LOL There should be titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
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LOL There should be titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
That can be arranged
Can I be Chief in Charge of Distraction Techniques (ie I post to fill in time while the big boys are away)?
done and done
hoisted by my own petard. :p Damn semantics biting me in the ass...... I could argue that he never fully had control of the tower because everyone followed Michael and not him, but that's not worth rehashing.Quote:
Originally Posted by cupcakezombie
So we'll just say the thread title needs to get edited and leave it at that. Something along the lines of "Will Angel ever actually be the leader of the Tower?";)
So did you all listen to that Walking Dead podcast episode that mentions WA?
"Angel is inexperienced and wants to lead, but he's kind of a fuck up." (inaccurate quote because I deleted the podcast and don't want to redownload it)
Even people who haven't listened to the entire show and independent of this forum know Angel is no leader.
Just. Sayin'.
Wait. Wait. Wait.. Bruh, the post above this one (where you quoted me) you said for me to give him some slack because he'd just been through hell and killed a behemoth (actually Kalani did), but here you're saying it's cool and he's actually not so hurt as to be cool getting him "SOME."Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
So.. he's not That hurt to engage in some rigorous physical Bump and Grind, but he's too hurt to wander down the stairs and engage (as a "Leader") in what's happening in the tower. Is that correct?
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"how is that ignoring what was happening? That was i'm gettin laid! oh shit somethings wrong! hey burt what's wrong? Burt: nothing's wrong Angel: cool, back to my lady. nothing douchey there"
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I'll sum it up:
1. Angel is too wounded to step up so it's cool that he goes back to sleep
2. Angel isn't too wounded to get some ass
rofl!!Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
Wait! Huh? When? How?Quote:
Originally Posted by cupcakezombie
Man,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
I'm going to have my own page of comments after this.
I see that you can't see the danger presented. There's an emotional attachment now, so it's like talking religion or politics now.
I'm not using hindsight. My original thought when Angel ran from the room was WTF! I was expecting Pippen to throttle Hope.
Secondly, I used my experience from my time a cop in the USAF. I'm/was BISS certified (Base Installation Security Systems) which means watching a monitor bank that's linked to storage units containing Nukes, perimeter fences, buildings and coordinating responders during any perimeter breach or ALARM. Same system they used in Nuclear reactors in the mid 90's
So, it's not hindsight i'm employing.
I won't go over what I've already said because it's not soaking in. That's cool. We all are entitled to our opinions.
I will comment on the part where you say Angel wouldn't catch a break from me no matter which way he went (paraphrasing you).
That's where you're incorret. I don't think he should have left in the first place. You never "React" to a situation. You always "Act" to one.
Cupcake is talking about in the very beginning when Michael deferred to Angel before he left for the supply mission in Chapter 2(The one where they found Burt). So Angel was in charge of the Tower for.....less than 2 chapters....which equates out to 4 chapter parts because 1-1 didn't involve the Tower at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel
um.. sure. Ok. that's called delegating... but ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
I posted this because Nik had said that they would leave the tower so Angel would never be in charge, so I said that early on Michael did say that Angel was in charge (due to rank) so technically the thread has already been resolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel
Was just part of my distraction techniques.
LOL.. that's why they issue thermal imagers. Too see through smoke screens! I'm not Angel. I don't get distracted. ROFL!Quote:
Originally Posted by cupcakezombie
I have to step in and disagree with you Nik, I had meant to read the entire thread but this post stopped me. Angel can be a leader.. he has shown leadership skills.. he is rough but he is learning and learning fast. To back up my statement I must direct you to the fact that Angel has lead multiple parties out of the tower on missions, some of them simple supply runs some of them dangerous such as his little trip with Kalani. He saved Kalani's life by not abandoning him. Kalani didn't lead that mission Angel did. He earned the right to lead and the respect of Kalani on his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
The reasons why he didn't take control of the tower were limited to one thing and one thing only, experience. If something happens to Michael again I see Angel actually being skilled enough now to step into Michael's very very large shoes and keeping the place afloat and people not dead or turned.
I'll end this with a memory of my mother's 2nd husband he was a 2 tour Viet Nam vet and did his tours on the door gun of a helo where the life expectancy of one of these guys was under a minute in a fire fight. He told me that you could always tell who the best officers were you know the ones you would follow into battle. They were the guys who as butter bar Lt's had listened to and followed the direction of their more experience battle tested platoon sargent.
Ok, reality check. What has more importance in the grand scheme of things in this sort of situation? A blind 14 year old girl who can not ever be a fully functional member of the group, who will be dependent on food and shelter and protection FOREVER or the weapons and lives of the "functional" members of the tower? Mother nature is a bitch gentlemen as much as we do not like to see it or believe it folks like Hope will not survive in a future situation like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
Hope is dead either way by the bullet of the assassin or by her own blindness if the tower falls.
There are not enough people in the tower for a 2 man shift. Folks got to eat, sleep, and do other things to keep the grand old tower functional.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
Again I refer to the above statement. Is the life of one 14 year old blind girl more valued in this current situation then the lives of the physically fit and able?Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
I'll put this into perspective you might understand. We will use the Titanic's history for this example:
After the launching of the few life boats and the ship went down there were hundreds of people in the freezing cold water drowning and dying. The life boats had the option to come back and pick up survivors and do the "humane thing" and instead they waited over an hour to do so.. why you ask?
When this disaster went to the senate hearings 5th officer Harold Lowe of the Titanic was questioned why he waited so long to go back
(Harold Lowe was in-charge of the only boat to go back for survivors for historical reference ) He waited over an hour to go back for survivors . His reasoning was that he had the responsibility for the lives with him in the boat. Had he gone back for survivors the lives in the boat would have been lost by the boat being swarmed by the 1000's of people in the water. He made a choice to save the survivors he had with him rather then lose all of them and save no one.
Get it? Being a leader means you make the shitty choices. Angel made the shitty choice by leaving Hope but in his head he was trying to help the tower survive. The sign of a leader.
Holy Cow Yarri. I didn't expect that from you. I'm gonna respect ere'bodies thoughts here because it's like the Hatflields and the McCoys up in this joint.
I will say that this thread can be used as a good Psychology case study in Man's nature. Like "Lord of the Flies."
Look, once again: I, you, everyone in this place would have gone to check on the alarm. But once again, my point is he didn't even consider Hope before he left. He ran off. How hard is it to say anything to her as he's leaving the room?
I don't actually expect him to stay in the room, I presented that as another option available to him albeit a bad one. Angel did make the right decision to check on the alarm. He made the wrong choice by not even acknowledging Hope's existence when he left her.
And the reason I brought up what The Walking Dead podcast said was for a bit of levity. They were talking about the first three chapters, when I think most of us can agree Angel was incapable of leading. Had they listened to the whole show, they might have a different opinion. Sorry if it wasn't clear I was joking.
I don't think Angel is a good leader in most instances either, I just want to hop in and say the alarm may only register in the surveillance office. So it may have been that Angel was really the only one to respond. Whether he should have taken Hope or not is really my question. He didn't know what was happening to cause the alarm to go off, so maybe Angel thought the safest place for her was in the surveillance room. At least there he knew Pippin was chained up.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
Naw the alarm got louder when he opened the door so it wasn't a control room only alarm.
Only way he can lead is if he had some "Stormtroopers" behind him like they have in The Colony.
I didn't read every post in this thread but I'll comment on what I did read... I don't fault Angel for not saying "I'll be right back" or "Stay here!" or something along those lines to Hope. If anything we'd assume she'd stay put and be safe anyway. When the alarm went off in Chapter 11.3, Michael didn't say anything to Pegs, and she's his love interest! I felt it was a natural reaction for someone whose used to bolting into action at a moments notice. Does it make him any less worthy of running things? Nope. Is he worthy of leading the Tower? Nope.
Pegs is an adult. Hope is a 14 year old girl. Children need to be instructed to do things or they run around like chickens with their heads cut off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombiehead
Now Yarri.......
I've been debating if I was going to respond directly to your post or not....and obviously I've decided to or no one would be reading this....except mind readers.....get out of my head now or I'll start to imagine a nude Rush Limbaugh oil wrestling with a kangaroo to harass you. That's not a warning, it's a threat. :p
Once again, You/I/everyone agrees Angel made the right decision to leave Hope and go check the alarm. In my first or second post regarding this topic, I said I would do the same thing: Check the Alarm. This is not the point in dispute. The point in dispute is leaving the kid alone without acknowledging her in any way before he left. Listen to her voice when she realizes she's alone in the room with Pippin. Sounds pretty terrified. He left the room without saying a word to a frightened child. I, as everyone knows by now, think that's pretty shitty and not something a responsible adult should do. And I think it lends itself to the larger point I have against Angel leading in a post apocalyptic world: He still does not seem to view people as people, he still views them as commodities. And I do not think that flies in a demilitarized society.Quote:
Originally Posted by yarri
Oh come on, she survived a 30 foot fall before. How much harder can it be to survive a 50 foot fall.....[/tongue removed from cheek] ;)Quote:
Hope is dead either way by the bullet of the assassin or by her own blindness if the tower falls.
Well quite honestly with the amount of crap that has gone down (Kelly/Lizzy falling asleep, a thief stealing just about everything, the Tower betrayed, two guards attempting to run away and dying for it, Angel duped into leaving the room for the assassin...) I'd think it should be a pretty high priority to figure out how to rotate 2 people on guard duty because obviously one man shifts aren't cutting it.Quote:
There are not enough people in the tower for a 2 man shift. Folks got to eat, sleep, and do other things to keep the grand old tower functional.
To which I respond with a quote from the British Inquiry's Final Report:Quote:
Again I refer to the above statement. Is the life of one 14 year old blind girl more valued in this current situation then the lives of the physically fit and able?
I'll put this into perspective you might understand. We will use the Titanic's history for this example...
...When this disaster went to the senate hearings 5th officer Harold Lowe of the Titanic was questioned why he waited so long to go back
(Harold Lowe was in-charge of the only boat to go back for survivors for historical reference ) He waited over an hour to go back for survivors . His reasoning was that he had the responsibility for the lives with him in the boat. Had he gone back for survivors the lives in the boat would have been lost by the boat being swarmed by the 1000's of people in the water. He made a choice to save the survivors he had with him rather then lose all of them and save no one.
Your Titanic anecdote is one I already know being the history geek that I am. And just to clarify: as Boat 14 was waiting for the screams to die down there was a volunteer crew of 7 people including Lowe. He dropped off his survivors in other life boats.Quote:
I heard much evidence as to the conduct of the boats after the "Titanic" sank and when there must have been many struggling people in the water, and I regret to say that in my opinion some, at all events, of the boats failed to attempt to save lives when they might have done so, and might have done so successfully. This was particularly the case of boat No. 1. (Hendrickson, 5011) (Symons, 11501, 11527) It may reasonably have been thought that the risk of making the attempt was too great; but it seems to me that if the attempt had been made by some of these boats it might have been the means of saving a few more lives.
And I think it's actually very interesting your choosing Harold Lowe, because while he was out searching for bodies, he came upon a "Japanese" man who was apparently dead lashed to a frail raft, and said "What's the use? He's dead, likely, and if he isn't there's others better worth saving than a Jap." and he turned the boat away from the man. He eventually changed his mind, turned around, pulled the man aboard, and after he was revived the "Japanese" man quickly regained all his strength to the point he pushed an exhausted oar-man out of his seat and took over for him, prompting Lowe to state: "By jove, I'm ashamed of what I said about the little blighter. I'd save the likes o' him six times over, if I got the chance." (account from Charlotte Collyer). Turns out the dude was most likely a Chinese sailor named Fang Lang
Does this story sound familiar? The only thing missing is a shipsman named Saul yelling at him to turn around and go back to sound exactly like Angel/Saul/Burt in chapter 3. Knowing how history gets remembered (and hearing some other stories of Lowe's temper including the firing of shots from his lifeboat horizontally down the Titanic as it was being lowered), I'd bet the others in the boat did yell at him to turn back. But that's just an assumption and the reason why he turned back is lost to history.
Since we're talking about the Titanic, do you how many of the 3rd Class citizens died? The ones left to fend for themselves below decks? 75%. Only the crew lost a larger percentage and that was 76%. Do you recall Captain Stanley Lord of the SS Californian and his horrific botch job recognizing distress calls when informed of them by his Master at the helm? Both the US and British inquiries had scathing reports aimed at Stanley Lord and his inaction on that night which cost people their lives. The Californian, not the Carpathia should have been the first boat on the scene as they had been in contact and were closer to the Titanic.
I find it ironic you chose to illustrate leadership with an example of some of the worst leadership in the history of maritime disasters. Yes, Harold Lowe sticks out as an absolute hero, but both the U.S. and British Inquires agreed that there was a distinct lack of leadership and organization shown during the alerting and evacuation process of the passengers by the crew of the Titanic in addition to the royal screw up by the Californian cost lives.
It may be shitty to make decisions as a leader, but when you make a shitty decision, people can and will judge you for it. Right or wrong.
And just to be crystal clear: I do not care who was with Hope at the time. Regardless of who it was, if they acted in the exact way Angel did, they get this reaction from me. It just so happened to be Angel. And this is arguably the fourth time he's done something like this. Seems to be a pattern is all I'm saying.
Will Angel ever be a true leader in the Tower?
He's a pretty good Beta[besides obviously terrible decisions, he handles instructions well and can figure out problems on a small scale well]. Can we leave it at that? Why does everyone have to be a leader?
Too many chefs in the kitchen isn't going to make the spoiled carrots taste any better.
Pegs would be a better leader
Maybe it's time to go with something a little more democratic. The guys have essentially been AWOL for a long while now so it's kinda hard to justify one person being in charge. The more power any one person seems to get the more of a jerk they become anyway. We saw it with Burt and (in my opinion) we saw it with Michael.
To me Angel during the MRE mission was some of the best leadership of the series out of all the characters. The chips were down and he came through. It was almost a coming-of-age story and I was hoping we were going to see a whole new Angel after that. Unfortunately he's back to his old self.
To throw my two cents into this as far as Angel not saying anything to Hope and just going to check the alarm, In the Military you are trained to spring into action and not give amplifying instructions to those around you as to what or why you are doing what you are doing. You are used to everyone around you doing the same and or knowing what to do if something goes down and often forget when you’re around civilians that they are not trained as you were. You cannot fault the man for falling back on his training in a situation such as this; it’s why the Military drills and trains as much as we do. So when the shit hits the fan you don’t think you just react or as we call it muscle memory. Now something they should have done when first setting up the rules of The Tower was also setting up some PRP (pre response plans) for different situations, i.e. zombies are attacking everyone man’s there battle stations, Internal intruder alarms goes off everyone freezes on station and a group of pre-approved people meet somewhere and sweep the building from room to room. I understand that this wouldn’t be perfect and they would have to change and adapted there TTP (tactics, techniques, and procedures) as times goes on or as situations predict such as the Mallers attacking. Not to get to far off subject and not to climb to high up on my soap box but this boils down into a lack of better planning from the get go. No one is perfect but honestly in my opinion as an Officer in the Military Angel has failed as a leader and as a senior enlisted noncommissioned officer Michael has failed the group as a leader as well. For the most part a good senior noncom is worth 3 or 4 JO’s but in this case it doesn’t seem that either are doing a very good job. I guess for now we have to stick with the lesser of the two evils and hope that Michael can remember what it is to be a good leader and lead people!
As an officer Angle has gone through several classes (4 years’ worth) on leadership and is said to be fresh out of OCS when all this went down. He is 24 which leads me to believe his is around a 02 or possible 03 (Army officer advance at different rates than other branches). He shouldn't need to have the chips be down before he steps up and takes charge of the situation; this shouldn't be a coming of age story because it means he can't lead under any and all circumstances. That just means the tax payers wasted money on his training because he doesn't have the ability to lead in him. Some men are born to lead other are born to follow, he clearly is a follower. Not saying it's a bad thing because we can't have all leaders otherwise nothing would get done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan
It's so nice to see fresh faces in the discussion. Welcome to hell gentlemen! ;)
If this is Hell why am I not in charge yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
I agree. Angel's deferential to a fault. He can't seem to handle any big problems when Michael's not around. Angel's also really bad at being proactive (rather than reactive) and dealing with people issues. A good recent example of that is when he just ignored Riley being boozed up because she gave him some lip service. When someone's got problems big enough to get slurring drunk in the middle of the day during the zombie apocalypse it's a situation you really shouldn't ignore, triply so when they're (at the very least) a combat buddy you went through the hell of zombie ground zero at the arena with. With that kind of attitude it's lucky he didn't get shipped out. Half his squad could be walking around with PTSD and he'd be oblivious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew227598
That being said, we can argue about the way Angel should act or just deal with the way he does act. Two big things he has going for him is he tends to make logically sound (if not always people friendly) decisions and Angel does seek advice rather than blindly dictate like Michael and especially Burt tend to do.
Very good point, I guess I wont be happy until they write me into the story so I can step up and take charge lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryan
Drew Welcome aboard!Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew227598
Ok, so you did say you didn't fault Angel for "falling back on his training" by rushing to the alarm, but go on to say that they should have set up PRP (a moment of digression.. PRP means something different in the AF).
You also say that:
"Now something they should have done when first setting up the rules of The Tower was also setting up some PRP (pre response plans) for different situations, i.e. zombies are attacking everyone man’s there battle stations, Internal intruder alarms goes off everyone freezes on station and a group of pre-approved people meet somewhere and sweep the building from room to room."
I agree with that statement, planning should have been done. However...
isn't the very definition and reason for Training is to keep you from Reacting? Isn't it supposed allow you to "Respond" instead? This is how I read the above quote. So even if they didn't set up a response plan, it would have been personally internalized due to years of training right?
By the way.. join us at the Veterans group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew227598
Drew,
Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't Officer Candidate School only run for a year and some change? You're either prior enlisted or a civilian with a college degree already in hand right?
Crowbar out!