Does Kalani get a pass?

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Originally Posted by yarri

I thought Canada was safer then the U.S. HOLY shit!

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The safety thing is probably about the same. I think Canada just has a better advertising agency :)

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Originally Posted by trubkir

Your arguments still haven't changed my stance on not giving Kalani a pass. I understand and accept the parental aspect of your arguments and I will accept them up to a point. What would your stance be, for the tower people, if Kalani had been outed as the rat and they forced him out or shot him on the spot? I also have another question. If Kalani is touted as being a good father and doing anything for his daughter is Samantha a scum because she bailed on Hope? I have to admit I am slanted because Kalani rubbed me the wrong way right from his introduction.

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Personally, I am not trying to sway your stance on whether or not Kalani gets a pass. Too each his own. Nobody could ever sway my feelings about Scratch, no matter how hard they try--and believe me, I've read some serious novel length posts that have tried. Kudos for sticking to your guns. If the residents of the Tower had outed Kalani and either expelled or executed him--providing we had learned the entirety of the story from Kalani's perspective--I would see them no different as I would see the Mallers. It happens that I see both groups as being analogous. The biggest difference between each is that we're witnessing one side of a tale. Others may argue, as they have in the past, that the two groups are entirely different, but the reality of the situation is that both groups are fighting for survival and strength.

As for [Samantha a scum because she bailed on Hope], I'm afraid you'll have to provide a time code to explain that one to me. I'm medicated and have no recollection of this.

This really does become a game of what ifs very quickly.

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Originally Posted by trubkir

The safety thing is probably about the same. I think Canada just has a better advertising agency :)

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Our publicists are the best in the world.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

Yeah, that sort of thing is common where I live as well. I've been shot at. I've had my house shot at. I've been in a variety of armed conflicts with individuals and I've watched people (with training) curl into the fetal position and cry for their mothers. Stress affects EVERYONE differently, and just because you may have training with a weapon doesn't mean you're going to react to the stress any different. I've also seen people who are untrained handle themselves as if they had done 9 tours in a jungle somewhere in Vietnam. All training means is that you are familiar with the equipment you are using and have a relative calmness when you are faced with situations like 'shit, it's jammed' or 'I need to reload'. The only thing that will prepare you for having a gun shoved in your face is having a gun shoved in your face by someone who wants to use it on you. For the record, yes I have had a gun shoved in my face by someone I was certain intended to use it. One of the scariest moments of my life.

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those are excellent points, but at the same time what yarri said is also true, training increases your chances of surviving a situation like that. read "On Killing" by ret lt col dave grossman (i know i keep coming back to that but it really is the end all be all on the subject) in WWII only between 15 and 25 percent of US soldiers would pull the trigger on another human being. that number has risen steadily until now over 90% will fire with lethal accuracy. the difference is the training, now US soldiers are trained and drilled not to think about it but to automatically do it, before thought can enter their minds. they're trained to the point that finding that target and pulling the trigger is a reflex, all without actually experiencing combat first. while an average civilian cannot spend several months in intensive training like new soldiers, we can spend time training and honing our skills to the point that we have much better odds of surviving a potentially lethal encounter.

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Originally Posted by trubkir

Your arguments still haven't changed my stance on not giving Kalani a pass. I understand and accept the parental aspect of your arguments and I will accept them up to a point. What would your stance be, for the tower people, if Kalani had been outed as the rat and they forced him out or shot him on the spot? I also have another question. If Kalani is touted as being a good father and doing anything for his daughter is Samantha a scum because she bailed on Hope? I have to admit I am slanted because Kalani rubbed me the wrong way right from his introduction.

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I'm also not trying to sway anyone's opinion or stance. I just gave the reasoning behind mine. Samantha regretted and felt badly about not going back for Hope. She was scared. She was not scum. We never know what we'll do in a given situation until it happens.

I don't think the Tower crew would have executed Kalani. Some of them may have wanted to, but over all, I think they are better morally than the Mallers.

Kalani is a parent. In his stead if it was me, I would sacrifice the world to save my daughter / children as well. That is what parents do.

I have 7 kids, 6 boys and 1 daughter.

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Originally Posted by IrishZombieKiller

Kalani is a parent. In his stead if it was me, I would sacrifice the world to save my daughter / children as well. That is what parents do.

I have 7 kids, 6 boys and 1 daughter.

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Totally agree, He had no idea at first who the group was, it just happened that they became close. His first and only purpose was his daughter so you can't blame him for that

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Originally Posted by IrishZombieKiller

Kalani is a parent. In his stead if it was me, I would sacrifice the world to save my daughter / children as well. That is what parents do.

I have 7 kids, 6 boys and 1 daughter.

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Burn it to the ground. My only regret would be not being able to burn it a second time.

I think it is easier for parents or those who have had to raise siblings who understand that there are no borders you will not cross and nothing you will not do.

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Originally Posted by IrishZombieKiller

I think it is easier for parents or those who have had to raise siblings who understand that there are no borders you will not cross and nothing you will not do.

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My feelings exactly...