especially had he not spent three tours in Iraq.

So the way I see it, Angel has all what it takes to lead the tower and be good at it but just maybe Michael is as good (if not better) that it both wouldn't matter to Angel to try to be leader as he has enough to deal with and because Michael presence is enough to leave it as it is.

Yoyo, you are my new best friend

and crowbar, nik, MY RESPONSE IS COMING
i've just been superbusy today

Aite I gotta break this down, cause it’s too long to respond to three different essay responses. So I’ll start with this.

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“ Angel hasn't done much to prove he can lead and you did a lot in your post proving it as well. His entire storyline has been plagued by one line that he seems to repeat over and over again: Maybe they/it will just go away. That hasn't done anything to instill confidence in those who would follow him. Even when Michael stepped down, the fist thing Angel says when Kalani asks if that makes Angel in charge he said "Uh, sort of." That's not the charisma or confidence you want in a leader. “

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Well first up, Angel no longer says, “maybe they will go away “ anymore. We saw this when he fought the behemoth. Give him credit he’s not the nancy boy he was when he started out.

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"I'm going to say this now and get it out of the way: Angel is much better in the field than he is in an office. He has been able to get things done despite very long odds.

With Riley and Datu: yes, he forced them forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. With Kalani: Yes, he forced him forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. Angel does well when he's given a task. He will complete the mission he's given come hell or high water. That makes him an effective Number 2. He doesn't lay out the missions on his own. He follows through on the orders and missions someone gives him perfectly to a T. Even dropping off Latch's body. He was given a task by Pegs, and he followed through beautifully. He is the Bret Hart of the Tower: The Excellence of Execution. “

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This is a good skill, but this doesn’t detract from his ability to lead at all. You have to start somewhere, for angel it starts in the field. No one is born a leader, that is a skill that has to be earned. For some it comes easier than others, but others have to work at it before they achieve that charisma. Angel is of the latter, and right now, he is earning that charisma on the field.

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“I'm not going to argue the semantics of pulling Kalani by his teeth to do something vs. inspiring Kalani to follow his lead. Ultimately, the job got done. But I would argue that there's no way in hell you can say Kalani ever followed Angel's lead except when they were being chased by the Behemoth, but that's survival not devotion to a leader. “

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And here we’ll clash. You should go back and listen to the last scene between Kalani and Angel in the truck on their way home. Maybe Angel didn’t turn Kalani into his indoctrinated soldier who’ll follow him to the end of the world and back but instead he turned Kalani into an ally and a friend. Maybe it’s not “leadership� but Kalani would do a hell of a lot more for Angel than he would ever do for Burt or Michael. Angel has a different style of converting his followers. He converts them into friends not subjects to be judged and ruled over. Of course this wouldn’t work with a large group of people, but that style would work even better than Michael’s or Burt’s style for a group like the tower.

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“Don't be afraid to debate me, Ra1th. You hold your own perfectly fine! And you know I think Angel is a good guy and that he's growing. We ultimately agree, I just run around the forums playing devil's advocate to like....everything.�

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Not so much fear of debating you, it’s just a pain in the ass to have to type out these 10 of these 3 page essays to win, or to bring it to a standstill.


holdup the other responses are coming

Angel for the moment doesn't appear to have the all out confidence needed to be leader and can be a bit hot headed without reasoning or looking at things from more than one side in a heated situation. Granted he's not like that all the time and there are several times where he has a great idea. I think that group will not take him as a serious lead because of that. If Michael was to leave again, I don't think Burt will step back up but I can see Saul and Angel co-lead.

At least in this point of the story I just don't think Angel has what it takes to do it himself. It would be great character dev to see him gain the skills and respect needed to be in a leader position.

(edit side note, this was prior to the post above)

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Originally Posted by MrScott101

Angel for the moment doesn't appear to have the all out confidence needed to be leader and can be a bit hot headed without reasoning or looking at things from more than one side in a heated situation. Granted he's not like that all the time and there are several times where he has a great idea. I think that group will not take him as a serious lead because of that. If Michael was to leave again, I don't think Burt will step back up but I can see Saul and Angel co-lead.

At least in this point of the story I just don't think Angel has what it takes to do it himself. It would be great character dev to see him gain the skills and respect needed to be in a leader position.

(edit side note, this was prior to the post above)

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I'll give you some points, like that he doesnt quite have the confidence to lead the tower just yet.

here's where character development comes in, When angel first started out he couldnt do shit. He was useless in the field, and no one followed him period. Over season 1 and 2 he's grown into probably the best field commander in the tower, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he's even better than Michael at this, and to back it up, I'll quote nikvoodoo.

"He follows through on the orders and missions someone gives him perfectly to a T. Even dropping off Latch's body. He was given a task by Pegs, and he followed through beautifully. He is the Bret Hart of the Tower: The Excellence of Execution. “
It’s also worth considering that Angel goes on more missions than anyone else in the tower. Saul’s been dying half the series. Michael, for the first half of the series, was leader, and couldn’t leave the tower, and for the second half of the series had his arm broken, which left their workloads to my boy here.
So nowadays Angel is your go to guy for field ops. Considering where Angel was at the beginning of the show regarding field experience, and where he is now, there is a world of difference. Angel is a character that literally represents growth and potential. (I’m gonna make a supernerdy reference here. Angel is like a Magicarp, when he starts out he’s ridiculously weak, and he cant do much, but as he grows, he’ll evolve into a gyarados and turn into one of the best damn pokemon out there. )

As for saul and angel co leading. No. way. In. fucking. hell. That’s a disgrace! I’d rather just have Angel die than have him be so shitty a leader that he cant do it on his own. (and that’s saying something ) Saul was never a leader, saul was always a follower. Saul’s not the sharpest tool in the shack either.

If angel isn’t capable to lead on his own, then he doesn’t deserve it. If that was the case, I’d be the angriest of the fans if that happened, because that’s literally saying Angel never reached his potential. He has an almost unlimited room to grow. That’s Angel’s strength. He can work and improve and better himself.

At this point in time, It is impossible to argue that Angel is capable enough to lead. I know it’s impossible because I spent a good bit of time trying to make an argument for that and failed miserably. So I stick to hope for the future. Angel’s future lies in

Every character has a story. Pegs’ is how she overcomes her fears, and her weaknesses, and becomes a strong and capable character.
Tommy wanted to be useful. And before he died, he was out there in the battlefield setting up cameras and keeping guard so that the tower stood a chance in fighting the Mallers.

Burt’s storyline is in protecting others, and keeping watch over his friends. His wife died, and he couldn’t do anything to stop it. He was then all alone. The tower gave him a second chance. He now has friends and people he cares about deeply. And his biggest goal is to keep them all safe no matter what. That’s why he ended up in a leadership role after the war. He wanted to keep his friends safe. That’s why tommy’s death hit him so hard. He failed to keep tommy safe. That is Burt’s storyline

And this continues on for every character, there is a theme surrounding them. For angel it’s leadership, he failed to lead in the beginning of the story. His development is in becoming a leader among the people, and finally being able to step into the shoes that he originally failed to fill.

Ra1th,

The only thing I'd counterpoint to this is that Saul has the most experience in the field that both Mike and Angel. I'm talking total experience. Angel has more recent experience and intel on the infected, but Saul is a better tactician and is actually more confident. Reference the two times he's used his knife vs the Molotov Behemoth moment. Angel might as well have said "I throw like a girl!" LOL. messing with you there.
That was just a confidence piece I wanted to bring up really.

Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.

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You said something about a lt throwing their title around in the field getting in deep doo doo. I'm not military so I wouldn't know. there wouldn't be a point in being all like "nuh uh!" Because you'd know better than I.

but even without military experience, every one knows what makes a good leader because most likely we've all had at least one example in our lives.

Ahhh I gotcha. thanks for the reply. I can say in 20 years active duty, i've had 2good leaders. The rest have been managers.

Interesting discussion with some solid arguments all around.

Angel is probably my favorite character in this series, partially because of how dynamic he is as a personality. I'd have to agree with where this discussion seems to be concluding that as it stands now, Angel has more of the potential to grow into someone who could be a great leader, than pull it off right now. Michael clearly has had the persona of a leader from the get go, I think anyone who has lived has met those folks in groups of friends who seem to just fall into that role somehow like he does. Yet it sounds like when he was actually overseas, he was more content to remain at a rank where he wouldn't have to be responsible for many others, so it seems it's something he had to grow into himself, he just had longer to do it than Angel.

I do think Angel deserves a hell of a lot more respect from the tower residents, including Michael than he currently gets though. He's done arguably more for the tower than anyone, including deciding on the tower in the first place.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Ra1th,

The only thing I'd counterpoint to this is that Saul has the most experience in the field that both Mike and Angel. I'm talking total experience. Angel has more recent experience and intel on the infected, but Saul is a better tactician and is actually more confident. Reference the two times he's used his knife vs the Molotov Behemoth moment. Angel might as well have said "I throw like a girl!" LOL. messing with you there.
That was just a confidence piece I wanted to bring up really.

Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.

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even though saul has the most experience, he has a few weaknesses. One, he has terrible aim, you can see this when michael chooses Angel over saul in clearing out the hallway after they rescued lizzy. the second is that saul, even with all his experience remained a specialist. Michael said it himself, the only reason saul didn't outrank him is because saul couldnt keep his mouth shut. Allthough i will give you this he is confident in himself. But is that confidence a little misplaced? He was dead certain of himself when he made that bet with Lizzy, and he lost. But without a doubt saul's abilities in the field exceed Michael's and Angel's like setting up zip lines and close combat with the knife. but that aim is a serious blindspot. I dont know if leadership is one of the themes surrounding saul, it's never really come up with him.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Ra1th,

The only thing I'd counterpoint to this is that Saul has the most experience in the field that both Mike and Angel. I'm talking total experience. Angel has more recent experience and intel on the infected, but Saul is a better tactician and is actually more confident. Reference the two times he's used his knife vs the Molotov Behemoth moment. Angel might as well have said "I throw like a girl!" LOL. messing with you there.
That was just a confidence piece I wanted to bring up really.

Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.

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Well, one can also argue that Saul is just more gun ho about dealing with them(!) as he was willing to rush to the Humvee when they were in the hardware (or was it grocery store?) when Angel was right to pause for a moment to see for a better option. Of course, Saul then thought to activate the car alarms to distract Them! but Angel sees that discretion is the better part of valor. He is just as brave when it comes to fighting but is rather more careful when entering the situation. I still have to give up the point that Angel could just be a sucky pitcher but hey, I'm no better ha. And yes, not so good tactician as he didn't even come up with the building falling down on the behemoth plan.

Other than that, Angel rank of Liutendant more or less really does signify being second in command. Even before the outbreak, he was second in command to the commander. As much as I would argue that Angel would be a great leader, it is hard to argue against Micheal being a better leader than Angel. Angel is just more uncaring about people than he would care to admit. I mean he gave up on Bert, Saul, and that un-named woman being dragged by the zombie. Furthermore, he was going to let Liz be zombie food rather than open the door along with wanting to hold up just by themselves during the outbreak at the beginning. Maybe this is something he will grow to care more about as he patch things up with Kalani and that was a vauable experience.

On the flipside, Michael and Saul go leaps and bounds for the people (and animals) they care about. Michael literally hit a person with a shovel in a place he knew next to nothing about and Saul was willing to save his dog during a zombie attack. If anything, I think it would be a major plot point to have Angel not do the same for someone like Riley and have her die. It would showcase the difference Angel has compared to the other 2 army men but then again, this more or less happened when he left saul to die. Bert did the same thing too and he made up for it in his willingness to fight.

But in Angel defense to multiple things: Angel at the beginning was rather shooken up by the thought of zombies actually being real and he had not combat experience. He let Michael take the lead while still remaining in command which in my mind, is the sensible things to do as to let someone who knows what they're doing do what needs to be done. Once they were at the tower, Michael just happen to set the pace where Peg and Riley took to him to be the one in charge. They didn't know better that Angel was the one theorically in charge. Seeing that Peg and Riley look to michael, he deferred Michael to keep in charge of the tower and their safety while he led the scavenger mission. Which in this case, seems again the right thing to do as to keep things simple as possible.

Moving on, Angel in the wake of Michael nonappearance on the roof, probably did not feel it was right to outright say he was when Michael could be coming in any second after him despite how dismal the chance of that happening was at the time. He still at the time contested what Bert plans were and still came after him to talk sense into Bert when he was trying to leave. His only major failing is that he didn't order issues the way michael did after the zombies were gone. Even then, I felt it was only because Angel felt that Michael would come back to being his old self in leading the tower sooner rather than later. I would think he didn't want to complicate that though I admit on Angel part, a failure to shine through. Bert on the otherhand, didn't have such notions so immediately took to ordering issues and it is what lead to him to be the de facto leader. It helped Bert too that all the orders he gave out were rather sensible and had Angel had a problem with said orders, I do believe he would have seize control.

Overall, Angel has what it takes to be a great leader and I do forsee him taking leadership one day (maybe though as a leader of a second base of operations which to me would be most likely as Michael is too good and too needed not to be leader) but he is comfortable taking a backseat to someone else being in the lead. Afterall, it his job description to be second in command and leader in abscence of said leader.

P.S. I do hope i did not bore anyone with tears with what i said.

I love all three characters. Michael, Angel and Saul for vastly different reasons.

Angel, is young and very smart. He does lack experience in a military aspect but Michael in the first chapters gave him respect for the fact.. HE is trained to see the bigger picture and plan accordingly. Michael is trained to execute that plan. Angel is willingly putting himself out there into harms way and learning and trying to expand himself. I think in time he could lead.. But here is the point my tired brain is trying to make.. Michael, Saul and Angel are in my opinion.. meant to be together. They need each other. Each of them has something the others lack.. Michael sometimes needs a voice of reason. (Angel) Angel needs the experience and support that Michael brings and willingly shares with him.. They both need Saul. He keeps them from taking themselves to serious. He makes them both more human.. (and before you all poke me for being saul's fan girl I will only say.. Everyone needs a Saul. and you all know I am right!!! :) )

Back to Angel. Do I see him leading in time.. Yes.. I see him stepping up to the plate when they need him in the most critical time and being successful.

not until some thing major happens to angel as he needs to grow up as a leader wouldn't of gone back to bed when lizzy got kicked out and the same to burt as he folded to steven.

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Originally Posted by mythicgr66

not until some thing major happens to angel as he needs to grow up as a leader wouldn't of gone back to bed when lizzy got kicked out and the same to burt as he folded to steven.

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Umm, hello... did you actually listen to episode? Angel jumped through a window. That only happens in movies, and still the protagonist gets hurt. You try jumping through a window, running from, let's see, a Behemoth, almost getting squished underneath a building, and not go back to bed after being woken up from a fight, which you didn't even want to be part of.
Angel going back to bed doesn't mean that he has poor leadership qualities... it just means that he is tired, and wants to rest.

As for Bert, sure, he didn't have any more movie quotes to throw back at him, but he even admitted that he isn't used to leading civilians. He was used to leading soldiers, people who trusted him, not civilians who are mostly lost in this world without protection. Bert does have the ability to be a leader, in some ways that it.
Wait a few Chapters, and I'm sure he will help everyone with some major plan of some sort.

I feel like when Angel finally steps in, it will be when they are no longer in the tower. But I definitely do see him becoming a leader at some point. Even if it's a scenario where the tower folk split up...

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Originally Posted by Rock Daddy

I feel like when Angel finally steps in, it will be when they are no longer in the tower. But I definitely do see him becoming a leader at some point. Even if it's a scenario where the tower folk split up...

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Ya, i see that too. Angel is good at leading smaller groups of people that are doing some sort of mission. But I don't believe that he could actually take control of all the tower folk. That is Michael's job.

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Originally Posted by Dyehardjr

Umm, hello... did you actually listen to episode? Angel jumped through a window. That only happens in movies, and still the protagonist gets hurt. You try jumping through a window, running from, let's see, a Behemoth, almost getting squished underneath a building, and not go back to bed after being woken up from a fight, which you didn't even want to be part of.
Angel going back to bed doesn't mean that he has poor leadership qualities... it just means that he is tired, and wants to rest.

As for Bert, sure, he didn't have any more movie quotes to throw back at him, but he even admitted that he isn't used to leading civilians. He was used to leading soldiers, people who trusted him, not civilians who are mostly lost in this world without protection. Bert does have the ability to be a leader, in some ways that it.
Wait a few Chapters, and I'm sure he will help everyone with some major plan of some sort.

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I mean in an emotional way as angel is not brave enough to take charge, when you listen to him you dont really belive in him, jumping though a a window is nothing to leading a group of people who will blame you for any little mistake you make, Michael was a great leader until he snaped and now he's back (YES!!), Burt ok he's has lead marines (Ooh-rah) people who are trained to take orders, the way to describe Burt is as a Gunny (he has people to order but dosent make the big choices)

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Originally Posted by mythicgr66

I mean in an emotional way as angel is not brave enough to take charge, when you listen to him you dont really belive in him, jumping though a a window is nothing to leading a group of people who will blame you for any little mistake you make, Michael was a great leader until he snaped and now he's back (YES!!), Burt ok he's has lead marines (Ooh-rah) people who are trained to take orders, the way to describe Burt is as a Gunny (he has people to order but dosent make the big choices)

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excuse me?

(you win voodoo, i stayed retired for a total of one and a half days, screw that, i'm back )

he just jumped through a damn window and killed a damn behemoth, i'm sorry i dont understand how that isnt "brave enough" or "believable". How does this even affect leadership?

I dont even understand your argument, Burt was a gunny sgt so he gained leadership abilities? well then, Angel was a 2nd ltnt he was specifically TRAINED to lead, his failures came in not knowing what to do in the field, and lemme tell ya, i dont see precious michael or burt taking down behemoths

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

excuse me?

(you win voodoo, i stayed retired for a total of one and a half days, screw that, i'm back )

he just jumped through a damn window and killed a damn behemoth, i'm sorry i dont understand how that isnt "brave enough" or "believable". How does this even affect leadership?

I dont even understand your argument, Burt was a gunny sgt so he gained leadership abilities? well then, Angel was a 2nd ltnt he was specifically TRAINED to lead, his failures came in not knowing what to do in the field, and lemme tell ya, i dont see precious michael or burt taking down behemoths

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michael or burt would of killed the behemoth while it was knocked out on the floor

you're kidding me...

i dont think you understood the scene, he went through a WINDOW, he's bleeding out... he could barely walk anymore because glass shards went through his leg, hence the line " go on without me, theres no way i'll be able to run on this leg" (and then skittles saves the day)

there is no evidence backing up anything you're saying right now, this whole thread is based around evidence and context clues, please make sure that you back up your arguments with evidence otherwise there is no grounds for your statement

*sitting on the sofa snickering*
This is classic. I'm staying out of this, but enjoying it. That was a valiant effort to stay out the line of fire Ra1th. I salute you!

Hey KC, is Angel a Butter Bar?

but you only bring up that one moment, what about when burt was locked in the shop and he told saul to leave him or when lizzy arived at the tower, just because you have been trained to lead dosen't mean you can.

if angle were in charge Burt and lizzy would be dead, the mallers would of won due to the lack ammo (which burt told them about) or taken over as angel let them in the front door, listen two chapter 2, ok in time angel will be a great leader, but currently he's not he didn't step in to help lizzy, so what if he is injured, micheal stood up to help saul and he had a badly broken arm.

he's proved loyaty & sacrafice with Kalani, but he still need to prove he can command, when the mallers arived at the tower he tried to reason, even after saul told what he saw what them do, whould he of knocked out the guy who tazered Pegs, most likely no and ended up being tazed him self, if he's in my squad watching my back angel is one to count on but not to lead he's still not experienced enough and wont stand up to people he always tries to work things out.

wait this is going knowhere, lets make this simple right now in this moment in time would you have angel as your leader?

me personaly no, he is still not ready, if you asked me this in the first few chapters i would never follow Angel but in a bitmore time he could lead.

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Originally Posted by mythicgr66

ok in time angel will be a great leader, .

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Then just say that. Right now, I don't think he can lead either. I believe he himself doesn't believe he could lead the Tower. But in the future, I'm sure he could.

Much better

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Originally Posted by mythicgr66

but you only bring up that one moment, what about when burt was locked in the shop and he told saul to leave him or when lizzy arived at the tower, just because you have been trained to lead dosen't mean you can. .

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No sir, you mistake intelligence with cowardice. The right decision in both of those situations was to LEAVE THEM. Burt was a dying old man, the chances were one in a million that he turns out to be this gun toting clint eastwood badass. More than likely he would have died on them and it would have been a waste of precious supplies. It was a miracle things turned out the way it did

As with lizzy, the right decision should have been to leave her. By shooting the lock and opening the door for her, Michael risked the lives of every person in that tower.

From a leadership standpoint, Angel made the right decision both times, but he was overridden by “hail mary” logic, basically let’s make an insane decision and follow through and hope for the best, if it succeeds, we’re heroes, if it fails we’re all dead. Since this is fiction, they pull off some insane things, and avoid serious repercussions for very stupid decisions, but the decisions Angel made were not so much cowardice as they were the best possible choices. And considering it from that perspective, Michael and Burt both have yet to realize this, and this could lead to their downfall. The hail mary only has to fail once to ruin everything .

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Originally Posted by mythicgr66

if angle were in charge Burt and lizzy would be dead, the mallers would of won due to the lack ammo (which burt told them about) or taken over as angel let the min the front door, listen two chapter 2, ok in time angel will be a great leader, but currently he's not he didn't step in to help lizzy, so what if he is injured, micheal stood up to help saul and he had a badly broken arm. .

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Yes, if Angel was in charge Burt, and Lizzy would be dead. Do you know why they are alive? Because Michael used a hail mary, and things worked out, when the hail mary works, everyone is happy, and you’re a hero, but do you know what happens if a hail mary fails? You lose EVERYTHING, had lizzy been saved, but Michael not reached the door in time, EVRYONE in the tower would have died. Since this is a story it worked out, had burt turned out to be any normal old man, which all things considering what are the odds burt is the marksman that he is, and that he has a stockpile of illegal weapons. Its very low, burt would have been a bad addition to the team, he would be an old guy who’s physically feeble and cant do much to help out the team, but the hail mary worked, and he turned out to be a gun toting badass.

As for the Mallers, we do not have enough information to state, that the Mallers would have won without the weapons and ammo from burt’s armory. There are an infinite number of possibilities that could have happened had they not gotten all the ammo from burt, they would have made that a priority and they would have found it somewhere else. This is not a valid argument because it is not supported by any evidence.

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Originally Posted by mythicgr66

he's proved loyaty & sacrafice with Kalani, but he still need to prove he can command, when the mallers arived at the tower he tried to reason, even after saul told what he saw what them do, whould he of knocked out the guy who tazered Pegs, most likely no and ended up being tazed him self, if he's in my squad watching my back angle is one to count on but not to lead he's still not experienced enough and wont stand up to people he always tries to work things out. .

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Once again not a valid argument because there is no evidence backing any of this up, this is just what you hypothesize might happen in this situation, I could hypothesize differently but it doesn’t matter because there is no evidence so once again irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by mythicgr66

wait this is going knowhere, lets make this simple right now in this moment in time would you have angel as your leader?

me personaly no, he is still not ready, if you asked me this in the first few chapters i would never follow Angel but in a bitmore time Angle could lead.

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This is not the conclusion you gave me before. Two posts ago you were telling me that angel was a failure for being “not believable” and “not brave enough” to be a leader.
But that being said this is a much better conclusion to arrive at, angel is a character with unlimited growth potential, and he’s been growing at a very fast pace so far, chances are he’ll continue to grow at a fast pace. Do I want angel as the leader right now? No not right now, because right now, the situation is dire, and Michael has more experience leading the tower in such situations, Angel needs to be eased into leadership, right now, the tower is on the brink of war, don’t change horses when crossing a stream.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

*sitting on the sofa snickering*
This is classic. I'm staying out of this, but enjoying it. That was a valiant effort to stay out the line of fire Ra1th. I salute you!

Hey KC, is Angel a Butter Bar?

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ehhhh i tried man i tried, but shit somethings just never change hahaa,

new more reasonable goal: never get super worked up about it

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Originally Posted by Dyehardjr

Then just say that. Right now, I don't think he can lead either. I believe he himself doesn't believe he could lead the Tower. But in the future, I'm sure he could.

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but that is what i said (ok i admit not in those words), all i said was Angel is not ready untill something in him changes, i might of needed to have been clearer on that but Ra1th took offence to what i said, i didnt say no or never, just not currently.

hell he might prove him self in the next chapter and completely prove me worng, when they attack the mallers new base (most likelly were michael, pegs, kelly, hope, victor and Dr.??? (dam whats her name sauls mother) escaped from) cant wait to see Angel pull a Rambo lol

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Originally Posted by mythicgr66

but that is what i said (ok i admit not in those words), all i said was Angel is not ready untill something in him changes, i might of needed to have been clearer on that but Ra1th took offence to what i said, i didnt say no or never, just not currently.

hell he might prove him self in the next chapter and completely prove me worng, when they attack the mallers new base (most likelly were michael, pegs, kelly, hope, victor and Dr.??? (dam whats her name sauls mother) escaped from) cant wait to see Angel pull a Rambo lol

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yeah fun fact about me, attack angel, and i'll do everything and anything i can to bring you down

but then you get guys like nik and crowbar who enjoy debates, and they'll want more and then it turns into a giant war

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

yeah fun fact about me, attack angel, and i'll do everything and anything i can to bring you down

but then you get guys like nik and crowbar who enjoy debates, and they'll want more and then it turns into a giant war

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well i got owned lol

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

The right decision in both of those situations was to LEAVE THEM. Burt was a dying old man, the chances were one in a million that he turns out to be this gun toting clint eastwood badass. More than likely he would have died on them and it would have been a waste of precious supplies. It was a miracle things turned out the way it did.

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The right thing to do in those situations is determined by the world in which we live. Without living in a zombie apocalypse, we (as humans living safely in our quiet non-zombified world) can't say what is right or wrong. The entire purpose of a species is to thrive and survive. That instinct might become sharper and more aware once the world as we know it ends. Was Riley also wrong for shooting the zombie with an arrow outside of the Arena that was dragging that woman who died seconds later? I'd argue no she wasn't. She was trying to save a life.

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As with lizzy, the right decision should have been to leave her. By shooting the lock and opening the door for her, Michael risked the lives of every person in that tower.
From a leadership standpoint, Angel made the right decision both times, but he was overridden by “hail mary� logic, basically let’s make an insane decision and follow through and hope for the best, if it succeeds, we’re heroes, if it fails we’re all dead. Since this is fiction, they pull off some insane things, and avoid serious repercussions for very stupid decisions, but the decisions Angel made were not so much cowardice as they were the best possible choices. And considering it from that perspective, Michael and Burt both have yet to realize this, and this could lead to their downfall. The hail mary only has to fail once to ruin everything .

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Angel's decisions were book smart, not street smart. We can agree there is a difference between the two. Angel is a very book smart leader, Michael is a very street smart leader. Continuing with my logic above, Angel is prepared to lead in a world that no longer exists. Michael (though also prepared for the same world Angel is) also has enough experience to be able to riff off the knowledge he's gained to make decisions. Think of it like classical music vs. jazz music. Both Angel and Michael are wonderful trumpet players, but Angel (our classical player) sticks to the notes on the page, whereas Michael (the jazz man) takes that basic idea and improves on it because of his understanding of musicality and style.

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Yes, if Angel was in charge Burt, and Lizzy would be dead. Do you know why they are alive? Because Michael used a hail mary, and things worked out, when the hail mary works, everyone is happy, and you’re a hero, but do you know what happens if a hail mary fails? You lose EVERYTHING, had lizzy been saved, but Michael not reached the door in time, EVRYONE in the tower would have died. Since this is a story it worked out, had burt turned out to be any normal old man, which all things considering what are the odds burt is the marksman that he is, and that he has a stockpile of illegal weapons. Its very low, burt would have been a bad addition to the team, he would be an old guy who’s physically feeble and cant do much to help out the team, but the hail mary worked, and he turned out to be a gun toting badass.

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So you're saying that Angel has the right to decide who lives and who dies by virtue of their perceived value? And Michael was already standing at the door when he shot the lock off. There was no getting to the door. He was already there. You say hail mary, I say calculated risk.

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As for the Mallers, we do not have enough information to state, that the Mallers would have won without the weapons and ammo from burt’s armory. There are an infinite number of possibilities that could have happened had they not gotten all the ammo from burt, they would have made that a priority and they would have found it somewhere else. This is not a valid argument because it is not supported by any evidence.

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No, this is a valid argument. Without Burt's guns and ammo not only does the Tower fall, Angel dies two chapters earlier in the arena trying to escape. And if they get outside, they get swamped and are unable to leave because they can't fend off the zombies attacking the hummer. If you claim this is an invalid argument, so is your counter that they would have made ammunition a priority. That, too, is not supported by evidence.

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Do I want angel as the leader right now? No not right now, because right now, the situation is dire, and Michael has more experience leading the tower in such situations, Angel needs to be eased into leadership, right now, the tower is on the brink of war, don’t change horses when crossing a stream.

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I'm wondering how the gentle easing and exchange of power will occur in a zombie apocalypse? The situation is always going to be dire (supplies are running short, other groups coming to attack etc etc). In Kc's universe, we've really only seen power taken in one way: abruptly. If Angel needs to be eased into it, he will continue to be the Riker to Michael's Picard unless Michael is incapacitated in some manner, Angel is incapacitated in some manner or the series ends.

P.S.- Be gentle on the newcomers man! shovel:)

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

excuse me?

(you win voodoo, i stayed retired for a total of one and a half days, screw that, i'm back )

he just jumped through a damn window and killed a damn behemoth, i'm sorry i dont understand how that isnt "brave enough" or "believable". How does this even affect leadership?

I dont even understand your argument, Burt was a gunny sgt so he gained leadership abilities? well then, Angel was a 2nd ltnt he was specifically TRAINED to lead, his failures came in not knowing what to do in the field, and lemme tell ya, i dont see precious michael or burt taking down behemoths

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Mike may have done it first. Blam. Just because Angel went through OC school doesn't mean that he's garaunteed to become a good leader or, for that matter, a leader at all. Only time creates diamonds.

As long as Michael and Burt are around and willing to lead, no, I don't think Angel will be able to take control of the Tower. However, should Michael go on another one of his "walkabouts", I think there's a possibility that Angel might take charge. He's not a dumb guy, he's just woefully unprepared for the new world we find our heroes in. With time, he'll adapt and become a better leader

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

The right thing to do in those situations is determined by the world in which we live. Without living in a zombie apocalypse, we (as humans living safely in our quiet non-zombified world) can't say what is right or wrong. The entire purpose of a species is to thrive and survive. That instinct might become sharper and more aware once the world as we know it ends. Was Riley also wrong for shooting the zombie with an arrow outside of the Arena that was dragging that woman who died seconds later? I'd argue no she wasn't. She was trying to save a life.

Angel's decisions were book smart, not street smart. We can agree there is a difference between the two. Angel is a very book smart leader, Michael is a very street smart leader. Continuing with my logic above, Angel is prepared to lead in a world that no longer exists. Michael (though also prepared for the same world Angel is) also has enough experience to be able to riff off the knowledge he's gained to make decisions. Think of it like classical music vs. jazz music. Both Angel and Michael are wonderful trumpet players, but Angel (our classical player) sticks to the notes on the page, whereas Michael (the jazz man) takes that basic idea and improves on it because of his understanding of musicality and style.

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Michael leads and is able to improvise using experience he’s gained from the old world, combined with the post apocalyptic world experience he’s gained. He used his oldworld expertise to gain a footing in the new world, and began leading a small group of people, as time went by he gained experience and the group slowly grew larger so he was eased into this role and gained the experience he needed to lead and improvise.

So what I’m saying now is that Angel has gained the field experience that Michael once had that angel lacked, but for him to lead he doesn’t get eased into the role like Michael did. If he is to step into the role, there will be 20-30 people depending on him at all times, so he needs more to become a great leader. (this is what the last war was on, charisma, fire, etc). I’d say angel has the ability to improvise in the field, what he needs to be able to do now, basically he applied his book smarts to the real world and gained the street smarts needed to navigate the post apocalyptic world. I’m saying he needs to do the same thing with leadership. When he does, I think he’ll make for an even greater leader than Michael.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

So you're saying that Angel has the right to decide who lives and who dies by virtue of their perceived value? And Michael was already standing at the door when he shot the lock off. There was no getting to the door. He was already there. You say hail mary, I say calculated risk.

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You say calculated risk, the show says acting without thinking. If you recall after that scene, Angel pulls Michael aside and yells at him for jeopardizing the safety of the entire tower to save one person. To which Michael responded,” what was I supposed to do? “let them die?”, and angel’s response was yes. Because had Michael failed, everyone would have died. After this saul intervenes, and he says, don’t listen to angel, he’s a prick. Michael takes a moment to calm down and thinks for a second then regretfully replies.” He was right, I put the entire tower at risk by opening that door” basically he admits he acted on instinct, to save someone because that’s his training as a soldier. Then saul gives his speech on hail mary passes. This is the difference between a soldier and an officer. As a soldier Michael’s job was to do everything to keep everyone alive, officers have to make difficult decisions on who lives and who dies. A friend of mine who’s training to be an officer in the marine corp told me, that officers are often kept apart from their soldiers because they don’t want them getting too attached to their men, because sometimes its necessary to send people to their deaths. Those are the difficult decisions that a leader has to make. Michael made a mistake that day plain and simple, and as you’ve said before, perspective perspective, we’ve seen the perspective where lizzy becomes a great asset to the tower, had she died then and there, her death would have been trivial at best, she would have been some girl that they couldn’t save. It’s the same story with burt, people are angry at the thought of angel not saving burt, had angel not saved burt, burt would have been a trivial character who died. No one would have cared, but we see from a perspective with burt, he’s important to us.


When you ask, if the leader has the right to decide who lives and who dies by the virtue of their perceived value”, I say yes, that is a leader’s choice, and that is the leader’s burden. This is something an officer in the military must deal with, sometimes the best choice means people die. Sometimes if it’s too much of an effort, some people must be left to suffer. A good leader must put the safety of his people first, if that means that some random old man who might already be dead not be saved because there is a serious lack of supplies, then so be it. It is the leader’s burden and his choice to decide who lives and who dies.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

No, this is a valid argument. Without Burt's guns and ammo not only does the Tower fall, Angel dies two chapters earlier in the arena trying to escape. And if they get outside, they get swamped and are unable to leave because they can't fend off the zombies attacking the hummer. If you claim this is an invalid argument, so is your counter that they would have made ammunition a priority. That, too, is not supported by evidence.

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ok I didn’t state things clearly there, what I meant to say was that, the story developed a certain way because of the events that happened. All I’m saying is that, there is more than one way to reach the same destination. We don’t know how the story would have turned out had burt and lizzy not been saved, but we cannot reach the conclusion that the tower would have died without burt/lizzy, because maybe burt being left behind and lizzy dying at the front door would have unlocked other possibilities, other roads to go down, other paths to follow. In short, its possible that if lizzy and burt weren’t there, maybe the tower wouldn’t have encountered the Mallers at all? Who knows? We sure as hell don’t, cause that’s not the path the story followed.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I'm wondering how the gentle easing and exchange of power will occur in a zombie apocalypse? The situation is always going to be dire (supplies are running short, other groups coming to attack etc etc). In Kc's universe, we've really only seen power taken in one way: abruptly. If Angel needs to be eased into it, he will continue to be the Riker to Michael's Picard unless Michael is incapacitated in some manner, Angel is incapacitated in some manner or the series ends.

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As for how gentle the exchange of power will be, right now is a VERY bad time, because right now, the tower is in a state of crisis. Even when Michael wanted to stop being leader he did not stop being leader during the war with the Mallers or during the fire, because shit was going down, and a change of power was not possible at that time. He quit after the war, after things had cooled down, were things bad then? Yes there was a lot that had to be done, but it was a calmer situation than right now, Right now we are accelerating to a war, saul is on a warpath, the tower came this close to launching a full frontal assault on the Mallers. The situation is heightening fast, now is definitely not the time for a power switch, plus Michael is doing good, he’s fired up, he just got his job back, he wont be changing leadership for a while. but when that time does come, it has to be either AFTER a climax or during the lull between the climax and the next storyline climax, not right before or during a climax.. if that made any sense

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Originally Posted by Wicked Sid

Mike may have done it first. Blam. Just because Angel went through OC school doesn't mean that he's garaunteed to become a good leader or, for that matter, a leader at all. Only time creates diamonds.

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no he's not, as a matter of fact, when angel first started, he was really incapable in the field, he couldnt do anything, despite his officer training, but he's grown past that now, he's one of the best men to send into the field, no matter what his mission might be, Angel will always succeed. (Thats right haters, come get some, Angel has never failed a single mission he's been on). So now he has the street smarts, and the officer training, what he needs now is charisma and the fire to want to lead.

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Originally Posted by Luna Guardian

As long as Michael and Burt are around and willing to lead, no, I don't think Angel will be able to take control of the Tower. However, should Michael go on another one of his "walkabouts", I think there's a possibility that Angel might take charge. He's not a dumb guy, he's just woefully unprepared for the new world we find our heroes in. With time, he'll adapt and become a better leader

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i'll give you the michael part, but Burt is done, he had a shot at leadership, and he's done, he wants nothing to do with it, besides his storyline revolves around protecting his friends and keeping them safe because he wasnt able to save his wife.

Angel will take control and will possibly have the position for a long time

... but because he takes the position, he will die a slow, horrible death