Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower?

[Ra1th]

... but because he takes the position, he will die a slow, horrible death

i'd say its the other way around, Michael dies a terrible death to save everyone, angel takes over, and becomes a good leader forevaaar

[nikvoodoo]

I promised you I wasn't going to go at you blow by blow this time, and I'm keeping that promise. So I'm just gonna cherry pick instead of going after all your points.

You say calculated risk, the show says acting without thinking. If you recall after that scene, Angel pulls Michael aside and yells at him for jeopardizing the safety of the entire tower to save one person. To which Michael responded,� what was I supposed to do? “let them die?�, and angel’s response was yes. Because had Michael failed, everyone would have died. After this saul intervenes, and he says, don’t listen to angel, he’s a prick. Michael takes a moment to calm down and thinks for a second then regretfully replies.� He was right, I put the entire tower at risk by opening that door� basically he admits he acted on instinct, to save someone because that’s his training as a soldier. Then saul gives his speech on hail mary passes. This is the difference between a soldier and an officer. As a soldier Michael’s job was to do everything to keep everyone alive, officers have to make difficult decisions on who lives and who dies.

Just ignore the fact that we're talking about Angel for the moment. Soldier A has the respect of a small group of civilians and has been acting as a leader despite having Officer B there too. In the eyes of everyone there (except Officer B), Solider A is in charge, not Officer B. Leadership is determined by actions and those who follow those actions. And in this case Solider A (though not expressly told he's in charge or having some large ceremony saying he's in charge) is in charge. Ok, back to the story.

With the breakdown of society, so too go the titles associated with the old guard. Angel may have once been the defacto leader by title at the start of the story, but he was not the leader in practice by the time of Lizzy's admission into the Tower. Michael was because everyone around him made him the leader by their actions.

I know what Michael said, of course (I'm not going to prove your points for you my good sir, Ra1th! You must do your due diligence!). His reaction worked two fold: 1. It showed Michael was capable of understanding his reactions have severe consequences thus making him a deeper character and 2. It was done to show the audience that Angel isn't viewed as a total asshole by Michael. If Michael reacted any other way to Angel's tirade, the perspective of Angel's character to the audience changes drastically.

When you ask, if the leader has the right to decide who lives and who dies by the virtue of their perceived value�, I say yes, that is a leader’s choice, and that is the leader’s burden.

And this is again getting down to the crux of the argument between you and the Angel fans, and the others on this board: Angel is not perceived as the leader. It wasn't his decision to make. And might I point out, Angel was all about letting both Todd and Lizzy and would have if he had the key on him at the time. One could argue that Angel reacts the way he does on Michael out of guilt. One could indeed argue that.....but I'm just baiting you because I don't actually believe that.

So I suppose that's my question to you: At the moment Lizzy arrived at the Tower who was the perceived leader of the Tower group? Not who claimed leadership, who was the true leader? That will get to the heart of this particular argument we're having today.

[Ra1th]

ok, so for the people watching/reading this debate, me an nik were talking via chatbox on an issue, so we're putting this on ice for a bit and solving this other debate first before moving back

the problem rises about how in ch 2 episode 1, michael shoots the lock to let Lizzy and todd in. Todd doesnt make it, lizzy does. Angel then yells at michael for jeopardizing the safety of teh entire tower for one person.

the debate now is on what was angel was angry about.

so basically the chain of events goes like this

Michael is sleeping back against the stairwell door, He hears lizzy and todd banging on the door, he opens the stairwell door, and calls for help, angel rushes downstairs, michael tells angel to get the key, angel runs upstairs for the key, michael goes to the stairwell door, the zombies are closing in and angel isnt going to make it in time, Michael shoots the lock, the zombies get todd, lizzy and michael then run to the stairwell door.

now my argument is that angel was angry about michael leaving the stairway door unattended. His exact words were, " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead. Sympathy aside this is an entirely different situation"

so that about sums it up, losing the lobby isnt so great, but the that could be reclaimed, had michael and lizzy not made it back to the stairwell in time, or they'd been killed before then or something the zombies would have made it into the tower and everyone would be dead

[nikvoodoo]

now my argument is that angel was angry about michael leaving the stairway door unattended. His exact words were, " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead. Sympathy aside this is an entirely different situation"

so that about sums it up, losing the lobby isnt so great, but the that could be reclaimed, had michael and lizzy not made it back to the stairwell in time, or they'd been killed before then or something the zombies would have made it into the tower and everyone would be dead

And the reason he and I aren't seeing eye to eye is this: My understanding of Angel's blow up has always been because Michael destabilized the safety of the Tower by shooting the lock and making the lobby insecure and over run with zombies. By taking the action of destroying the lock on the front door, he let the baddies in which is the bigger issue. The reason Angel points out the stair way door is because had he not made it back (after Michael destroyed the lock and let the zombies in) they would have all died.

To me, it's the destruction of the Front Door's lock that Angel took issue with. So now we open it up to you. What do you think? It's in Chapter 2-1. The sequence begins around the 5 minute mark and continues until about the 9 minute mark.

[Ra1th]

but his exact words are " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead."

even if angel was on his way back down the stairs with the key, having 4 or 5 zombies come up would not have been a situation he was prepared for, he lacked field exp back then , he prly wouldnt have survived that, hence me saying its the stairwell

[yarri]

My 2 cents.... There are a dozen quotes I can't quote them all so I will summarize. Please bare with me. The primary security for the whole tower was that front door lock. Angel was angry Michael shot out that lock. There was every possibility that Michael could have fallen at the front door with Tod and Lizzie leaving the main door upstairs which was not the strongest door open and inviting any zombie that felt the desire to walk up stairs for a late night snack. He (angel) is at this point not prepared to lead. I like the term.. Riker to Picard.. Michael is the leader the tower needs at this stage in the game. He is tried and tested by war. He is a front line solder a leader of men in the face of combat. HE stinks of leadership and confidence. Angel as a butter bar LT.. does not. But he is learning from Michael. When and IF they survive and get out of LA to some place else a place were a semi normal civilization can be established.. Then it changes. But for now.. Michael is it leader.

[Ra1th]

Ok, what part of " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead.� Is not coming across? There is nothing being said about the front door lock, and in the end, they managed to secure the tower without the front door lock so that really has nothing to do with this at all.

The issue is that had Michael not made it to the second door and closed it in time, the zombies would have KILLED EVERYONE IN THE TOWER, that is a lot worse than losing the front lobby, especially considering they barricaded the stairwell door.

Once again the exact quote is " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead. “

THIS door, this door meaning the door they were standing right next to, the stairwell door

[Zombiehead]

I only read #41-45.

I relistened and it sounds to me that he was upset at Michael over shooting the lock AND letting the zombies inside. Had Michael died before he got to the door, the rest would have been caught off guard and died too. You're both right. /thread

[yarri]

The second door would not have held without Michael's intervention. Hell it nearly didn't hold. The primary door was their first line of defense their best line of defense. Had Michael managed to shut the second door even with himself in the lobby they still would have battered the second door down before Angel could have manged to get the tower folk to help reinforce it. The tower folks didn't respond to him as fast as they did Michael. Michael was the instigator of reinforcement for the 2nd door too. The lobby is a very very large piece of ground to give up.

[Ra1th]

My 2 cents.... There are a dozen quotes I can't quote them all so I will summarize. Please bare with me. The primary security for the whole tower was that front door lock. Angel was angry Michael shot out that lock. There was every possibility that Michael could have fallen at the front door with Tod and Lizzie leaving the main door upstairs which was not the strongest door open and inviting any zombie that felt the desire to walk up stairs for a late night snack. He (angel) is at this point not prepared to lead. I like the term.. Riker to Picard.. Michael is the leader the tower needs at this stage in the game. He is tried and tested by war. He is a front line solder a leader of men in the face of combat. HE stinks of leadership and confidence. Angel as a butter bar LT.. does not. But he is learning from Michael. When and IF they survive and get out of LA to some place else a place were a semi normal civilization can be established.. Then it changes. But for now.. Michael is it leader.

Precious Michael is not the only one who has field experience anymore, angel has been on more field ops than anyone in the tower. He also knows combat and can deal with zombies just as well as Michael can. Angel WAS a butter bar lt. that’s not the case anymore, in the time Michael was a cripple and saul was half dead, angel was the only soldier running missions, during this time he carried the weight of the other two on his own, that puts you above a butter bar, a butter bar is a term for an inexperienced inept officer who hasn’t seen combat right? well angel has been knee deep in the shit for the last month, how is he still a butter bar?

Right now, Angel cannot lead because he lacks the charisma to keep the people of the tower in line. Once he gains that charisma he has the skill and the experience to lead in any damn environment.