Chapter 22 - "Our Doubts Are Traitors" - Part 1

If the sole purpose of taking out Pippen is so the rat can throw the tower into disarray, then why spare Angel's life. That would work even better if they both were killed. The tower would be chaos.

I'll be shouting Riley did it till part 2 or 3 proves otherwise.

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Originally Posted by MrScott101

Clarkie, I really like your thought of the rat not intending to shoot but did upon recognition, however no words were exchanged and the alarm was triggered so it was premeditated.

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I might be wrong but didn't Pippen say "Oh, it's you" or something of the like. I also agree that the shooter was going in there intending to shoot someone, just not Pippen.

After more thinking, I'm starting to agree with the theory that Riley is the shooter and possibly the rat. Firstly she was drunk on the roof when Pippen came in, so there's a good chance she hasn't even seen him yet. I also think she was intending to shoot Steven originally, perhaps in revenge for getting Lizzie kicked out. I don't think this is something she would do normally, but drink combined with strong emotions can make people do stupid things. She grabs a gun, goes in expecting to find Steven (he was meant to be there), sees and recognises Pippen instead (possibly from some contact with the mallers, or if she is indeed the rat (something I doubt)), panicks and shoots him.

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Originally Posted by clarkie

I might be wrong but didn't Pippen say "Oh, it's you" or something of the like. I also agree that the shooter was going in there intending to shoot someone, just not Pippen.

After more thinking, I'm starting to agree with the theory that Riley is the shooter and possibly the rat. Firstly she was drunk on the roof when Pippen came in, so there's a good chance she hasn't even seen him yet. I also think she was intending to shoot Steven originally, perhaps in revenge for getting Lizzie kicked out. I don't think this is something she would do normally, but drink combined with strong emotions can make people do stupid things. She grabs a gun, goes in expecting to find Steven (he was meant to be there), sees and recognises Pippen instead (possibly from some contact with the mallers, or if she is indeed the rat (something I doubt)), panicks and shoots him.

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I seriously doubt that Riley is a rat for the Mallers since she has been there from the beginning and I cannot think of anything the Mallers could do/give to her in exchange for her services to betray the tower.
However, the possibility of her being drunk or angry or drunk and angry and shooting Pippin is a possibility, although not very likely. I still believe that whoever the rat or rats might be were making sure that their cover wasn't blown by Pippin identifying them.

Another question is what sort of retaliation is there against Angel for leaving the room? Whether it was the right thing to do or not, him leaving directly caused what happened.

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Originally Posted by Kn1ckerb0cker33

I seriously doubt that Riley is a rat for the Mallers since she has been there from the beginning and I cannot think of anything the Mallers could do/give to her in exchange for her services to betray the tower.
However, the possibility of her being drunk or angry or drunk and angry and shooting Pippin is a possibility, although not very likely. I still believe that whoever the rat or rats might be were making sure that their cover wasn't blown by Pippin identifying them.

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I don't think it could be Riley, because I'm not entirely sure that they ever came into contact for him to recognize that it was her. Unless its some crazy european connection that they share (perhaps they met across the pond somewhere) there is no way that it was her. I'm still sticking with Steven. While he may be an obvious traitor, maybe thats the point. Its so obvious that we don't suspect him for what he really is.

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Originally Posted by zombiederek

I don't think it could be Riley, because I'm not entirely sure that they ever came into contact for him to recognize that it was her. Unless its some crazy european connection that they share (perhaps they met across the pond somewhere) there is no way that it was her. I'm still sticking with Steven. While he may be an obvious traitor, maybe thats the point. Its so obvious that we don't suspect him for what he really is.

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Yep, that's why I said it's not very likely that Riley was involved, but I'll wait and see until the next part or two comes out to confirm/debunk everyone's beliefs/theories

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Originally Posted by cupcakezombie

A final thing I noticed re-listening to this is that the alarm has faded out/stopped before the last shot. If it has stopped could this mean that Angel is resetting the alarm while the shooter is still in the room, thus ruling him out?

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The alarm fading out was an Aural choice. It was so powerful it was over-riding what was going on.

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Originally Posted by AdrianHD

That, and he also took Pippin in. He could, in theory, let him loose to the zombies whenever he wants. Why would any sane man ever go through the trouble of keeping him here just to cause all of this ruckus?

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But risk having him get back to the mallers?

I loved this episode just for the intrigue alone. I really don't think Angel would have it in him to just flat out murder some one. Sure he suggested killing Scratch and Latch, but they were legitamate, known threats. Pippin was a mystery and not necessarily a threat at all, so it wouldn't make sense for him to just start killing. It would make for a really bad turn in the story if Angle were revealed to be the traitor. Or even Reily for that matter. I just want to throw this out there and it may have already been said, but what, if the Mallers helped out Michael in the water facility? It would explain why he doesnt want to talk about it, I mean it would be a cool story to say you escaped from a giant hulking zombie, but he is all weird about it.....

Alright, so after reading the first 5 pages or so, and the last 7, (added on top, i've listened to the final 2 minutes of the podcast 10+ times) the final shot could not have been directed at the radio.

The podcast does not directly end right after the shot is made, because there's a few seconds left where you can hear running and the door opening and closing.

If the radio was shot, there would be some kind of metallic "clink" "boom" sound.

From the lack of noise made by Hope after the shot was made, that would mean that the final shot was a kill shot.

I'm not so sure Hope is dead, sure she shut up when the last shot was fired, but you can't say she wasn't just shocked into silence. Either that or she was shot, though not fatally, and it rendered her unconscious. I think there has got to be something to follow on into the rest of the chapter in the way of a clue and I think Hope will be just that.

zombiederek, I like the Michael idea, but it would really upset a large portion of the listeners, and I don't think that's the aim.

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Originally Posted by TogiStubs

Alright, so after reading the first 5 pages or so, and the last 7, (added on top, i've listened to the final 2 minutes of the podcast 10+ times) the final shot could not have been directed at the radio.

The podcast does not directly end right after the shot is made, because there's a few seconds left where you can hear running and the door opening and closing.

If the radio was shot, there would be some kind of metallic "clink" "boom" sound.

From the lack of noise made by Hope after the shot was made, that would mean that the final shot was a kill shot.

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Good Point, I was thinking about that after listening to the episode again, so the likelihood that no one was able to respond to Burt and Saul means that Hope was probably shot, but still possibly alive.
And not to get on your case Ra1th, but I know Datu isn't going to be happy with Angel if anything did happen to Hope. I'm not saying that leaving Hope in the room with a chained up Pippin was a bad move
on Angel's part, but Datu won't care either way if Hope is shot.

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Originally Posted by Kc

The alarm fading out was an Aural choice. It was so powerful it was over-riding what was going on.

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Thanks, I thought it might be a fade out, but couldn't rule out it having stopped.

I was thinking Pipen was a Maller mole right up until the end. Now, I'm forming some new theories in my head about this mysterious shooter. Here's my best one:

he knew Pipen from the other tower of survivors, fled when it was attacked, and found the Mallers whom took them in. The two of them (Pipen and this shooter) were sworn into the 'Maller Army'. However, when Pipen realized that the Mallers were criminals he began searching for other means of survival and eventually found the Tower. The Mallers proclaimed him a deserter and locked him up. When he managed to escape, he made his way to the Tower but when the Mallers realized he was gone, they sent the shooter after him. Either that, or they called their mole in the Tower to deal with him but that wouldn't explain how Pipen recognized the shooter unless he knew that person as well.

^ That's my theory.

Didn't Scratch mention to Tar and Bricks that she was "dropping Pippin off" and that they hadn't heard from "the other one" for a while?

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Originally Posted by Jeebogs

Didn't Scratch mention to Tar and Bricks that she was "dropping Pippin off" and that they hadn't heard from "the other one" for a while?

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Yeah, this lack of communication means that the Rat wouldn't be aware of the plan.

Saul's mom did take over the room where Saul was laying, so it's possible she messed with his bags. However, I don't see her turning on the people who have been taking care of her son all this time. Unless, she had a previous engagement with the Mallers that somehow forced her to take an action such as this, I don't she is a very probable suspect. Also, we know from her time at the Colony that has a very assertive personality but I don't think she's a killer.

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Originally Posted by Jeebogs

I'm not so sure Hope is dead, sure she shut up when the last shot was fired, but you can't say she wasn't just shocked into silence. Either that or she was shot, though not fatally, and it rendered her unconscious. I think there has got to be something to follow on into the rest of the chapter in the way of a clue and I think Hope will be just that.

zombiederek, I like the Michael idea, but it would really upset a large portion of the listeners, and I don't think that's the aim.

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I don't think Hope is dead either because her sense of smell is going to come in to play in the hunt for the shooter. Why else would we be given the cologne discussion unless this will be used as a clue or something used by the shooter to throw suspicion.

I think chapter 22 part 2 will be all about lizy,tar and bricks making the wait longer :(

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Originally Posted by Kn1ckerb0cker33

Good Point, I was thinking about that after listening to the episode again, so the likelihood that no one was able to respond to Burt and Saul means that Hope was probably shot, but still possibly alive.
And not to get on your case Ra1th, but I know Datu isn't going to be happy with Angel if anything did happen to Hope. I'm not saying that leaving Hope in the room with a chained up Pippin was a bad move
on Angel's part, but Datu won't care either way if Hope is shot.

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Ohh noooooo Datu is annngryyy, what's he gonna do? Same thing he always does, go cry in the corner... trololol

Just took another listen, there were 4 shots total 3 in pippen and 1 to quiet up hope!

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Originally Posted by Don Man

I think chapter 22 part 2 will be all about lizy,tar and bricks making the wait longer :(

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Unfortunately I have to agree, I imagine we will catch up with Lizzy and the Mallers with the last half of the episode dealing with Burt and his crew. The last minute of the episode will take place at the tower. KC is too good of a story teller to give away everything right off the bat.

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Originally Posted by zombiederek

Unfortunately I have to agree, I imagine we will catch up with Lizzy and the Mallers with the last half of the episode dealing with Burt and his crew. The last minute of the episode will take place at the tower. KC is too good of a story teller to give away everything right off the bat.

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Man! I hope they go back to Bricks/Tar/Lizzy! If they don't, over half my predictions for the chapter will be completely wrong!

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Originally Posted by MrScott101

Just took another listen, there were 4 shots total 3 in pippen and 1 to quiet up hope!

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Yeah, I have little "hope" that she is still alive. The shooter definitely put one in her skull. Or at least she fainted from the shock of being shot.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Ohh noooooo Datu is annngryyy, what's he gonna do? Same thing he always does, go cry in the corner... trololol

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Got tired of being trolled I see :D.

ok well lets start with the facts.
Angel Leaves the room in a hurry to secure the arms room.
the shooter is waiting nearby maybe another room or down the hall a bit away from wherever the arms room is located. because as i listened closely you clearly hear that the shooter walks casually into the room and closes the door as pippin acknowledges that he knows the person walking in. the shooter raises the suppressed firearm and fires two into the pippins chest as you can here the gasp for air gargled by blood then one into the head as you hear him slump down cause the chain moves a little. pippin KIA.

now recap a few moments before pippin is killed while angel is explaining the audio system to hope. you clearly hear one of them moving in a desk chair cause it creeks a little bit.
now to me this would explain why you dont hear a thud of hopes body hitting the floor cause she is sitting in a chair an only slumps down when shot if she was. also before the last round is fired she begs for her life, and while she is and after her plea you can hear the shooter move around a bit before firing his last round. the thing that to me says hope is killed is that before you hear the shooter running out of the guard room. after there last shot you dont hear hopes breathing anymore.

my bet is on the first one to arrive to the armory after angel is the shooter...as long as its not michael

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Ohh noooooo Datu is annngryyy, what's he gonna do? Same thing he always does, go cry in the corner... trololol

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lol Yeah I anticipate a lot of Datu crying and screaming "HOOOOOOPE!"

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Originally Posted by SnipesR1

ok well lets start with the facts.
Angel Leaves the room in a hurry to secure the arms room.
the shooter is waiting nearby maybe another room or down the hall a bit away from wherever the arms room is located. because as i listened closely you clearly hear that the shooter walks casually into the room and closes the door as pippin acknowledges that he knows the person walking in. the shooter raises the suppressed firearm and fires two into the pippins chest as you can here the gasp for air gargled by blood then one into the head as you hear him slump down cause the chain moves a little. pippin KIA.

now recap a few moments before pippin is killed while angel is explaining the audio system to hope. you clearly hear one of them moving in a desk chair cause it creeks a little bit.
now to me this would explain why you dont hear a thud of hopes body hitting the floor cause she is sitting in a chair an only slumps down when shot if she was. also before the last round is fired she begs for her life, and while she is and after her plea you can hear the shooter move around a bit before firing his last round. the thing that to me says hope is killed is that before you hear the shooter running out of the guard room. after there last shot you dont hear hopes breathing anymore.

my bet is on the first one to arrive to the armory after angel is the shooter...as long as its not michael

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I agree, I think it would ruin the show for me if the traitor is Michael. He's my favorite character and I would rather see him die that betray the tower.

yea im right there with ya on that. but it is kinda sad if they did kill hope to see her put down like that. especially with the devolping plot line of her unique ability to have better hearing then everyone else to hear something coming up on them. but when i think about it this is a horror story first and foremost and to every silver lining survial happy ending theres alot of bloody corpses that paved the road to the end. plus in my opinion hope has served and ended for the most part one running plotline. so she may have somewhat finished serving her purpose except to in the end send datu on one last raged filled mission to destroy the rat and any trader or maybe traders!

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Ohh noooooo Datu is annngryyy, what's he gonna do? Same thing he always does, go cry in the corner... trololol

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I think you underestimate Datu. The poor bastard can only take so much before he snaps completely. And if Hope is dead, Datu's going to go over the edge hard.

I'm imagining him grabbing a wrench from his toolbox and taking a swing right for Angel's face. Like I said before, it won't fair, but Datu won't be in any condition to care about fair.

Has anyone confirmed Pippin's death?

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Originally Posted by Uber Behemoth

Has anyone confirmed Pippin's death?

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Confirmed? Nope. But I hear three slugs going into a body and it's not Hope's because her reaction doesn't sound like that of someone who's been shot twice and then killed with the final shot. Since no one else is in the room, seems like all three of those rounds hit Pippin. But you are correct, we technically do not know if Pippin is dead.

We just have really good reason to believe he is. The real burning question is where did that 4th round go?

I think it's implied that the 4th round went into Hope but I don't think we have enough evidence to say she's dead yet. She could have made a run for the door (assuming she was familiar enough with the room) and just been wounded. Or, maybe Hope had a hidden gun on her and she got a lucky shot off at Pippen's killer. I'm sure the former scenario is more plausible.

Glad I'm not the only one looking for what happened to Lizzie and Bricks. Tardust, though... yeah, I'm interested, but I'm waiting for him to bite the big one, or in this case, get bitten by a Big One.

Here's my notes on this episode:

• Michael has Pegs skip guard duty because of Pippin
  
  • This could be because of his suspicions about Pippin being a Maller
  • That coupled with Pegs **ahem** connection with Scratch.
• Victor wears excessive cologne
  
  • This could be a foreshadowing to a large scale event that is soon coming
• Angel refers to Hope as "dear". Aww... Isn't that sweet?
• Bluejay (Jacob) & Robin (James) are going to check out "that other area"
  
  • They could be headed to Van Nuys, but it isn't explicitly stated where that "other area" is, or what the "thing" they are looking for. (most likely another helo)
• The residents of the tower are still finding electronic entertainment. (Saul's "Gameboy")
  
  • This means that they are doing battery runs. Just interesting.
  • I guess the batteries could also be used for the long range walkies.
• Burt is working on remote explosives / distractions
  
  • I'm staking my flag in this that this will be used in the future
• The silenced pistol is missing from the bag
  
  • The zombie that comes for them had to be a regular
  • This was most likely taken by the shooter at the end of the chapter
• Burt is going through something that is causing his hands to shake
  
  • Most likely PTSD.
• Radio Silence from the Nest.
  
  • Most likely due to the shooter
• Pippin jumps on the chance to listen to the headset
  
  • This could be because he want to make sure no one else was on the headset
• The alarm readout is in the surveillance room.
  
  • Whoever the shooter is mostly likely knew this as well.
  • That could be either an intentional distraction, or collateral distraction.
• Pippin recognizes the shooter before they identify themselves or their weapon
• Pippin receives 3 silenced shots
• One more shot occurs before the episode ends
  
  • This could be the shooting of Hope
  • This could also be the shooter taking out the radio

One side note about the final scene. Remember that this podcast is told through the journals. If all participants of a scene die, how do the journals know what happened? (this is my take on whether or not Hope died)

First off hello. Sorta new here.
A few things I've noticed that nobody seems to have mentioned.. It was just what, last chapter that we had semi screwed up timelines. So Burt talking to kalani could have been after the shooting. Datu was getting the tools together when angel/hope took over for kelly. Also when kalani radioed Burt there was a certain hurried sound to his voice at first and the motor sounded like high acceleration. ( that could just be coincidence). Another thing is Burt said kalani sent them to lax. Burt saw a hawiian airlines on the Tarmac. Wouldn't kalani have already known the coast guard chopper was there then? I dunno, I like the rilely on a revenge theory better but too many things still don't add up to me about kalani.
And poor Burt he never really did get a chance to really grieve over tommy. Don't think it's ever been mentioned but doubtful he and Shirley ever had kids. Tommy (and now Saul ) seem to fill the void of someone to care for... Quite sad really.
And hopes character has always been a metaphor.......:/

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Originally Posted by HardKor

I think you underestimate Datu. The poor bastard can only take so much before he snaps completely. And if Hope is dead, Datu's going to go over the edge hard.

I'm imagining him grabbing a wrench from his toolbox and taking a swing right for Angel's face. Like I said before, it won't fair, but Datu won't be in any condition to care about fair.

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How awesome would it be to see a one on one duel between Datu and Steven (who I believe is the rat). It would be a nice change of pace with him instead of his just pissing and moaning all the time.

Ok I'm not sure if this has been touched on yet, but I was listening to chapter 20 again and Lizzy is narrating her story as if she were writing in her journal...which she has no access to. So does this mean that the end has come for all of the characters and this is just a recount of events from the journal's or could one argue that Lizzy or maybe even other characters are already dead and are just narrating their stories from beyond? Not sure if this has been talked about yet but I think this is something to consider.

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Originally Posted by zombiederek

Ok I'm not sure if this has been touched on yet, but I was listening to chapter 20 again and Lizzy is narrating her story as if she were writing in her journal...which she has no access to. So does this mean that the end has come for all of the characters and this is just a recount of events from the journal's or could one argue that Lizzy or maybe even other characters are already dead and are just narrating their stories from beyond? Not sure if this has been talked about yet but I think this is something to consider.

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This is a can of worms you are opening that has no good answer at this moment (and honestly we may never know the answer until the final chapter part). And this discussion has come up before on the forum but I think it might have come up in a compilation thread, or maybe a chapter discussion because I can't find it right now. (HINT HINT: Who wants to make a theory thread about the journals?)

Lizzy doesn't have access to her written journal, but she was recording either an audio or a videotaped journal entry to comfort herself. As for the lines she said after the recorder clicked off (when she was in the car dealership parking lot), I took that as she was just talking to herself and for the sake of no one but herself, not as a journal entry.

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Originally Posted by 70DDISDEAD

First off hello. Sorta new here.
A few things I've noticed that nobody seems to have mentioned.. It was just what, last chapter that we had semi screwed up timelines. So Burt talking to kalani could have been after the shooting. Datu was getting the tools together when angel/hope took over for kelly. Also when kalani radioed Burt there was a certain hurried sound to his voice at first and the motor sounded like high acceleration. ( that could just be coincidence). Another thing is Burt said kalani sent them to lax. Burt saw a hawiian airlines on the Tarmac. Wouldn't kalani have already known the coast guard chopper was there then? I dunno, I like the rilely on a revenge theory better but too many things still don't add up to me about kalani.
And poor Burt he never really did get a chance to really grieve over tommy. Don't think it's ever been mentioned but doubtful he and Shirley ever had kids. Tommy (and now Saul ) seem to fill the void of someone to care for... Quite sad really.
And hopes character has always been a metaphor.......:/

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Welcome to the party! :)

Very frequently the timeline of the narrative gets skewed. For instance when Michael, Pegs and Kelly were stuck in the Colony, the Angel and Kalani storyline that was being told along side it happened at a different time. And you are correct, it would seem Burt/Kalani radio conversation apparently has happened after the assassination of Pippin.

Kalani's story is he was rushing from the instant he landed. If he was running for his fat life, he probably wouldn't take notice of a helicopter in the area. Besides, LAX is huge and Burt's mention of the Hawaiian Airlines plane could have been a very far distance away from the chopper they found since it was contained in narration and not real time dialogue with Saul.

Great first post! Very good observations :)