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Perhaps alpha was the incorrect term to use. What I meant by it was nothing more than both are very strong willed and opinionated. Despite different methods, both look after their "pack" and make decisions for their well being. I still feel that michael is better suited to the task of leading than Burt is. Burt knows it now, but from chapter 3 until 22 Burt was too stubborn to admit it.
Should burt in fact be alive, I'm interested to see how his and michael's relationship shakes out.
Interesting as always Nik. Here comes the ol' better leader.
Michael (Old)
Angel
Burt
Michael (New)
Bouncing Burt
Winged Angel
I think Michael has better charism / tactics.
Burt has far more Combat and Gunplay experience as well as Strategic Sense. Probably because of experience / rank. Gunnery Sgt Burt Scott vs Sgt Michael Cross.
I never served, nasty asthma and allergies, but I want to give a special shoutout and thank you for your service to those that are or have.
Anyway, Gunny is like company level, I think. Say, 100 to 150 people.
Just Sgt is a lot lower like Squad (8-12) or half squad / fire team (4-6)
I am sure there is someone who knows this a lot better than I do and correct it.
Burt is action. Burt will throw the first punch
Michael is reaction setting up the counter-punch.
As the salve owner said to the Gladiator School Owner in Gladiator...
Some are Good for dieing and some are good for Fighting. You, me thinks, need both.
Or something like that.
The emphasis is on the You, me thinks, need both.
I don't see either as true Alphas. They are/were Betas reluctantly put in the Alpha position. I believe that if given the chances to follow a "good" and in Michael's case, righteous Alpha they would both follow obediently. That is if Bert is still alive...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kc
Good Episode. And, as always, I'm looking forward to the next.
I want to give Kelly props for stepping up in this episode. No whining, no venting, took the initiative by setting up security on the high ground, and held the fort during Michael's (well-deserved and overdue) meltdown. She's come a long way! I can't help wondering where her character is going--group leader? remorseless zombie hunter? the next fatality, since she's completed her story arc?
These were my thoughts exactly when Burt went AWOL in part 1. Now, with still no update on Burt (or Shirley) after part 2, KC has me frothing at the mouth on his status. But that's okay. I expect a big timer in part 3, when Burt says..."WTF...where am it, and where the hell is Shirley?". I will be happy with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by litmaster
For now though, I can live through everyone else's issues, including Saul & Victor's Abbott & Costello routine (the only question being: are they both alpha males or are they both just suffering from PMI?). And then there is Michael. His decision to okay a head-trauma'd Riley run off and take a smoke break then stopping a consoling Pegs (Riley's best and maybe only remaining friend) to "leave her be." The soap continues as Michael tells Saul's mom that both he and Liz were both dead with the proclaimation that "there is no one still alive back there" during his self-pity attack. job. Maybe IT IS the night goggles, Michael, take them off.
Oh boy...you are right litmaster...I can't wait for Burt to get back in action. He will get himself into the mallers arsenal real soon. He probably has a copy of the Locked and Loaded inventory sheet in his back pocket and knows what is missing.
I can see the burt beta qualities, and also in new mopey-michael. But remember when michael first relinquished control he was mad that he lost whatever he had going and he was done there. That screams alpha personality to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tandem25
But you are right in saying neither is a true alpha. Michael is far closer.
My theory. Maybe WA's first suicide, by Riley. Just a crazy idea. Great episode!
So here's a holy shit wtf is wrong with us moments......
Did anyone look at the artwork for part 2? Anyone else see the big white blob of Behemoth??!! and apologies if it got mentioned in the chatbox right after.....you didn't post it in here....so it doesn't count! :p
I think the depiction by the artist is close to the idea I was thinking of all along... Mr. Hyde from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Really really big in the torso, smallish head...and we can't really see its legs.
Here's a Fort Irwin story that has a coyote in it for youze guys. We were out on the machine gun range testing out our weapons, and we had a coyote come up on our targets while we were shooting. Of course, we didn't know it until we walked down the firing lanes to check our targets for hits and misses and that's when we came up on the coyote body. So I'd say that coyotes in the Death Valley area are pretty gutsy when it comes to people. (I might have relayed this story before on this board before, but with more details. I can't remember; I'm getting too old these days.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
I'll weigh in on the alpha dog issue a little bit. Saul and Victor are not alphas, they are doers. Neither one is a leader, they are the guys that get stuff done. Gunhands, action guys, whatever you want to call it. That I think is one of the reasons they are so frustrated. These are not the guys who have big picture plan or strategy. In the moment tactics, they can create and adapt to but they don't have much forethought. Saul's recklessness is because he doesn't think things through, he just goes to the next step because it is all he can see. Victor is used to be a loyal hound, following orders. They are both stubborn and think for themselves, because being considered a mindless follower is what these guys hate most.
Michael is pretty close to an alpha once he establishes himself. In Chapter 2, Pegs and Riley begin to look to Michael as the leader right away without being told who is in charge. He needs to correct them that Angel is the officer. Once Michael returns from the colony everyone naturally looks to him as the leader. The second that Michael hears about Lizzie being kicked out, he falls back into leader mode very naturally. But Michael does have weaknesses and confidence issues, keeping him from being a perfect alpha. However it does make him a complex and interesting character.
Burt falls in strange place in between doer and leader. He would be happy to be a doer, but when he thinks he has a better idea he will voice it. Unfortunately this happens at every meeting. I think Burt's problem, which he states is that he is used to military leadership. Marines he can lead, but this is a group of civilians and they function different. It is VERY different to lead those two mindsets of people. Also Burt had to lead back in Vietnam, so he may be a little rusty. Plus his long funk after Shirley's death hasn't done much for Burt's people skills. He tells Saul that he essentially sat around watching movies for months. I don't think leadership abilities, and people skills came back as easily as sharpshooting
I think the bar for "alpha" is being set insanely high here. Why is it so hard to take Burt and Michael as alphas?Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
Also, Another reason that Michael was seen as the "Leader" early on is because at the time, Angel was not an Alpha. He was more a "Maybe there's another way." Now he's a "Maybe we should just kill them?" But he's still not an Alpha. If you say Saul and that are Beta's then Angel is Beta and a half.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikepaw
I agree. Michael is definitely an Alpha by the way of his personality and expertise, same as Burt. But the traits in their personalities that make them Alphas are different, Michael has charisma while burt's just intimidating. The rest would follow either one, 'cause they are the big guys, top dogs, bosses etc.7Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
Now, back to the actual topic. I liked this episode a lot, it had a lot more going for it than the first episode, which was kind of lackluster in my opinion. I always felt that KC wouldn't let them arrive at Fort Irwin, because that'd give the group access to an insane amount of resources.
Unless something exciting would happen (and knowing KC...), like:
1) The military is still in control of Fort Irwin and presses Michael into service. The rest are allowed to stay on the base, but their movements are restricted. The military's not going to mount a rescue op for a few unimportant civvies and the group will have to plan an escape. Maybe they'll bring along Angel's second cousin (since family reunions seem to be a theme in WA).
2) The military is still in control of Fort Irwin, but has gone renegade (think 28 Days Later). They imprison the group, have evil plans for them and possibly have an alliancce with either Durai or the Colony. The whole shebang is orchestrated by Angel's evil twin brother!
3) The fort is overrun by zombies and the group has to decide wether to risk it or leave. They decide to risk it because of the vast opportunities if they win and in the ensuing liberation of the base, something goes off and there's a huge explosion, destroying most of the heavy armamament. Still, there's a lot intact and the group starts to plan the rescue of their friends in the city. Also, Angel's clone is somehow involved
First of all, Michael is obviously alpha male HUMAN, in for example a wolf pack, the alpha male is the biggest baddest male, with humans its not quite like that. The fact that Michael became leader without even realising at first (if you remember the scene from early in the show where Angel has to point this out to him) makes him more of an alpha male than Marcus who couldn't inspire confidemnce in his men and so had to Bull shit his way to the top.
Any way, as Luna said back to the topic.
"Chapter 25 Inadequate Length" as I like to call it is really starting to grow on it. After the massive events of season two's finale its nice to take a breath and make time for some serious charecter development thats NOT just killing them off. The Saul and Vic partnership is a nice little combo although they both seem to bring out a tendency to whine in each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luna Guardian
Ok minus the Angel parts which I'm awarding you the tinfoil hat for the rest of the post was quite logical and all valid points that could happen. Nicely done and I smacked you with the rep wand for it.
Didnt Burt decide he didnt like leading? still an Alpha but the Alpha doesnt always say "Here everyone let's organize, classify and analyze." Burt is more of a "hey look something undead" POW Move on.
I wasnt getting the Michael bummed and sad vibe for a bit and it was annoying me. Suddenly i realized that everyting heaped on his shoulders had finally gotten to him after all this time. It was then that i remembered that the writer of this Podcast is a genius and quit questioning what was going on.
Coyotes are typically trying to kill the roadrunner or placing an order with the ACME corporation for new gear to use in killing the aforementioned road runner. Beep Beep
I'm curious as to why Michael is developing stronger bonds with his comrades in the Z-War as apposed to those soldiers he fought along side with in the service, his words not my interpretation. Is it because when he served they followed strict military guidelines whereas here he can spend 24-7 with these people, share in their drama, laughter, and sorrow?
Anyone with military service want to chime in and provide some insight as to how Michael's time spent with the Tower members could differ from that of his time spent with his soldiers in such a way that he'd form closer bonds with these people?
[edit/after thought]
I also had a funny moment when listening to 25-2 again when Michael is saying that no one could have survived. I picture him looking off to the West with teary eyes, meanwhile Saul is back in L.A. saying to Victor "They're not coming back" looking to the East with teary eyes. Then do a split screen of Michael and Saul, both teary eyed... lol, I love it.
yeah it's a really strange thing, soldiers often comment about the feeling of commraderie they feel in the service being deeper than what they feel with their siblings and whatnot. it might have something to do with him being in military intelligence as opposed to combat arms, since those in combat arms seem to feel it strongest. there is something about relying on someone else to watch your back to keep you from dying that forms this bond. the difference here might be in the amount of action he's seeing with these people. similar things were seen during world war II, soldiers that went through D-Day had a certain bond that the replacements lacked. even soldiers that went through D-Day and were then injured later and missed some other significant event found that they were "out of the loop" so to speak.
Interesting points to ponder:
-Riley was writing in her journal. She asked for the day's date. Perhaps a letter of apology for ditching, her feelings, ...a suicide note? (the last is not likely imo)
-Riley knew that the corn and grain were rotting. Did she check the farm on her own?
-Should we have caught the fact that Riley wasn't really going for a smoke? Last I recall she gave them up when Lizzie was booted from the building (Riley was out having a smoke at the time and swore them off afterwards).
We must remember, that as in real life it is days and days of mundane punctuated with really important things that shape the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventureless_Hero
Chopper 1 is secured by Burt and Saul
Riley tells Angel she is not smoking and storms off.
a few hours later Pippin is shot.
Kalani and datu on their way to Chopper 1.
A few hours later, Saul runs away, they secure Chopper 2
Very soon after Saul comes back
They form the Free Lizzy assault squad
Tower 2 gets hit.
They return to Tower, fly away and land.
Although it has been months and months for us, Season 2 only covers about a week with a lot of it in a 48 hour span.
Yes, and that is kind of the nature of the beast when it comes to pacing and story details: generally, the longer the time span of the story, the slower the pace (thus less details and more exposition). Conversely, less time = quicker pace and more details and action, although the trade-off with that is that it's difficult to develop characters within such a short time span.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur LaMarche
I think Kc has done a good job of working characterization into the action, so that we don't get too many long scenes with nothing happening but a long conversation between characters, and on the other hand he doesn't go for just action-action-action like some stupid Action-hero movie. Even Burt, for all his bad-assness, still comes off as human and believable, and I think we can see that most of his bravado is just a cover up for some deep-seated fear and inadequcies (this doesn't, however, stop me from enjoying it whenever he busts a cap in some zombie's ass :cool:).
Just thinkin' like a writer for a bit, there.
My theory (and having no military xp its just that) is that its because they're all thats left. In the military a soldier dies and is replaced soon-ish (citation needed) , where as these few people are IT, They die, no FNG to replace them. Just another excuse for Datu to put on the water works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventureless_Hero
I agree that Michael is an alpha. I think Burt used to be an alpha, but is now a beta. He pounded his chest and waved some branches around but in the end realized he wasn't up to it.
I can't remember if it was chimps or gorillas, but a documentary I saw showed an alpha being defeated by a younger one. They said that the old alpha often became the new alpha's beta. Sort of second in command and someone who had their back. After Burt handed the reins back to Michael, it was like they'd finally sorted their places in the hierarchy.
There are a lot of studies out there about what characterizes a socially dominant human. Being decisive, sure of yourself and your decisions (which is one reason that sociopaths sometimes make it into these positions). In small tribes though, it's supposed to be a lot more about consensus building. Moving unilaterally gets you booted.
And that's why Burt and Angel fight whenever they talk.. Like in Chapter 21. Angel say's he in charge and Burt says, No I am... Rawr.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eviebae
All this "alpha" talk is slightly annoying. Could we not have a separate "who is the alpha" thread and keep this one for actual Chapter 25 part 2 discussions??
We are discussing the progressions of Michael as a Alpha and how he displays them in Chapter 25 part 2. It is on track. However I agree. Let's move this somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeKay86
I know what you mean but most of the thread became all about alphas lolQuote:
Originally Posted by daredevil
Been wondering why they did not check out the farm house? Maybe part 3. I bet Riley is in there cooking an old fashioned country breakfast. Whether Riley committed suicide or not, I expect some major losses this season. Kalani and tommy were minor in my opinion. With only season 3 & 4 left, there has gotta be at least one big one this season. Right? Damn, I am more passionate about this then any entertainment I have ever partaken in.
Woh dude. Suicide? Where'd you get that from? Sure Riley's sad and all but she isn't suicidal.... I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamPaul
Reason being they were attempting to get the helicopter fixed before the night fall. That's why they didn't check the house. They weren't planning on being there long enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamPaul
And as for the Episode thread meandering......yeah......they kinda do that.
Riley isn't suicidal because she won't give up Angel and Lizzie for dead. Like Saul, Riley has to go and see their cold, still body before she will accept their fate. Riley is far more likely to try to go back to LA to find those she loves than give up and kill herself. To this point she has not shown a quitter personality, instead being second only to Saul in determination to get Lizzie back. To go see what at least happened to Angel will double her drive to go back to LA
If she is not suicidal, she has got to be SEVERELY depressed. We know she is a heavy drinker, and if she is the mole, with all that went down, she may just want to end it all. It is just hard to believe that someone has not considered suicide yet after all that has happened. If she decided to go back to LA, can you imagine the travel that is gonna have to take place, let alone what new creatures may be out there. Cannot wait for part 3!
So I've listened to part two several times now between myself and with my family, and I still chuckle when I hear Kelly talk about the sound a chopper makes if no one is around. Just thought I'd mentioned that I get replay value out of this episode.
.....
Is everyone 100% sure that they shot a coyote and not Riley?
I can see how you could get the two of them mixed up, but yes. 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by tribe-xx
They did mention they missed the coyote.
I just remembered that when I was unable to post.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamPaul
I don't think KC would do another friendly fire incident, but you never know. He could make it good.