Chapter 24 discussion- "The Harder They Fall"

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Originally Posted by cerealkiller

I thought the same as you did at first. But then I remembered Kalani's past. For example this is the second chapter he is seen in, and the first chapter that he is in the Tower. The first one in which he appears being the purgatory.
http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showw...and+Recreation
In this, it had literally been one night and two days, before the 'traitor' had first been discovered, from the arrival of Kalani to the tower for the first time. After being in the Arena for about a month, prior to being in the Other Tower for 3 days before that, and then in Hawaii and some sort of hotel before the tower.
I don't see how he could have come into contact with the Mallers - even if he got his hands onto a radio, would he know their channel? Would they keep it the same? Since it had to have been at least a month since he had last spoken to them - or so. How would they organize such a large attack in a single day? And another thing. If the Mallers held 'his Hanna' as ransom for him to do their bidding, and he disappeared for a month, with no word, probably dead, why the hell would they keep 'his Hanna' alive?
Perhaps, if he does end up being the traitor, those will remain one of those unanswered questions in this podcast.
Those are pretty much the only reasons I believe Kalani wasn't the spy.
I think it might have been someone who had arrived in that second batch of people - the first being Michael and the gang + Lizzy.
It's all just making me so curious...

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Good point. It better not be an unanswered question BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW! I think after we find out who Hannah is and what was in that journal, we'll understand.

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Originally Posted by cerealkiller

I thought the same as you did at first. But then I remembered Kalani's past. For example this is the second chapter he is seen in, and the first chapter that he is in the Tower. The first one in which he appears being the purgatory.
http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showw...and+Recreation
In this, it had literally been one night and two days, before the 'traitor' had first been discovered, from the arrival of Kalani to the tower for the first time. After being in the Arena for about a month, prior to being in the Other Tower for 3 days before that, and then in Hawaii and some sort of hotel before the tower.
I don't see how he could have come into contact with the Mallers - even if he got his hands onto a radio, would he know their channel? Would they keep it the same? Since it had to have been at least a month since he had last spoken to them - or so. How would they organize such a large attack in a single day? And another thing. If the Mallers held 'his Hanna' as ransom for him to do their bidding, and he disappeared for a month, with no word, probably dead, why the hell would they keep 'his Hanna' alive?
Perhaps, if he does end up being the traitor, those will remain one of those unanswered questions in this podcast.
Those are pretty much the only reasons I believe Kalani wasn't the spy.
I think it might have been someone who had arrived in that second batch of people - the first being Michael and the gang + Lizzy.
It's all just making me so curious...

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He could have just fabricated his past?

Well who's to say that he went silent for a month? Perhaps he was still communicating with them the whole time. Perhaps he even lied to them a bunch to tip the odds in favour of the Tower crew?

Damn it, I need to get my hands (or rather ears in this case!) on that journal!

See know for sure that Hannah dying meant something to Kalani. We know for sure Pippen was indeed a spy. And we know for sure someone purposely killed Pippen in stealth. I'm not sure how else the dots can be connected. The Mallers had leverage against Kalani via Hannah, whether or not they were aware of that fact is an assumption I'm making to complete the connection but they did for sure have leverage over Kalani.

Still not really feeling the whole Angel / Scratch thing. Angel has always seemed a bit of a baby to me. I can't see him doing anything remotely criminal that Scratch would also be doing.

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Originally Posted by wh33t

He could have just fabricated his past?

Well who's to say that he went silent for a month? Perhaps he was still communicating with them the whole time. Perhaps he even lied to them a bunch to tip the odds in favour of the Tower crew?

Damn it, I need to get my hands (or rather ears in this case!) on that journal!

See know for sure that Hannah dying meant something to Kalani. We know for sure Pippen was indeed a spy. And we know for sure someone purposely killed Pippen in stealth. I'm not sure how else the dots can be connected. The Mallers had leverage against Kalani via Hannah, whether or not they were aware of that fact is an assumption I'm making to complete the connection but they did for sure have leverage over Kalani.

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He could have made up some of his past - obviously not the being a pilot one. So let's assume the Hawaii part is true also.
But he definitely could not have been in contact with them for that month, ROFL. He was in the Arena... Did you forget the whole purgatory chapter? They barely had food there. Even if he had a way to communicate with them, it did not look likely that he would live, and no one could have known that the people from the Tower would come to Datu's rescue. So I think communicating for that month, within the Arena, wasn't possible. And that still leaves how he would get the news out to the Mallers at the one night he was there, I doubt anyone would let him use the walkie-talkie or whatever, seeing as he had JUST got here, and it's not an extremely trusting crowd.
Hanna, obviously was someone he loved. Though why are we all jumping the gun assuming she was the red-head? If something that important had happened we would hear Michael saying what happened in the chopper or something. She could have been someone he lost a while ago, perhaps in the Arena as well, perhaps before. Maybe he was responsible for her death or felt responsible, so he wanted to 'pay back' by sacrificing himself.
There are so many 'what if's' in Kalani's case, and SO many unanswered questions that I think we'll need a whole chapter just called 'Kalani's Journal' if we ever want answers to all of them. xD
At least I can't wait to find out the main parts. As in if he was the traitor, and who Hanna was. And if he was the traitor I'll just have all these 'HOW?' questions, as I said now.

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Originally Posted by cerealkiller

He could have made up some of his past - obviously not the being a pilot one. So let's assume the Hawaii part is true also.
But he definitely could not have been in contact with them for that month, ROFL. He was in the Arena... Did you forget the whole purgatory chapter? They barely had food there. Even if he had a way to communicate with them, it did not look likely that he would live, and no one could have known that the people from the Tower would come to Datu's rescue. So I think communicating for that month, within the Arena, wasn't possible. And that still leaves how he would get the news out to the Mallers at the one night he was there, I doubt anyone would let him use the walkie-talkie or whatever, seeing as he had JUST got here, and it's not an extremely trusting crowd.
Hanna, obviously was someone he loved. Though why are we all jumping the gun assuming she was the red-head? If something that important had happened we would hear Michael saying what happened in the chopper or something. She could have been someone he lost a while ago, perhaps in the Arena as well, perhaps before. Maybe he was responsible for her death or felt responsible, so he wanted to 'pay back' by sacrificing himself.
There are so many 'what if's' in Kalani's case, and SO many unanswered questions that I think we'll need a whole chapter just called 'Kalani's Journal' if we ever want answers to all of them. xD
At least I can't wait to find out the main parts. As in if he was the traitor, and who Hanna was. And if he was the traitor I'll just have all these 'HOW?' questions, as I said now.

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Are you saying Kalani only briefed the tower for one night before the big attack? If so, I completely over-looked that key factor. I would have a hard time imagining they planned the attack on such short notice as well and I certainly don't presume Kalani was speaking with the Mallers whilst in the Arena.

I also think I need to re-listen to Kalani's last moments but I could have sworn I thought he mentioned the golf course and Hanna in the same sentence.

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Originally Posted by cerealkiller

He could have made up some of his past - obviously not the being a pilot one. So let's assume the Hawaii part is true also.
But he definitely could not have been in contact with them for that month, ROFL. He was in the Arena... Did you forget the whole purgatory chapter? They barely had food there. Even if he had a way to communicate with them, it did not look likely that he would live, and no one could have known that the people from the Tower would come to Datu's rescue. So I think communicating for that month, within the Arena, wasn't possible. And that still leaves how he would get the news out to the Mallers at the one night he was there, I doubt anyone would let him use the walkie-talkie or whatever, seeing as he had JUST got here, and it's not an extremely trusting crowd.
Hanna, obviously was someone he loved. Though why are we all jumping the gun assuming she was the red-head? If something that important had happened we would hear Michael saying what happened in the chopper or something. She could have been someone he lost a while ago, perhaps in the Arena as well, perhaps before. Maybe he was responsible for her death or felt responsible, so he wanted to 'pay back' by sacrificing himself.
There are so many 'what if's' in Kalani's case, and SO many unanswered questions that I think we'll need a whole chapter just called 'Kalani's Journal' if we ever want answers to all of them. xD
At least I can't wait to find out the main parts. As in if he was the traitor, and who Hanna was. And if he was the traitor I'll just have all these 'HOW?' questions, as I said now.

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There seem to be some big pros and cons for Kalani being the rat.
Pros:
1) Hannah being held by the Mallers is definite leverage over him. And it does seem pretty clear she was the one killed at the golf course. Otherwise why would Kalani go berserk at that moment as opposed to before? And she was the only significant death in the chapter at that point.
2) Kalani leaving something in Bill's desk just makes us all think "rat" since Bill was the presumed rat in the beginning.
3) Kalani leaving something in Bill's desk also means he was hiding something.

Cons:
1) Scratch mentioning that the Mallers have two Tower residents. She would have known the decoy team was going to kill the girl at the golf course (I doubt they would have done that without her say so and risked her wrath) so the other person couldn't be "Hannah" which mean there might be another hostage the Mallers have been using as leverage. Kalani might not have know the Mallers had Hannah until she was killed.
2) Tardust mentioned a girl when talking about Pippin making contact. And it seems to insinuate a female rat.

Seriously all this "who's the rat?" stuff is making me cross-eyed :p

Haha, it's making me cross-eyed too. xD
Do we even know for sure his Hanna is the red-head? Does he mention jer name and the golf court in the same sentance?
And yeah, he only had one night in the tower, before the Mallers attacked. The traitor had apparently already said everything about the Tower people to the Mallers, and did Kalani really know them enough in that one night to tell the Mallers what they would need to know for tomorrow night?
I don't know. It's all possible. I just want answers. xD I'm the type of person that wants a beliavable outcome to every situation that can be explained. Sadly that doesn't seem KC's style. Damn him. xD

Another thing that just crossed my mind, is whether Samantha( was that Hope mom's name?) had said Kalani had been in the Arena longer than her or that they arrived together?!
Cause if he arrived sooner he couldn't have been from the Other Tower since Samantha definitely was, and the stories he told could have been just told to him by Sam. Then again Datu was there, but he was also very distraught, so I don't know if he would remember such a detail. He could have been sent to the arena to investigate, ause they were planning to blow it up.
That's only if Sam said he had come there before her. xD
GAAAAH. I just really need this journal.

Also the second person Scratch was talking about could just have been Lizzy's baby, in case she really is pregnant like it seems. :'D

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Originally Posted by wh33t

If Angel had some kind of criminal record how would he have gotten into the Army to become an officer?

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saul has a criminal record to and he got in and when angel and when kalani and angel went on that mission for food kalani always mentioned how angel was good at steeling cars

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Originally Posted by andrew_huber

saul has a criminal record to and he got in and when angel and when kalani and angel went on that mission for food kalani always mentioned how angel was good at steeling cars

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But isn't there a huge difference between being an officer and just being a specialist? I figured to be some kind of leader in the military means having a clean criminal record, I sure hope it's that way at least lol, but isn't that part of the inside joke that Angel and Saul used to argue about (him being an officer and Saul just being a specialist).

I don't personally recall him saying he stole cars but was referring to the fact that Angel knows how to hot wire a car. I know how to hot wire some cars, but I'm not necessarily a criminal, I just come from a family of mechanics. Could you reference that particular point in which episode, I should re-listen to that part as I don't recall it ever being blatantly said that Angel had actually stolen a car.

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Originally Posted by cerealkiller

I don't know. It's all possible. I just want answers. xD I'm the type of person that wants a beliavable outcome to every situation that can be explained. Sadly that doesn't seem KC's style. Damn him. xD

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Now that you mention it... what if KC is NEVER PLANNING to tell us wtf happened to Michaels arm ?!o.O!?

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Originally Posted by wh33t

I don't recall it ever being blatantly said that Angel had actually stolen a car.

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i dont think he ever blatantly accuses angel of stealing a car

Is it possible that he didnt fall, but was able to grab the rope and do a sort of Tarzan swing to the other building? He could have crashed through a window and just got knocked out. I just dont think KC would have killed Burt so easily like that. I am 100% certain he will be back in season 3 maybe to help Lizzy escape the mallers

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Originally Posted by zombiederek

Is it possible that he didnt fall, but was able to grab the rope and do a sort of Tarzan swing to the other building? He could have crashed through a window and just got knocked out. I just dont think KC would have killed Burt so easily like that. I am 100% certain he will be back in season 3 maybe to help Lizzy escape the mallers

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I dunno, I find it quite believable that Burt could be written off like that. I've seen that kind of end to a character before in movies. I do want him to come back though and I really thought Saul was going to get Lizzy back in time before the episode was over.

It would be kinda of funny, in a sinical way, if Burt was to die, not that I want him to mind you.

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Originally Posted by andrew_huber

saul has a criminal record to and he got in and when angel and when kalani and angel went on that mission for food kalani always mentioned how angel was good at steeling cars

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Saul is enlisted, Angel is an officer, there's a difference.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Saul is enlisted, Angel is an officer, there's a difference.

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Would you mind elaborating on the difference? I'm a military noob.

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Originally Posted by wh33t

Would you mind elaborating on the difference? I'm a military noob.

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Background checks for officers are very heavy. You're record has to be spotless to get into officer candidate school. Officers are also required to have at the minimum, a bachelors degree. With enlisted soldiers the standards aren't so high, background checks arent as harsh, and I don't believe there is an educational requirement.

If Angel had a criminal record, he wouldn't have been able to become an officer. But like someone said before, you only get a criminal record if you get caught.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Background checks for officers are very heavy. You're record has to be spotless to get into officer candidate school. Officers are also required to have at the minimum, a bachelors degree. With enlisted soldiers the standards aren't so high, background checks arent as harsh, and I don't believe there is an educational requirement.

If Angel had a criminal record, he wouldn't have been able to become an officer. But like someone said before, you only get a criminal record if you get caught.

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Awesome! Thanks for clarifying man.

I can't wait to write about this one. As I thought, there was more than one person setting off the events in the Tower. I always had my suspicions someone was being held hostage to use as leverage against the informant. Pippin turned out to be a mole after all, except he was Scratch's personal mole. Speaking of Scratch, its nice to finally see what her character is really like. If the episode hadn't ended where it did, I would have developed a girl-crush on her.

What a nice way to get rid of all the extras and keep the main cast around. I think at least one of the two boys is alive. Burt could have very well grabbed onto a balcony of the tower if he held onto the rope on the way down. I don't know how Angel could have survived but I don't see him going through all this just to get left on the rooftop to end it here. From a story telling point of view, I see this as an opportunity for him to finally mature as a character. If Riley can't make a man out of him, Scratch certainly can.

Wow shit really hit the fan this chapter. Only 6 confirmed survivors on the helicopter.

First death was Kalani I believe. The helicopter crash, the way the moments before his death were set up, I don’t think he’s coming back. From a story point that character no longer has anything left to contribute. Anything he had to say is now in his journal. So that’s that. Although it’s worth noting that helicopters are built to withstand crashes, unlike planes they don’t have ejector seats (chopper blades above, (although there are newer models that have the chopper blades eject off, and then the pilot ejects but that isn’t the case here)). But anyway, there really doesn’t seem to be any good reason for Kalani to survive, he’s contributed everything he has to contribute. Farewell Kalani, you were a good guy. (Also Kevin Flood, I hope you’ll still come to future We’re Alive conventions, you’re an awesome dude to talk to!)

Burt “died”. So it’s been predicted by everyone and anyone for a long time now that this would happen. But everyone said warrior’s death, not something like this. In a way it is suiting for Burt. He was an unparalleled soldier, and he didn’t die at the hands of his enemy. At the same time he sure as shit didn’t die on his own terms. The big reason someone would have in saying that Burt is still alive is that he didn’t get his last words. It wasn’t like with Kalani where he told Angel that he was sorry about the tire, and left a will of sorts in asking Angel to retrieve his journal. Burt’s line just snapped, and one minute he was there and the next he was gone. But often times that’s just what death is. Not everyone dies a heroic death, and what better way to convey that point by having the tower’s best marksman fall to his death. In a way Burt had his hero moment as time slowed and he sniped off the rpg maller, and in a way he failed there too. It’s symbolic in a way, even when he succeeds, he fails to protect. It’s really possible to see Burt as a tragic hero, who even with all his might could not save a friend in need of his help. Of course I could be reading way too much into this and Burt managed to pull off the Tarzan swing and is just badly injured. Also at the end, Scratch did say to put the badly injured one they found with the old man. Maybe old man Burt is alive. I’m fine with either really. (Scott Marvin you’re an egg-celent actor and downright hilarious. I hope Burt lives and we get to hear more of your improve bloopers).

And now Angel. Honestly I was a bit annoyed that the same two characters who just recently had cliff hanger will they survive moment are having another one, a few hours later. Couldn’t it have been any other set? Maybe it could have been Riley and Burt in the building, Angel and Kalani make the rescue or Burt n Riley, or any other combination. Oh well, it’s not like I think he’s dead or anything. He has way too much going for him, leadership, riley, scratch relation blah blah blah all the same shit I said two weeks ago when the exact same thing happened. There was about a 1-2 minute time window where the “camera “was focused elsewhere for him to go do something. I’m sure he’s injured as hell but I’m sure he’ll survive miraculously. The problem is I don’t think both Burt AND Angel can miraculously escape death, and of the two Angel has a lot more going for him, and he was in a much better position than Burt was. The thing at the end where Scratch finds someone badly injured could easily be Angel, although it was the sound of metal rather than rubble beneath the finder’s feet. Could be Saul or Victor, but maybe that means one of them is dead? Last I recalled, they had an rpg land near the Hummer and knock it over. No reason they should be dead but who knows.

Add in Lizzy, she was with the Mallers, didn’t hear much of her, so no reason she’s dead either.

I don’t even know what happened to Steven, and I don’t really care, I wasn’t really invested in the guy.

As for the rat, Scratch says there were two Mallers in the tower. We found out one of them was Pippin. The other person who was the rat, the one who killed Pippin, is now most definitely on the tower’s side. I wonder if that’s what Kalani’s last confession might be in his journal, or will it be Kelly who’s also on the chopper?

@Ra1th
Saul and Victor survived the RPG because it wasn't a direct hit. They ran off somewhere and KC left it at that. I'm on the boat with you that he had time to make a Resident Evil style leap from the rooftop to save himself. It's not his time yet.

@Raith
There were 7 survivors and a dog on the chopper
Michael, Pegs, Riley, Datu, Kelly, Tanya, Hope and Lady.

Steven got lumped in with the other minor characters. Who got made lunch while trying to escape, or crushed by the tower falling on them. The exception being Lewis who was presumably still tied up when the tower fell.

I think its more than possible that Saul, Lizzy and Victor all got away. It would appear that Lizzy was left alone in the confusion. They got out the Hummer, and presumably would have headed over to her.

Extra note: That artwork is sweet!

In another thread I postulated that juvenile records could be sealed, right? A background check might not find that

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Originally Posted by GD_Elite

I just noticed, that just before the Hummer shows up on the scene,~37:30 Scratch says to Angel, "Good bye, Old...."(interrupted). I think this could have been her about to say Old Friend. I think she has remembered how she knows him, and this makes it seem like she might want to keep him alive for it.

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I haven't seen anyone else touch on this, but I think she was saying Goodbye Old Man. Burt was the last person to talk to the Mallers over the radio. Seems like that would be the person she was talking to was the last person to talk to her.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Sorry, gd.....totally.happened. Can someone tell me if beez cried on the kamakazi mission kalani went on?

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Yes... yes I did.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I haven't seen anyone else touch on this, but I think she was saying Goodbye Old Man. Burt was the last person to talk to the Mallers over the radio. Seems like that would be the person she was talking to was the last person to talk to her.

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You are probably right, I forgot about Burt taking the radio. It doesn't completely rule out the possibility of what I said. However, if you are right it is more evidence towards the mallers having taken Burt, because thats another time that she refers to him as old man, which is what is said after the credits.

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Originally Posted by GD_Elite

You are probably right, I forgot about Burt taking the radio. It doesn't completely rule out the possibility of what I said. However, if you are right it is more evidence towards the mallers having taken Burt, because thats another time that she refers to him as old man, which is what is said after the credits.

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Absolutely true. It doesn't rule it out that she might have been talking to Angel, but I'mma go Occam's Razor on it. It is the simplest solution, meaning, using the same principle, she was most likely talking about Burt/Burt's Body in the epilogue of the chapter.

We've already seen remains be used as "bargaining chips" so to speak. Scratch might be doing the same by reclaiming Tower bodies and promising to defile them or something. Of course the odd thing is she has found what she was looking for...so is her claiming to want Pegs a ruse to get close and distract the Tower from her real purpose? Or is Pegs still a priority in her mind?

I think you might be onto something with the mallers wanting dead bodies. After the credits, when Bricks says he found someone, Scratch asks if this one was alive. This could suggest that the "old man" is in fact dead, and only the very injured person is confirmed to be alive.

I don't think that Scratch would only be pretending to want Pegs, considering that the whole chapter she was saying she wanted her, and that pegs killed he brother (obviously).

There is some proof for your idea though. Scratch assumes a lot about the tower. She assumes that the golf course trade was a bluff, and she assumes that they wouldn't kill Pippin. It could be possible that she assumed that they wouldn't send out Pegs, and was trying to get them to accept the offer to surrender and fight the zombs.

However, I think it is quite likely that she might have found a better bargaining chip than just Lizzy or a corpse. It is important to note that it is not stated that the survivor is what she was looking for.

Lol, perhaps she found Mr. Whiskers and knows that Pegs would willingly trade herself for the cat. :)

Mr whiskers ......

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu...

Here's my "Kalani is the Rat" scenario.
• Kalani lands a planeload of survivors from Hawaii, including "his Hannah" at LAX.
• They are captured by the Mallers.
• Recognizing the special relationship between Kalani and Hannah, the Mallers force Kalani to work for them, planting him as a spy in the "Other Tower", using Hannah as a hostage to guarantee his behavior. Somewhere in here one of the Mallers comments that Hannah is the last redhead left in LA.
• Kalani gets captured by the zombies when the Other Tower falls, and is rescued from the Arena by our Tower.
• Kalani uses the CB to get back in contact with the Mallers. He tells them the names of the leaders and lets them know about the party, which provides the perfect cover for the Mallers' attack.
• After the attack Kalani has second thoughts about helping the Mallers and stops communicating with them. Maybe something Scratch says helps; I can imagine her playing head games with Kalani and telling him that Hannah was already dead.
• Kalani recognizes Pippin as one of the Mallers and kills him. Before he leaves for LAX he writes a confessional message that he hides in Bill's desk.
• On the helicopter trip back to the Tower Saul and Michael mention the death of the redheaded woman at the golf course, and Kalani realizes that it had to be Hannah.
• Kalani uses the helicopter to stop the Mallers' attack, explaining on the radio about Hannah and telling Angel where to find his confession.
It's not an ideal scenario, and I hate the thought of Kalani being the rat, but I think it matches the facts in evidence.

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Originally Posted by mythicgr66

That episode is stuck in my head and moved me so much i had to donate, so here is my $25 for the kalani Tower Fund (Listen to the aftershow of the live steam to get the referance), kalani you will be missed, i just wish i could of been in the chopter with you, listening to Highway to Hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDpznl8eIs

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I'm liking this! I knew it was a good idea!

Kalani = Hero

For the record. I was just re-listening to chapter 7 where they do the sweat tests. During the scene where the zombies come up the adjacent tower that they ziplined down to, they cut the return zipline back to the tower because a zombie got on it. Anyway, angel says something to the effect that they should just starting dropping zombies three stories because it seems to kill themzombie as well asmaybe bullets. So we can assume the adjacent tower is 3 stories. So burt fell roughly 30-40 feet. Not as devastating as all that really. I'd say it would definitely be survivable.

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Originally Posted by Cabbage Patch

Here's my "Kalani is the Rat" scenario.
• Kalani lands a planeload of survivors from Hawaii, including "his Hannah" at LAX.
• They are captured by the Mallers.
• Recognizing the special relationship between Kalani and Hannah, the Mallers force Kalani to work for them, planting him as a spy in the "Other Tower", using Hannah as a hostage to guarantee his behavior. Somewhere in here one of the Mallers comments that Hannah is the last redhead left in LA.
• Kalani gets captured by the zombies when the Other Tower falls, and is rescued from the Arena by our Tower.
• Kalani uses the CB to get back in contact with the Mallers. He tells them the names of the leaders and lets them know about the party, which provides the perfect cover for the Mallers' attack.
• After the attack Kalani has second thoughts about helping the Mallers and stops communicating with them. Maybe something Scratch says helps; I can imagine her playing head games with Kalani and telling him that Hannah was already dead.
• Kalani recognizes Pippin as one of the Mallers and kills him. Before he leaves for LAX he writes a confessional message that he hides in Bill's desk.
• On the helicopter trip back to the Tower Saul and Michael mention the death of the redheaded woman at the golf course, and Kalani realizes that it had to be Hannah.
• Kalani uses the helicopter to stop the Mallers' attack, explaining on the radio about Hannah and telling Angel where to find his confession.
It's not an ideal scenario, and I hate the thought of Kalani being the rat, but I think it matches the facts in evidence.

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I agree with you on most of it. But I think being the last redhead is a bit silly. I think it makes more sense that the team from the golf course told him about it, and Kalani might have assumed it was her, because he knew the consequences of not helping the tower, and probably realised that the mallers werent getting any use out of him/her.

Also, I think that Kalani likely changed his mind about being the rat when Angel didn't leave him to get eaten by the Big one, which could explain why he apologised for the tyre to an extent.

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Originally Posted by beezball

For the record. I was just re-listening to chapter 7 where they do the sweat tests. During the scene where the zombies come up the adjacent tower that they ziplined down to, they cut the return zipline back to the tower because a zombie got on it. Anyway, angel says something to the effect that they should just starting dropping zombies three stories because it seems to kill themzombie as well asmaybe bullets. So we can assume the adjacent tower is 3 stories. So burt fell roughly 30-40 feet. Not as devastating as all that really. I'd say it would definitely be survivable.

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I think the calculations might be a little off.
The zipline went from the roof (~15th floor) to the adjacent roof. Then it went back down to the 3rd floor. Assuming the same angle slope on the 2 ziplwires, the adjacent tower is probably about 9 stories tall. The zombie you mentioned probably fell about 3 stories because it was close to the tower. Burt was close but probably just a bit higher than the roof of the other tower. This means that Burt probably fell around 10 floors. Not to mention that the burning tanker was beneath him. I'm not sure that he would have necessarily hit that, but its an extra reason why he might not have made it.

Hello everyone.. Long time listener, first time poster. I wanted to throw in my two cents with regard to Kalani's Hannah. His final words were exactly: "That girl? That was my Hannah". To me, that statement sounds like he either spoke with Angel about Hannah before, or that Angel will find out who Hannah was by reading the Journal he left in Bill's desk.

Here's an abstract view on the name/term 'Hannah' though. What if he didn't say Hannah at all? What if his reference was to the word "Heina" (pronounced the same)? If you look up the word, in urbanspeak it means "Male referring to his girlfriend. Term of endearment. My woman, queen, highness, above all other women. Slang for fine b*tch, main b*tch" (sorry ladies, I'm only quoting the dictionary). The band Sublime used the term in the song "Santeria"... "If I could find that heina, and that Sancho that she's found..."

Lastly, when Angel opened Bill's desk he said, "What the hell is this?" Looking at the comment logically, if he only found the Journal, his reaction wouldn't have been confusion. To me it sounds like he found something else in the desk besides the Journal.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that into the mix.. :))

Some of my theories on survival:

Burt: Everyone on the roof agreed that before Burt's zipline broke, he was very close to the other building. As a long-time climber who's used ziplines before, I can tell you that forward momentum would have carried him into the side of the building he was zipping into. He wouldn't have been on his back as some mentioned, nor on his belly (Superman style), but rather in a sitting position. Angel himself says that he only pulled up about 10 yards of rope. If Burt was close to the other building when he fell, he would have had the brunt of the rope on his side and the burned/frayed end of the rope would have been well behind him. It's very possible he could have grabbed the zip line, bounced into the side of the building, and fallen a much lesser height than we assume.

Angel: His predicament sounds more problematic, but no less survivable. The brunt of the damage to the building was to the lower floors. Those would have been the ones to collapse fully. I think we're wrongly assuming a building collapse like we saw on 9/11, but only majority of the center of the roof collapsed, probably because of fire traveling up the elevator shaft which is always in the center shaft of a building. It doesn't sound like the upper floors were too much impacted by the fire below, because remember Angel was able to descend into Bill's apartment and we weren't hearing fire noises. In addition, Hope was nearby and he didn't have to fight fire to get to her. With that in mind, the lower floors of the building could have collapsed, but that doesn't mean everything collapsed in a pile of dust, and Angel could have easily survived in a pocket of undamaged building. There have been plenty of documented cases of this in real life situations, and I'm sure our brilliant show writer knows this. :)

Saul and Victor: Last we heard from them, they sounded like they were fine (relatively). If they're smart, they'll lay low and bide their time, follow the Mallers and see what they can do tactically without giving themselves away, while at the same time trying to re-establish contact with Michael and the rest of the helicopter survivors.

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Originally Posted by archangel

Some of my theories on survival:

Burt: Everyone on the roof agreed that before Burt's zipline broke, he was very close to the other building. As a long-time climber who's used ziplines before, I can tell you that forward momentum would have carried him into the side of the building he was zipping into. He wouldn't have been on his back as some mentioned, nor on his belly (Superman style), but rather in a sitting position. Angel himself says that he only pulled up about 10 yards of rope. If Burt was close to the other building when he fell, he would have had the brunt of the rope on his side and the burned/frayed end of the rope would have been well behind him. It's very possible he could have grabbed the zip line, bounced into the side of the building, and fallen a much lesser height than we assume.

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It was me who said he would be laying on his back. Which is true, but slightly inaccurate. The harness would have be attached to the line at the waist. As they are sliding down they would be in more of a seated position, but leaning backwards in order to move forward. If they lean forward, they would rub their shoulder/face on the line. When the rope snapped, his descent would be in relatively the same position meaning he would either stand up in the air, or end up prone and laid out with his back to the ground.

The major deciding factor would be the harness and how they worked, and also if he was able to get to the rope/attempt to grab at the rope.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

The major deciding factor would be the harness and how they worked, and also if he was able to get to the rope/attempt to grab at the rope.

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Nikvoodoo, there is a third alternative of course, which I didn't think of until now. The military style hand over hand approach. Burt, being an old Gunny would have been well versed in this method. You know which one I'm referring to, the one where your hands grip the line, there's a carabiner attached to the harness at the waist, and your feet are crossed over the line and you pull yourself across. If he used this method, his hands would have been gripping the line already. They may have been out of harnesses by now and Burt may have resorted to his military training to get himself across. Using this method he would have gone down-line head first, and gripping the rope he would have swung into the side of the building in an upright position.. something to ponder..

I cryed, when burt..

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Originally Posted by Dr. Hatchet

I cryed, when burt..

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I wouldn't fret too much.. Burt's not dead. Like someone said earlier, it was too lame a death for Burt. After all we've been through with Burt, a major character of his caliber, for him to fall off a zipline and die like that would be a complete letdown. If he's going to die, he needs to die in a blaze of glory, not falling off a zipline.

Z day stories are filled of lackluster deaths. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was dead.

However, if you can explain how he narrated (with our general assumption that narration= journal entry) but died without having written in a journal, I'm listening