Is Lizzy pregnant or infected?

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Originally Posted by kafu288

That size bullet would have gone straight through Saul unless it went through something first. It went through Tommy first. Tommy's blood splattered all over Saul and into the wound. So there's that covered.

I don't remember hearing them saying that they cleaned the blood of him so Tommy's blood could have been on Saul and eventually entered him. Saul was knocked out for a long time. I think you need to be concious to start turning. Now that Saul is concious again I think he will start turning. Quite slowly of cause

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Listen to the episode again. Burt missed and hit Saul. Saul comments before he passes out "I guess your not that good'a shot after all."
Please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong on that.

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Originally Posted by Luna Guardian

Unless the bullet is faulty. It sometimes happens that there's a fault in the bullet and that causes it to behave in ways that you wouldn't expect.

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Luna,

What do you mean by a "Faulty" bullet?

Here's the odd thing, the SFX make it sound like Burt took two shots. (I don't know why I didn't notice that before)
Burt mentions his alcohol consumption may have been to blame, but later states he never misses.

We also have never heard that zombies can't turn while unconscious. Just because we haven't heard it, doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Also, Burt was NOT using Shirley when he shot Saul. Smaller caliber handguns do not always have exit wounds. It could have caught on his clavicle.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Luna,

What do you mean by a "Faulty" bullet?

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She probably means something like a double fed bullet.

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Originally Posted by yarri

Saul's infection was most likely due to the barbaric nature of the surgery they preformed on him to remove the bullet. I still STILL cringe when I listen to that part.. argh! Kc's use of descriptive terminology makes me shudder. Its a section of the whole story that as a nurse scares me. I learned the hard way about the rounds exiting the gun. When you are told not to pick up spent shell casings and you do and it leaves blisters.. Imagine what the round exiting the casing is like. I verified it as well.

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Yarri,

I've been hit by spent shell casing a LOT of times and from a good number of different weapons. Not one of them tickles. LOL.

Ok, lets say this happened:
They used Saul's knife as a scalpel substitute. What if Saul's attempt to clean said knife weren't as good as he thought? What if bleach were the only way to kill whatever was left on the blade or embedded in the hilt?
Saul is now immune, but is now a carrier. He and Lizzy swap spit...or more and now guess what?

I don't believe that, but I'm putting it out there because it's more plausible than the gun shot theory in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Yarri,

I've been hit by spent shell casing a LOT of times and from a good number of different weapons. Not one of them tickles. LOL.

Ok, lets say this happened:
They used Saul's knife as a scalpel substitute. What if Saul's attempt to clean said knife weren't as good as he thought? What if bleach were the only way to kill whatever was left on the blade or embedded in the hilt?
Saul is now immune, but is now a carrier. He and Lizzy swap spit...or more and now guess what?

I don't believe that, but I'm putting it out there because it's more plausible than the gun shot theory in my eyes.

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Are you discounting Tommy being shot and the blood splatter getting into Saul? Or are you just saying you don't believe the bullet carried the virus?

In order for Saul to have been shot and have the wound be under his collar bone, Saul would have to be facing Burt with Tommy between them (and Tommy had his back to Burt). There are two shots fired as j0be pointed out. So there are a few ways this sequence could have gone down:

• Shot 1 hits Tommy and goes through him and into Saul, the blood splatter gets near or into Saul's wound. Shot 2 could go anywhere at this point in this scenario and it wouldn't matter.
• Shot 1 hits Saul, and shot 2 hits Tommy and any resulting blood splatter could get near or into Saul's wound.
• Neither shot hits Tommy who plays possum knowing he's being shot at. One hits Saul, and the others misses both entirely.
• Shot 1 hits Tommy but no exit wound, so the second shot hitting Saul results in no contact with Tommy's blood.

I think that's about it in terms of scenarios that result from two shots one of which has to hit Saul. The hallways don't seem to be capable of producing a ricochet so that idea is eliminated too.

The biggest issue of all though: Do you believe Burt misses at close range even when drunk? Remember, he took out three or four Mallers at close range, has picked off a couple at a distance during this fight. Is it possible? Sure it is. But I'm hanging my hat on what I described as scenario #1 I listed above.

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Originally Posted by j0be

She probably means something like a double fed bullet.

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Not really. If it were double fed it would have been mentioned afterwards. I meant that if the bullet was malformed in a way that decreased its penetration capabilities or if it had less gunpowder than it should have.

Also, I don't think it was proven that Burt missed entirely. Saul's comment might've been his typical quip. Burt's shot may have passed through Tommy and hit Saul. The end result would be approximately the same, Saul being hit, as if Burt had missed Tommy and hit Saul

I wouldn't pay that much attention to Saul saying "I guess your not that good of a shot after all" if your trying to use that line to say Burt couldn't have shot Tommy. Burt may have put a bullet into both of them or shot through Tommy to hit Saul. As for the gun used, I don't remember the exact sequence of events detail for detail right now but I'm pretty sure I remember those shots sounding like they came from Shirley. Correct me if I'm wrong. I also seem to remember Burt saying that the bullet should have gone right through Saul which is why he thought that it went through Tommy first. So yeah, I'd say that bullet would have gone through Tommy to hit Saul. Also handgun bullets can go through one person to hit another. I don't know much about guns, in fact I know nothing other than AK47> Everything, but I saw teh end of Die Hard 4 I saw Bruce Willis fire a bullet through his shoulder to kill the bad guy

My first instinct while listening was that Lizzy's pregnant. I'll stick with that. I may eat my words but... meh.

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Originally Posted by kafu288

I remember those shots sounding like they came from Shirley. Correct me if I'm wrong. I also seem to remember Burt saying that the bullet should have gone right through Saul which is why he thought that it went through Tommy first. So yeah, I'd say that bullet would have gone through Tommy to hit Saul. Also handgun bullets can go through one person to hit another. I don't know much about guns, in fact I know nothing other than AK47> Everything, but I saw teh end of Die Hard 4 I saw Bruce Willis fire a bullet through his shoulder to kill the bad guy

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I am here to correct you (But don't worry, I made the same mistake at one time as well). Burt was out of Shirley rounds at the time he shot Saul.

Penetration power of a bullet is determined by a lot of factors: muzzle velocity, distance, medium the bullet is traveling through, objects it comes in contact with etc etc. So it's possible to put a bullet through Tommy into Saul, but it really depends on where Tommy got shot.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I am here to correct you (But don't worry, I made the same mistake at one time as well). Burt was out of Shirley rounds at the time he shot Saul.

Penetration power of a bullet is determined by a lot of factors: muzzle velocity, distance, medium the bullet is traveling through, objects it comes in contact with etc etc. So it's possible to put a bullet through Tommy into Saul, but it really depends on where Tommy got shot.

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Burt also says afterwards that Saul was lucky he didn't have any Shirley rounds left, that wouldnt have blown half his shoulder away. and the Saul says oh great I'm glad u didn't have a bigger gun to shoot me with.

My first instinct while listening was that Lizzy's pregnant. With what I don't know, but pregnant none the less. I'll stick with that.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Are you discounting Tommy being shot and the blood splatter getting into Saul? Or are you just saying you don't believe the bullet carried the virus?

In order for Saul to have been shot and have the wound be under his collar bone, Saul would have to be facing Burt with Tommy between them (and Tommy had his back to Burt). There are two shots fired as j0be pointed out. So there are a few ways this sequence could have gone down:

• Shot 1 hits Tommy and goes through him and into Saul, the blood splatter gets near or into Saul's wound. Shot 2 could go anywhere at this point in this scenario and it wouldn't matter.
• Shot 1 hits Saul, and shot 2 hits Tommy and any resulting blood splatter could get near or into Saul's wound.
• Neither shot hits Tommy who plays possum knowing he's being shot at. One hits Saul, and the others misses both entirely.
• Shot 1 hits Tommy but no exit wound, so the second shot hitting Saul results in no contact with Tommy's blood.

I think that's about it in terms of scenarios that result from two shots one of which has to hit Saul. The hallways don't seem to be capable of producing a ricochet so that idea is eliminated too.

The biggest issue of all though: Do you believe Burt misses at close range even when drunk? Remember, he took out three or four Mallers at close range, has picked off a couple at a distance during this fight. Is it possible? Sure it is. But I'm hanging my hat on what I described as scenario #1 I listed above.

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Way to think that out man!

Yarri was discounting the virus being transmitted IF it was a "Through and Through" due to the heat (even though a shell casing isn't what enters the body) I was discounting the "TaT" all together.

I'm still sticking with one hit one miss theory then. IF Burt hit Tommy, then it wasn't a good hit because he got up and died later (fall, wound or fire???). I'm going to put great stock into Saul's line about Burt's marksmanship and also in KC's writing. I don't think the line was there if Saul was the victim of a "through and through."
What I do know about ballistics is that there are tons of factors that come into play and the most important is type round used. It'd actually be a freak accident for a "TaT" to maintain enough velocity to do damage to 2 bodies. Possible? sure. Probable? hmm...

Do I belive Burt missed at close range even though he hit other targets? Sure do. sure do, sure do!
It's one thing to shoot at people you really WANT to hit, but Tommy was a kid and he was one of them. That may have contributed to Burt's losing his "Zen" focus for that split second. Hench why he needed 2 shot and Tommy was already moving by the time the second one came.
I'm not even going to go into the possibility that Burt could have been more intoxicated at that moment than he was minutes before.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

F Burt hit Tommy, then it wasn't a good hit because he got up and died later (fall, wound or fire???)

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Tommy was zombified at the time. It means that the hit wasn't a headshot, but doesn't exclude any other "good hit". These critters can fight through single shots from rifles, a 9mm might not kill them

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Yarri,

I've been hit by spent shell casing a LOT of times and from a good number of different weapons. Not one of them tickles. LOL.

Ok, lets say this happened:
They used Saul's knife as a scalpel substitute. What if Saul's attempt to clean said knife weren't as good as he thought? What if bleach were the only way to kill whatever was left on the blade or embedded in the hilt?
Saul is now immune, but is now a carrier. He and Lizzy swap spit...or more and now guess what?

I don't believe that, but I'm putting it out there because it's more plausible than the gun shot theory in my eyes.

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Ok I will jump on your band wagon for the moment :)

First point :The way a virus is used to immunize someone is its weakened or killed either of these two states will trigger a response from the immune system. He could be immune other then a carrier. To be immunized doesn't mean your a carrier see second point.
Second point: To be a carrier he would have to be infected with the Z virus survive it. I don t see point 2 being realistic as no one survives the Z virus

Third point : If he is immune and he and Lizzie swapped spit and other more interesting genetic materials the resulting offspring would have a 50/50 shot at being immune.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Way to think that out man!

Yarri was discounting the virus being transmitted IF it was a "Through and Through" due to the heat (even though a shell casing isn't what enters the body) I was discounting the "TaT" all together.




I'm still sticking with one hit one miss theory then. IF Burt hit Tommy, then it wasn't a good hit because he got up and died later (fall, wound or fire???). I'm going to put great stock into Saul's line about Burt's marksmanship and also in KC's writing. I don't think the line was there if Saul was the victim of a "through and through."
What I do know about ballistics is that there are tons of factors that come into play and the most important is type round used. It'd actually be a freak accident for a "TaT" to maintain enough velocity to do damage to 2 bodies. Possible? sure. Probable? hmm...

Do I belive Burt missed at close range even though he hit other targets? Sure do. sure do, sure do!
It's one thing to shoot at people you really WANT to hit, but Tommy was a kid and he was one of them. That may have contributed to Burt's losing his "Zen" focus for that split second. Hench why he needed 2 shot and Tommy was already moving by the time the second one came.
I'm not even going to go into the possibility that Burt could have been more intoxicated at that moment than he was minutes before.

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Never discounted the lead at all. I was talking about if the shell casing was hot enough to burn then what pray tell was the lead like? It sure as heck wasn't cool to the touch it was Red hot! which would be good enough to vaperize a coating of blood. I used the shell casing as an analogy on why I believe that the lead was hot enough to vaporize the virus that might have been on the bullet. Sorry I wasn't clear enough

My theory as it stands.. Saul has luck.. Saul has the luck of the gods.. Saul Tink is the luckiest bastard alive. Its part of his character. Burt rarely misses even when drunk. He shot Tommy it was a glancing flesh wound.. It resulting little bundle of misshapen red hot sizzling lead hit Saul and penetrated under the subclavian artery. (which is why it bled like a stuck pig) It was malformed when it w as removed it was stated after surgery that it was oddly shaped either a miss fire or it hit someone else first as in Tommy jr zombie wanna be. Saul did get hit with Tommy's blood but here is where his luck comes in.. It got him in the face but missed his mucosa membrane and missed his wound. The skin gentleman is the body' s first and best defense against invaders. It's one of the first lessons a nurse is taught.. wash your hands and keep the skin smooth and supple.

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Originally Posted by yarri

Ok I will jump on your band wagon for the moment :)

First point :The way a virus is used to immunize someone is its weakened or killed either of these two states will trigger a response from the immune system. He could be immune other then a carrier. To be immunized doesn't mean your a carrier see second point.
Second point: To be a carrier he would have to be infected with the Z virus survive it. I don t see point 2 being realistic as no one survives the Z virus

Third point : If he is immune and he and Lizzie swapped spit and other more interesting genetic materials the resulting offspring would have a 50/50 shot at being immune.

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Yah! What she just...said!

If anyone wants me to go into natural immunity I will but that is a lot rarer.

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Originally Posted by yarri

Never discounted the lead at all. I was talking about if the shell casing was hot enough to burn then what pray tell was the lead like? It sure as heck wasn't cool to the touch it was Red hot! which would be good enough to vaperize a coating of blood. I used the shell casing as an analogy on why I believe that the lead was hot enough to vaporize the virus that might have been on the bullet. Sorry I wasn't clear enough

My theory as it stands.. Saul has luck.. Saul has the luck of the gods.. Saul Tink is the luckiest bastard alive. Its part of his character. Burt rarely misses even when drunk. He shot Tommy it was a glancing flesh wound.. It resulting little bundle of misshapen red hot sizzling lead hit Saul and penetrated under the subclavian artery. (which is why it bled like a stuck pig) It was malformed when it w as removed it was stated after surgery that it was oddly shaped either a miss fire or it hit someone else first as in Tommy jr zombie wanna be. Saul did get hit with Tommy's blood but here is where his luck comes in.. It got him in the face but missed his mucosa membrane and missed his wound. The skin gentleman is the body' s first and best defense against invaders. It's one of the first lessons a nurse is taught.. wash your hands and keep the skin smooth and supple.

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Ok... I'll buy that for a dollar!
I still believe Burt missed with one of his shots, but I'll defer to Yarri's theory on this.. because she's cool like that. Really though, that was a good one Yarri. I do know that rounds fragment or flatten when hitting a body. HP vs SJ have different penetration depths, so the one in Saul could have been one with just his name on it.
I'm going to listen to the episode yet again to see what he was shooting and what rounds (if they say).

I believe Lizzy is infected. Here's why: when Saul and burt entered the furniture store Saul remarked how bad it smelled. Now it being a furniture store there shouldn't be anything in there to rot. Also none of the mallers said anything about it smelling bad. So what changed lizzy threw up all over the place. Normal puke isn't going to stink up the whole store. But if her insides were slowly rotting? We all know the zombies have a horrible smell. Just throwing it out there

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Originally Posted by blue rage

I believe Lizzy is infected. Here's why: when Saul and burt entered the furniture store Saul remarked how bad it smelled. Now it being a furniture store there shouldn't be anything in there to rot. Also none of the mallers said anything about it smelling bad. So what changed lizzy threw up all over the place. Normal puke isn't going to stink up the whole store. But if her insides were slowly rotting? We all know the zombies have a horrible smell. Just throwing it out there

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I like the thought, but I'm going with the puke making the smell on it's own as normal human vomit. It's also possible (though not probable) that some zombies hit the furniture store between Lizzy leaving and Burt and Saul arriving.

I've sadly cleaned up enough vomit in my day to know that delightful combination of stomach contents and bile can stink up an area pretty easily. Saul and Burt were following the trail to the bed where she puked, but remember she also puked somewhere between the bed and the front windowbwhich could make it easier to smell.

Yeah I've thrown up enough to know that if you don't clean that vomit properly, or at all, your house/room will stink like crazy a couple of hours later. They were longer than just a couple of hours to get to the furniture store from when Lizzie was there. So yeah Lizzie's not infected but the baby is

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Originally Posted by blue rage

I believe Lizzy is infected. Here's why: when Saul and burt entered the furniture store Saul remarked how bad it smelled. Now it being a furniture store there shouldn't be anything in there to rot. Also none of the mallers said anything about it smelling bad. So what changed lizzy threw up all over the place. Normal puke isn't going to stink up the whole store. But if her insides were slowly rotting? We all know the zombies have a horrible smell. Just throwing it out there

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Have you ever smelled a moderate size amount of vomit that has sat in a place that is non air conditioned.. It can smell up a room quite easily. Remember this is L. A. and its summer.. No electricity+ no A.C. = smelling rotting vomit.

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Originally Posted by kafu288

Yeah I've thrown up enough to know that if you don't clean that vomit properly, or at all, your house/room will stink like crazy a couple of hours later. They were longer than just a couple of hours to get to the furniture store from when Lizzie was there. So yeah Lizzie's not infected but the baby is

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We are not sure there is a baby?
As virus go for example.. HIV.. If the mother has it the baby most likely will without chemical assistance in the form of anti-viral (hiv meds) the baby can't have it if the mom doesn't A baby can't have a virus that the mother doesn't have.. Not sure if that's clear let me know if its not. Its been a long week for me.

We're also not sure that the zombies are being caused by a virus... or that its a virus that acts like every other virus...

But I understood what you were trying to say

I think Lizzie might be coming a cross breed. she will have the powers of a zombie, but she will be able to contain the primal instinct and operate as a normal human would.

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Originally Posted by Eitri

I think Lizzie might be coming a cross breed. she will have the powers of a zombie, but she will be able to contain the primal instinct and operate as a normal human would.

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how does someone become a cross breed?

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Originally Posted by Eitri

I think Lizzie might be coming a cross breed. she will have the powers of a zombie, but she will be able to contain the primal instinct and operate as a normal human would.

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The zombie virus seems pretty in your face in terms of personal and rate of spreading(I have no idea what that means either), I don't really think a Cross-Breed is possible, Explain :)

After the latest episode, 21-2, I'm pretty sure that Lizzy isn't infected. I'm not sure if she is pregnant or not, but I am almost positive that she isn't infected because she hasn't been sick for some time. The last time she threw up was, correct me if i'm wrong, chapter 20-3. As for the pregnancy, I'm thinking that she isn't. I bet Pegs will be the first, if any, mother in the tower. Just a thought :o)

Correcting you: she got sick last episode during the attack in the convoy

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Originally Posted by yarri

how does someone become a cross breed?

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Especially from just having sex. Granted, if Saul is a carrier she could be infected, but becoming a half-breed makes no sense. It's an either-or situation.

Well, unless the virus has mutated in Saul, but even in such a case I'd call Lizzy a zombie, just a new type, not a half-breed.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Correcting you: she got sick last episode during the attack in the convoy

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Thank you Nikvoodoo, i don't really remeber that, but i'll re-listen to the episode again asap

I don't recall exactly when, but listen around the time the little one dropped in for a visit.

My opinion is that she is neither infected nor pregnant. One possibility could be that Saul built a natural immunity to the infection. It is kind of like when you get a vaccination shot. When you get a vaccination shot you get injected with a dormant/weakend form of the virus that you are trying to prevent. Then the body's white blood cells are strong enough to defend against it because of the weakend state of the virus, thus building a natural immunity. This is what could of happend to Saul. If the bullet did in fact go through the zombie into saul, the amount of blood transfer could of been so miniscule that his body, being in a extremely healthy state, could of developed the anti-bodies in order to defend against it. If this theory is true, then that doesn't make Saul immune from being able to become zombified. Because the virus can mutate, then his anti-bodies that he developed are no longer as useful to defend against the parasitic infection. Now that being said Saul could be a carrier of the vaccine. Lets say that Saul is "infected" then when he transfers bodily fluids(i.e. kiss) then he could of passed the weakend virus to Lizzy. Which, in that case, then Lizzy might be feeling the side effets of the natural process of the development of the anti-bodies.

@nikvoodoo I listend to that episode and yes it was around the time the little one showed up, to be precise, it was after Bricks ripped its arm off and was driving away. Lizzy threw up in the back seat and Tar said to forget about the arm and to forget about her (Lizzy) to Bricks

my theories on Lizzy being sick, are neither preggers or infected, she was either:

i) in shock, she had been recently zapped by a tazer, kidnapped then nearly raped

or

ii) kalani mentioned something in chaptor 11 p2 about the 'other tower' occupants getting nauseous in a particular part of town (ground zero), near to where the first unique creatures where encountered. Kalani was also ill for a while (but that may have been a show to avoid being picked for enterainment in the arena)

Anyone else notice that Saul was coughing and didn't look to good just before they reached the Helli? could be the lack of meds.. or perhaps something Lizzy and him share.

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Originally Posted by Blood & Ice Cream

my theories on Lizzy being sick, are neither preggers or infected, she was either:

i) in shock, she had been recently zapped by a tazer, kidnapped then nearly raped

or

ii) kalani mentioned something in chaptor 11 p2 about the 'other tower' occupants getting nauseous in a particular part of town (ground zero), near to where the first unique creatures where encountered. Kalani was also ill for a while (but that may have been a show to avoid being picked for enterainment in the arena)

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Snap, I was thinking about this possibility all afternoon, but wasn't sure how far the furniture store was from ground zero. Anyone have any idea?

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Originally Posted by rottenash

Anyone else notice that Saul was coughing and didn't look to good just before they reached the Helli? could be the lack of meds.. or perhaps something Lizzy and him share.

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Well he was shot before hand and might be fighting off something as a result of the wound. Or he and Lizzy bumped uglies when no one was looking?

In my opinion she is pregnant. In one of the last episodes it was mentioned that it has been three months since the outbreak. More than enough time for her and Saul to become close and for them to go to that next level. And thats if the took it slow with the whole who knows if we will be here tomorrow kinda mood that could rise up in an apocolyptic scenario such as this. Plus it can lead to Scratch using her as a barter for Pegs, and her being pregnant would up the ante