Does Kalani get a pass?

What does "give him a pass" mean? Forgive him? Like him? Understand him? Think he was correct?

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Originally Posted by Osiris

You've made this comparison of your own volition. My response poses a diametrically opposed viewpoint and suddenly the two are mutually exclusive? Your lack of ability to argue a point is beyond amazing. I've explained the this adequately, considering your 'argument' is based entirely on one point: omniscience. It is, therefore invalid.

*Drops the mic. Walks away*

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Bullshit. Ray didn't make the comparison. I did, and if you'll notice, we are not the same person. Yes, I agree that Ray's argumentative abilities are lacking, and he seems to be using 'mutually exclusive' in the wrong way. It's not that the ideas are mutually exclusive, they're just not the same. *He's arguing badly, but alas, he isn't me. I'm glad you dropped the mic and walked away, if that's the level of attention you're willing to pay to this argument. If you don't care, go home.

Now that we've gotten that clarification out of the way, on to my main point:

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Originally Posted by Osiris

I'll grant that while we--as outsiders looking in--may have known that Hannah was going to end up taking a dirt nap, it wouldn't have been possible for Kalani to ascertain that he had lost her for good. *Even if the thought had crossed his mind, the thought of getting her back trumps all else. *I think it's necessary to take knowledge through stunted omniscience out of the equation and look at it from a far more limited perspective: Dad's. *If you do that, it's impossible to think you could simply write her off as dead and not bother following the kidnapper's demands to get her back. *

Also, the only person that Kalani technically murdered was Pippin, the guy there to flip the tables on Kalani, sell him out and take over the mission. *The rest is collateral damage. *That said, I flip your last statement. *Would you give a pass to someone who murdered one piece of shit and saved hundreds of lives afterwards?*

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I disagree. If Kalani wanted his daughter back, even if he was inexcusably stupid, and he thought she was still alive, he should have seen that setting up the Mallers was his best bet, and it would've been a great option if he had the chance with the first group.

Kalani killed the others just as much as someone who hires an assassin killed the target of the assassination. He didn't pull the trigger, but he intentionally got them killed.*

For your reversal of my hypothetical scenario, no. I don't give that person a pass. Murder (except with extremely rare extenuating circumstances) is a really shitty thing to do. Ethically, the life-saving is wholly unrelated to the murder. They are separate and don't cancel out, just as a matter particle and an antimatter particle (or a million antimatter particles, for that matter) don't annihilate each other when they are separated by any distance. When they collide, though, it's a different story. If, for example, you kill someone to save your own life, the matter and antimatter (unethical and ethical) collide and annihilate, leaving you with a 'pass.' Unless, of course, there's another way that would be readily visible and feasible. Like if somebody was trying to kill you and you incapacitated them in some way, but then you beat them to death, that's not a 'pass.' If there was another way and it's infeasible that you'd see it, though, it's potentially a 'pass.'

Even if Kalani was an irredeemable idiot, he should've seen another, better way. So no, it's not a 'pass.'

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Originally Posted by shiroidenkou1994

Bullshit. Ray didn't make the comparison. I did, and if you'll notice, we are not the same person. Yes, I agree that Ray's argumentative abilities are lacking, and he seems to be using 'mutually exclusive' in the wrong way. It's not that the ideas are mutually exclusive, they're just not the same. *He's arguing badly, but alas, he isn't me. I'm glad you dropped the mic and walked away, if that's the level of attention you're willing to pay to this argument. If you don't care, go home.

Now that we've gotten that clarification out of the way, on to my main point:



I disagree. If Kalani wanted his daughter back, even if he was inexcusably stupid, and he thought she was still alive, he should have seen that setting up the Mallers was his best bet, and it would've been a great option if he had the chance with the first group.

Kalani killed the others just as much as someone who hires an assassin killed the target of the assassination. He didn't pull the trigger, but he intentionally got them killed.*

For your reversal of my hypothetical scenario, no. I don't give that person a pass. Murder (except with extremely rare extenuating circumstances) is a really shitty thing to do. Ethically, the life-saving is wholly unrelated to the murder. They are separate and don't cancel out, just as a matter particle and an antimatter particle (or a million antimatter particles, for that matter) don't annihilate each other when they are separated by any distance. When they collide, though, it's a different story. If, for example, you kill someone to save your own life, the matter and antimatter (unethical and ethical) collide and annihilate, leaving you with a 'pass.' Unless, of course, there's another way that would be readily visible and feasible. Like if somebody was trying to kill you and you incapacitated them in some way, but then you beat them to death, that's not a 'pass.' If there was another way and it's infeasible that you'd see it, though, it's potentially a 'pass.'

Even if Kalani was an irredeemable idiot, he should've seen another, better way. So no, it's not a 'pass.'

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Set up the folks that have a gun pointed at the head of his daughter. In the hopes that three trained solders (I should rate it 2.5 as Angel had no logged combat time) and a handful of untrained civilians can go and rescue her in one piece against a much larger group of better trained (and if you assume the maulers weren't trained in the use of how to shoot a gun, use a knife or bludgeon someone to death I will politely and respectfully request you remember that Eastern Bay was the prison for the worst offenders of the worst. Not your tax avoiding white collar criminal types but the sort of convicts that make anyone that they get a hold of pray for death.

I'm tired. I'll be back later

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Originally Posted by Eviebae

What does "give him a pass" mean? Forgive him? Like him? Understand him? Think he was correct?

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I took it as believe he was redeemed for his sins..

I don't think Kalani was in a position to trust anyone period. He had no obligation to people he just met over that of his daughter so I don't think he's a bad guy for manipulating those he encountered for her sake. Even if he knew the Mallers were ex-convicts and probably going to murder Hannah any way, in that position all he could do was hope that they wouldn't murder her by doing what he was asked. Maybe he thought he could do his task SO well that he would be rewarded with her life. I think it's clear once he started to see the true nature of the Mallers, he realized the gravity of his actions and sacrificed himself to rectify those deeds.

I'm not saying it isn't controversial, but he gets a pass from me.

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Originally Posted by Eviebae

What does "give him a pass" mean? Forgive him? Like him? Understand him? Think he was correct?

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I think it's kind of like... has he redeemed himself through his final actions--you know, helping Pegs learn to fly, giving the Tower a way out, and finally, taking one for the team. I could be way off on that, but that's what I read into the question. Maybe it's about a hall pass. Or a lift pass.

Personally, i do NOT think he gets a pass because when h called the mallers to the tower he did not even ask if hannah was alive, or for proof. Yes scratch could have not given proof to him but he could have tried then i would have forgiven him.

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Originally Posted by awkwardalex

Personally, i do NOT think he gets a pass because when h called the mallers to the tower he did not even ask if hannah was alive, or for proof. Yes scratch could have not given proof to him but he could have tried then i would have forgiven him.

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That does seem like a strange oversight. I'm not sure we'll ever know the reason behind that, unless of course, Kc decides to give us the skinny on it...

*crosses fingers*

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Originally Posted by awkwardalex

Personally, i do NOT think he gets a pass because when h called the mallers to the tower he did not even ask if hannah was alive, or for proof. Yes scratch could have not given proof to him but he could have tried then i would have forgiven him.

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wait, which tower? if it was his first then he was a little panicked, but had no real reason to doubt that she was still alive atm. if THE tower he did ask at the end of the transmission

Kilani

1. he made others dead as sh*t
2. he's dead as sh*t (or so i think)
3. the end

trying to determine the relative humidity of the tower or what curtains were in bill's apartment (or other random hey let's make sure all the i's are dotted adn t's are castrated stuff) is just stuff

4. i dont really care either way but i just wanted to post in the midst of all this arguing and stuff. i'll go back to finger painting now. thanks

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Originally Posted by mem

Kilani

1. he made others dead as sh*t
2. he's dead as sh*t (or so i think)
3. the end

trying to determine the relative humidity of the tower or what curtains were in bill's apartment (or other random hey let's make sure all the i's are dotted adn t's are castrated stuff) is just stuff

4. i dont really care either way but i just wanted to post in the midst of all this arguing and stuff. i'll go back to finger painting now. thanks

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I <3 you mem. Your words always brighten my day. :)

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Originally Posted by mem

Kilani

1. he made others dead as sh*t
2. he's dead as sh*t (or so i think)
3. the end

trying to determine the relative humidity of the tower or what curtains were in bill's apartment (or other random hey let's make sure all the i's are dotted adn t's are castrated stuff) is just stuff

4. i dont really care either way but i just wanted to post in the midst of all this arguing and stuff. i'll go back to finger painting now. thanks

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Did Bill's apartment have humid curtains?

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Originally Posted by Osiris

Did Bill's apartment have humid curtains?

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Yeah, right next to the Pressure Wash Sofa, and the singing Bass fish on the wall.

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Originally Posted by sailorangel59

Yeah, right next to the Pressure Wash Sofa, and the singing Bass fish on the wall.

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#ShitIDidNotKnow

i picture the curtains in bills apartment having corn on them like marge simpsons

unlike most people, i always liked kalani, but i still wouldnt give him a pass, i mean, yes i understand hed do anything to get hannah back, but dude... he could have talked to michael about it, knowing michael, hed definately at least give it more than a little thought hed probably even plan a rescue for lizzy and hannah. i dont think lizzy is pregnant, i think they have hannah still. like Kc said "...there is such a thing as hair dye."

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Originally Posted by JambaJuicer111

unlike most people, i always liked kalani, but i still wouldnt give him a pass, i mean, yes i understand hed do anything to get hannah back, but dude... he could have talked to michael about it, knowing michael, hed definately at least give it more than a little thought hed probably even plan a rescue for lizzy and hannah. i dont think lizzy is pregnant, i think they have hannah still. like Kc said "...there is such a thing as hair dye."

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I will point out that Kalani didn't really know Michael and the tower folks. They also didn't give a good show of themselves at first (lying, cheating, stealing poor command etc etc you know the drill) and by the time they did it was to late.

I remember when this thread turned.

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Originally Posted by Ray

No, they died specifically because of Kalani. HE killed every single person that has died because of the attack by the mallers. Had he not lead them there, had he not betrayed them, had he not made damn sure that they couldn't fight back they all died. Would they have died later on? Maybe. All we know is that they ARE dead because of the actions of Kalani. Yes, protect your child and all, but only a moron would think that they Mallers would hold up their end of the deal. Kalani was stupid for believing they would and because of that everything that sits now is because of him. He can never be forgiven for what he did, fighting for his daughter or not. The second they took Hanna away from him, she was as good as dead. Only an idiot (in his shoes, not anyone here) would think otherwise and his actions are the sole reason everyone that is dead or missing is gone. The only reason. Crashing the helo into the rig wasn't because of his desire to save everyone, he said that he barely tolerated everyone even after all the work they were doing to try and save as many people as they could. Kalani was looking out for himself and Hanna the whole time, no one else. Thinking he could save Hanna was complete stupidity. He saw how they treated everyone and for cripes sake they were all murders and violent criminals, how could he possibly think they would hold up their end of the deal? He saw first hand what they were capable of, Scratch was hell bent on killing every single one of the Tower residents because Pegs killed her brother in self defense. Scratch attacked innocent people and they merely defended themselves and she goes on a murderous rampage. Kalani should have known right then that Hanna was as good as dead. He was an irrational, idiotic, backstabbing moron and he deserved what he got. Good riddance to him, they were vastly better off before he showed up. Hell, they saved his life at the risk of their own at the Arena and he paid them back with betrayal. Kid or no kid, he was a dangerous idiot that got almost everyone killed while insulting them and plotting behind their backs. He justly died, but he should have suffered for it in the process.

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I couldn't agree with you more. The time to save your child is when the threat arises. In the car was his best chance. If you are being abducted in a crisis how can you make an assumption that going with the abductors is the best course of action?

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Originally Posted by trubkir

I couldn't agree with you more. The time to save your child is when the threat arises. In the car was his best chance. If you are being abducted in a crisis how can you make an assumption that going with the abductors is the best course of action?

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so you write the child off... "sorry honey but daddy missed his chance. I hope you die fast?"

Get abducted and let me know how you deal with the situation. Totally unarmed and completely unprepared to handle the situation. :hsugh:

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Originally Posted by Osiris

Get abducted and let me know how you deal with the situation. Totally unarmed and completely unprepared to handle the situation. :hsugh:

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That isn't the argument. As I understand this thread we are discussing whether Kalani gets a pass. I say no because he did nothing at the point of attack and he fully realized the gravity of the situation he had got into as evidenced by his "Awww shit". He did nothing then but sit back and let the situation get worse. If "he would do anything for his Hannah" then why did he do nothing. He is a coward and I disliked his fat, whiny, self important ass right from the time he attempted suicide in the arena.

Hmm...so crashing a plane in a city that is not your own..running for your life from a horde of undead that you see eat the people you were just flying with hop a fence even though you are not in any physical shape to do so and luckily meet a car and take that to what you see as your advantage. Then the people in the car draw down on you...and you sit there and take it..

Nothing about that reads as cowardly to me....way i see I...im in a car..and for the moment..im safe

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Originally Posted by trubkir

That isn't the argument. As I understand this thread we are discussing whether Kalani gets a pass. I say no because he did nothing at the point of attack and he fully realized the gravity of the situation he had got into as evidenced by his "Awww shit". He did nothing then but sit back and let the situation get worse. If "he would do anything for his Hannah" then why did he do nothing. He is a coward and I disliked his fat, whiny, self important ass right from the time he attempted suicide in the arena.

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Because you're new here, I'm going to extend the courtesy of not arguing this point with you as I have with anyone else willing to step into the ring. There is a lengthy thread around somewhere that covers 99% of what you could think of as far as arguments for and against. :) Welcome to the boards and enjoy your stay! :)

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Originally Posted by 7oddisdead

Hmm...so crashing a plane in a city that is not your own..running for your life from a horde of undead that you see eat the people you were just flying with hop a fence even though you are not in any physical shape to do so and luckily meet a car and take that to what you see as your advantage. Then the people in the car draw down on you...and you sit there and take it..

Nothing about that reads as cowardly to me....way i see I...im in a car..and for the moment..im safe

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^^this.










































































































SEE!? I was totally civil there!!!!

As Crash Davis says in Bull Durham "The moment is over meat". As soon as he sees that the weapon is out and that the weapon is a threat it is time for action. I don't care if Kalani is fat. I don't care if Kalani has no training. I don't care if Kalani is tired, unarmed and in a foreign environment. He is in a situation that calls for action. Instead he sits on his expansive behind, lets Scratch take him to the mall where he has absolutely no chance. Kalani then writes "I would do anything for my child." This is the contradiction I take umbrage with. If he would do anything then fight when you have the chance even if the odds are slim. I think that this lack of action shows up as guilt later as he calls Micheal, Saul and Angel "macho" and flattens the tire on the hummer on the way out the gate during the food run to the base. I digress. Later in the story line he is in the arena, and let me reiterate "I would do anything for my child", so he promptly tries to kill himself to alleviate the pain he feels for what is happening to Hannah. The worst kind of cowardice. He is still conscious enough to hear Datu's arrival and communicate with him but magically can't stay awake help dig through the wall. In my opinion he plays dead and sacrifices Samantha then again has the magical ability to wake up just in time to be rescued. Simply stated he has done nothing to earn the pass from me

I can agree to disagree

New to posting I guess. Started listening during Season 1 when the podcast was at Chapter 5 part 2 of 3

And as Kenny Rogers said

Ya gotta know when to hold em..know when to fold em..know when to walk away...etc. Given the situation in the car..i would think of the risks involved with what if I got shot...what would happen to her then?

Surprisingly...he does not get a pass from me either..love the guy..but some things can't be forgiven.

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Originally Posted by 7oddisdead

And as Kenny Rogers said

Ya gotta know when to hold em..know when to fold em..know when to walk away...etc. Given the situation in the car..i would think of the risks involved with what if I got shot...what would happen to her then?

Surprisingly...he does not get a pass from me either..love the guy..but some things can't be forgiven.

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We can Agree to disagree but kalani is human he's not a solder or superman he did what he knew how to do.

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Originally Posted by 7oddisdead

And as Kenny Rogers said

Ya gotta know when to hold em..know when to fold em..know when to walk away...etc. Given the situation in the car..i would think of the risks involved with what if I got shot...what would happen to her then?

Surprisingly...he does not get a pass from me either..love the guy..but some things can't be forgiven.

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This is my main sticking point. If he would do anything why didn't he take the risk?

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Originally Posted by trubkir

This is my main sticking point. If he would do anything why didn't he take the risk?

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Cause an unarmed untrained man vs a gun is a fool Kalani was not a fool.

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Originally Posted by yarri

Cause an unarmed untrained man vs a gun is a fool Kalani was not a fool.

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exactly

But all this is a moot point...its just opinions..we all have opinions they are bound to be different..if not this forum would be pretty damn boring

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Originally Posted by 7oddisdead

exactly

But all this is a moot point...its just opinions..we all have opinions they are bound to be different..if not this forum would be pretty damn boring

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Thank you for the voice of reason lol

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Originally Posted by trubkir

New to posting I guess. Started listening during Season 1 when the podcast was at Chapter 5 part 2 of 3

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:) Don't worry about it man. You'll get used to me.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

:) Don't worry about it man. You'll get used to me.

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I did !

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Originally Posted by Osiris

Get abducted and let me know how you deal with the situation. Totally unarmed and completely unprepared to handle the situation. :hsugh:

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Abductions are cool btw. Living in the south and at one time a trailer park. It happened all the time. Hell it was more fun talking about the abduction than all the damn tornadoes that hit the trailer park. It was more fun than getting laid at the family reunion i tell ya ! *tunes banjo*

He killed Pippin, and we should all be ever grateful for that.

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Originally Posted by VEE

He killed Pippin, and we should all be ever grateful for that.

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now you got me liking him more than I did :yay:

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Originally Posted by mem

Abductions are cool btw. Living in the south and at one time a trailer park. It happened all the time. Hell it was more fun talking about the abduction than all the damn tornadoes that hit the trailer park. It was more fun than getting laid at the family reunion i tell ya ! *tunes banjo*

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The world is ending. The rules have changed. But there is always hope. Just as we all hope (maybe all of us) who listen to this story that our favorite characters will make it out alive. Any parent holds out hope that their child who has been abducted is still alive and not buried in a shallow grave in some pedophile's backyard. As a father, who is also untrained about what to do when held and forced to do something at gun point, I understand Kalani's motives and would have done the same with that hope (however delusional) that I would get to see my child again.
If giving him a pass means forgiving him, then I give him a pass.