Chapter 39-2 Chemical Reactions

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

I've heard about this process; wasn't it fairly widespread in Germany during WWII? The hardware looks readily accessible, and the fuel supply is literally springing up all over at this point in the story. I wouldn't want to have outrun a behemoth in one of these, but it sure beats walking!

That's correct and there had been attempts of coal liquefaction.

[LiamKerrington]

Also bummed we haven't heard from Burt or Riley yet in these episodes. We are supposedly 4 months into their adventure now, there must be some stories to share.

I don't expect to hear from them earlier than #40 if not #41 ... But I may be wrong. And I hope I am, because I am SO CURIOUS about what is going on with them ...

[Red Shirt]

and another thing..if the levels of keratin rise to high levels during the change...what happens to it after? if it goes back down, it must be being processed in some way? you cant explain away something like that via osmosis ...or whatever. perhaps that's something we should all explore. RED SHIRT! YOU HAVE AN ASSIGNMENT!

So increases in K-18 may not just be a by-product of the growth, but in an internal feedback loop help continue the growth of tissues in the body.

Holy mother of Mary - and some other guy... I don't remember. Biology class was so long ago... and I only took Bio-I in High School. This is some serious collegiate level Biology/BioChem action here. Sincere apologies to those of you who may read this who are Biologists and Biochemists by training and trade, but let me see if I can unpack this...

Let me start from the top down:
(Sections in italics are direct copy/paste quotes taken right from the wiki.)

• Animals are multicellular, eukaryotic organisms of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa. Cells that make up animals are metazoan cells and inside the cells is a:
• Cytoskeleton. "The cytoskeleton (also CSK) is a cellular scaffolding or skeleton contained within a cell's cytoplasm... It forms structures such as flagella, cilia and lamellipodia and plays important roles in both intracellular transport (the movement of vesicles and organelles, for example) and cellular division... The cytoskeleton provides the cell with structure and shape" The cytoskeleton is comprised of several things, including:
• Intermediate filaments. "Intermediate filaments (IFs) are cytoskeletal components found in metazoan cells." There are two types present, Type 1 and Type II. Type I is comprised of:
• Type I keratin. "Type I keratins (or Type I cytokeratins) constitutes the Type I intermediate filaments (IFs) of the intracytoplasmatic cytoskeleton, which is present in all mammalian epithelial cells. Most of the type I keratins consist of acidic, low molecular weight proteins." Among the Type I keratins is:
• Keratin 18. "Keratin 18 is a type I cytokeratin. It is, together with its filament partner keratin 8, perhaps the most commonly found products of the intermediate filament gene family. They are expressed in single layer epithelial tissues of the body." Epithelial tissues or;
• Epithelium, is one of the four basic types of animal tissue, along with connective tissue, muscle tissue and nervous tissue. Epithelial tissues line the cavities and surfaces of structures throughout the body, and also form many glands. The primary functions of epithelial tissues are: (1) to protect the tissues that lie beneath it from radiation, desiccation, toxins, invasion by pathogens, and physical trauma; (2) the regulation and exchange of chemicals between the underlying tissues and a body cavity; (3) the secretion of hormones into the blood vascular system, and/or the secretion of sweat, mucus, enzymes, and other products that are delivered by ducts glandular epithelium; (4) to provide sensation.

You got it right, cupcakezombie. I was wrong about my initial assumptions. The K18 isn't a byproduct of the growth, it IS the growth. What ever it is that is causing the "zombification," it radically changes the structure of the human body right down to (at least) the sub cellular level:

• Body morphology, as seen with the differing forms of infected at the outset of the story.
• Glandular and hormonal, as seen with the salivating infected during the sweat jar experiment.
• Glandular with the salivary glands used to spread the infection...
• "Invasion by pathogens," changing the susceptibility of infection, possibly explaining the extreme speed at which the victims succumbed and a reason why the very thing that may have sparked the change, the Inglewood Haze, is also now toxic to them.
• Behavioral changes with altered adrenal glands and radically changed hormones... resulting in obscene animalistic rage, aggression and hunger.
• Body morphology also affected by hormones. Tanya states (I believe) "under developed" secondary sexual characteristics in a female specimen... I do believe that a side effect of increased testosterone in women, e.g.: women bodybuilders taking male HGH and/or testosterone, is breast tissue shrinks.

It is probably obvious with the existence of the special infected, but it bears saying that these things aren't just humans with a fever rage. For all appearances, these creatures seem to have been rebuilt at the cellular level into something new... they look mostly human-ish but they most certainly are NOT. Not anymore.

7oddisdead, back to your question, where does the K18 go? I see three possibilities, the first being that K18 as a cellular building block gets used up at the tail end of the "turning." Second, the blood gets processed by the kidneys and K18 and its byproducts are eliminated in urine. Third: at the core of it, K18 is protein which is also processed by the liver.

Now, I have heard stories of extreme body builders suffering liver failure. Protein toxicity can also cause kidney failure. We have also learned that K18 is (apparently) a testable marker for cancer. I'll bet that's what is killing the behemoths. Because they are so large, it is reasonable to assume that their K18 spike during turning was significantly higher which led to inevitable kidney & liver failure, cirrhosis and cancer.

Homework for Tanya: examine the pathology of the liver and get a urine sample(s) of a turner. Check the results for indicators of kidney failure.

Which leads into another theory, the one of Saul and Tanya's perceived "immunity." Just want to add this one to the stuff we are already throwing at the wall...
Since they now seem to be testing Z+, my previous Anthrax/Smallpox vaccine cocktail seems to have been falsified. Saul and Tanya might have a genetic disposition to develop cancer and due to that particular gene sequence mutation, it prevents the changes from occurring due to the connection that K18 has with cancer.

I always assumed the description of the stretch marks indicated very rapid growth of the body such that the skin couldn't keep up. I'd like to throw out there that it might also be HGH (human growth hormone) that was included in whatever "treatment" the big guys got to become behemoths. Steroids, HGH, or whatever - I think the behemoths were one of the evolutionary/intelligent design steps in the creation of the Little Ones (and anything that might be around after those guys....)

Don't forget the acne. Angel pointed that out too. I do believe that acne is also a side effect of steroid use as well as ordinary growth (hormonal changes of puberty). With what I mention above with the baseline of the physiological changes of "zombification," you have the possibility for radical hormonal changes coupled with the possibility of what is taking place in TOWTM's workshop of horrors with a drug/steroid/haze essence cocktail. My theories on that here and here.

Doom.. The Greatest Video Game Series of All Time.. Movie was ok but not what I would have thought a Doom movie should be..

Agreed. I was a little surprised by the direction they took with the 24th Chromosome... I was expecting the Jump Gate (to hell) that was probably inspired by Stephen King's "The Jaunt." Then again, Event Horizon kinda got the jump on them with the Hyperspace Is a Scary Place theme.

Does anyone remember Skittles warning about going to lab or doctor areas?

Yes, when he's educating Angel and Kalani about the different types of biters, he tells them to stay away from those kinds of areas because that's where the 'brains' (as he calls them) hang around. I don't think this was done out of any desire to keep them from uncovering any sort of conspiracy, rather Skittles just knew that the smart-biters were near impossible to escape from, and so wanted to forewarn them against going to any place where they might be.

I seem to recall he mentioned Libraries and Hospitals... or was more likely stated as the Book and Doctor places, then the "Brain Places."

Alright, time to hit send. I have more thoughts but that will have to wait until tomorrow night. On Halloween... dun dun DUN!

[7oddisdead]

Holy mother of Mary - and some other guy... I don't remember. Biology class was so long ago... and I only took Bio-I in High School. This is some serious collegiate level Biology/BioChem action here. Sincere apologies to those of you who may read this who are Biologists and Biochemists by training and trade, but let me see if I can unpack this..[/LIST]
You got it right, cupcakezombie. I was wrong about my initial assumptions. The K18 isn't a byproduct of the growth, it IS the growth. What ever it is that is causing the "zombification," it radically changes the structure of the human body right down to (at least) the sub cellular level:

• Body morphology, as seen with the differing forms of infected at the outset of the story.
• Glandular and hormonal, as seen with the salivating infected during the sweat jar experiment.
• Glandular with the salivary glands used to spread the infection...
• "Invasion by pathogens," changing the susceptibility of infection, possibly explaining the extreme speed at which the victims succumbed and a reason why the very thing that may have sparked the change, the Inglewood Haze, is also now toxic to them.
• Behavioral changes with altered adrenal glands and radically changed hormones... resulting in obscene animalistic rage, aggression and hunger.
• Body morphology also affected by hormones. Tanya states (I believe) "under developed" secondary sexual characteristics in a female specimen... I do believe that a side effect of increased testosterone in women, e.g.: women bodybuilders taking male HGH and/or testosterone, is breast tissue shrinks.

It is probably obvious with the existence of the special infected, but it bears saying that these things aren't just humans with a fever rage. For all appearances, these creatures seem to have been rebuilt at the cellular level into something new... they look mostly human-ish but they most certainly are NOT. Not anymore.

7oddisdead, back to your question, where does the K18 go? I see three possibilities, the first being that K18 as a cellular building block gets used up at the tail end of the "turning." Second, the blood gets processed by the kidneys and K18 and its byproducts are eliminated in urine. Third: at the core of it, K18 is protein which is also processed by the liver.

Now, I have heard stories of extreme body builders suffering liver failure. Protein toxicity can also cause kidney failure. We have also learned that K18 is (apparently) a testable marker for cancer. I'll bet that's what is killing the behemoths. Because they are so large, it is reasonable to assume that their K18 spike during turning was significantly higher which led to inevitable kidney & liver failure, cirrhosis and cancer.

Homework for Tanya: examine the pathology of the liver and get a urine sample(s) of a turner. Check the results for indicators of kidney failure.

Alright, time to hit send. I have more thoughts but that will have to wait until tomorrow night. On Halloween... dun dun DUN!

firstly, the jaunt and event horizon are probly my two favorite sci fi pieces...without a doubt. that said....




wow, son. you get an A+ on your assignment. I cut to the bits I found the most interesting. it would seem we can pinpoint our searches into the "internal changes" to the liver and kidneys. what makes me so sure about those? well, lets explore the thyroid system.

https://www.google.com/#q=thyroid%20physiology

a ton of interesting reading in there. I simply went with the google search in this case because it would fill nearly an entire page to take notes of all the references. I believe the most important bits I took from this search is the thyroid gland essentially feeds the liver and kidneys. the t3 and t4 production from the thyroid feeds not only the liver and kidneys, but the hypothalamus and pituitary gland...quite interesting stuff...DAMN YOU KC, I HATED THIS STUFF IN HIGH SCHOOL....NOW I LIKE IT. YOUR A JERK

going further down the rabbithole...we could search for this.

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/110/1/23.full.pdf

that one,admittedly..is a shit ton of science stuff to get through. but it also vaguely wraps its way around what could cause K18 levels to increase and decrease. its also a billion light years over my head/pay grade...I don't analyse what I don't understand, I simply present and point in a general direction...theory team, go!!(guys is it wrong that I think of myself as the "think tank" and you guys as the executioners? can't help it...I do)

back on track. I like your explanation of where the k18's go, red. particularly the idea of the keratins used as a building block for whatever changes are taking place. the fun part of this idea is THERE'S NO LEGIT SCIENCE-Y WAY TO PROVE IT. is there?

I suppose that's the one thing we all should keep in mind. at some point this part of the story (the science of zombies) MUST go from science fact, to science fiction. but at what point does that happen? how many different avenues of the "k18 quandary" can we explore before we get to the shit KC has just made up? how many unknown variables must we plug in and "solve for x" before we reach a point where we are giving other writers ideas? I don't know. I do know however, this has been quite fun...hopefully it continues to be.

have fun...or else
todd out

[7oddisdead]

fuck it...im up and the noodle is firing..the stream of consciousness time.

I forgot to mention in my first post, good thinking on the kidney failure red. if what we are thinking here is correct, the basic function of the kidneys should be mostly nonexsistant. so kidney failure would be evident, as they have likely been assimilated to divert function to both the hypothalamus and liver. man, I would lave to at least have a hint as to what Tanya found internally in wendy...this shit really is fascinating.

so with the ideas of thyroid gland in mind, lets explore the metabolism of the biter. have we been given any indication of how the bodily functions of our zombies work? by that I am of course referring to shit and piss. (or to be more p.c. poop and pee. heh... "pee"). the way the human body processes its intake is fairly well understood by most of us. a good diet yields good physical fitness in most of us, a bad one? well, I think we all know of what that can cause. now, knowing that the thyroid controls the way our bodies process the intake of "raw goods"(dictating what goes where, the engery used to process, and the energy expelled from its processing)..would it not stand to reason that the intake of a 100% protein diet (ie: human flesh) would throw the metabolism and susquently the entire body into some sort of "abandon all ships" state? internal changes to the structure by which the body processes incoming material would have to see a subnificant change to acommidate for this. does the body change the entire way it structures its internal functions or simply swap out to a different form of metabolizing proteins? just think if all you ate was red meat, how would your body react?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/12/health...rten-lifespan/
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/daily...olic.syndrome/

now,of course those two studies are in us common humans. but how would those studies change if we actually plugged in the idea of a "zombie"?
to me, this entire idea of the K18 increase triggering a change within the body is simply establiching a change within the body to accomidate for the dietary change of one subsisting on nothing but protein and h20 (and iron, and....well, the other bits found in meat).

now, the fun stuff. red shirt brought up the idea of basic "protein poisoning" among body builders. that, coupled with the tumors, coupled with the keratin level increases....well, it just confirms our suspicions. be it steroids or hgh...I think we have this one on lock. next on the agenda little ones.

how much you want to bet the little ones, if they ever were in fact human...had their keratin levels remain intact, or even raised post-turning? ill bet a four pack of this http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/423/39621 that's the case. (damn, I need to learn to hyper link)


this episode of brain farting brought to you by "the sixth glass"

again, have fun...or else
todd-o

[Witch_Doctor]

Wow! Poor old Witch Doctor's head is spinning (like Reagan's). This is a far cry from tea leaves, chicken bones and puffer fish. Gonna take me a while to go through this.

[Grognaurd]

It's probably time for Michael to share the intel about the Long Beach "Naval Base" that the scouting team from Fort Irwin gathered. They reported that the base was "clear", so it might be worth searching it for for weapons and ammo.

A resupply node for an amphibious assault carrier would have them sitting pretty

[LiamKerrington]

Hi.

I liked your wall of words, although I did not read them. But sure as hell they are great.

Big question:

Since Kelly is involved in the theoretical paperwork, and since Kelly is able to "read" other people (she knew something was fishy about Amy back right before Marcus was overthrown ...), what does she know about the 'numbers' related to Tanya and Saul? What are her conclusions? Will she be silent about it, or will she accidentally or purposefully start any rumors about them?

Best wishes!
Liam

[Grognaurd]

And is it just me who thinks that the way Kelly says "Good luck with that" at the end is really creepy? I was never really a proponent of the Kelly-As-Rat theory, but the way she said that just made me think that she knows something awful is going to happen.

Hxx

KC had some ominous music there, also. I do not quite understand it. "Good Luck!" Seems right, but in my slang, "With That" is usually a sarcastic tag. Is she insulting military intelligence, again?

She thought journals to figure out what is going on with the outbreak were a waste of time. Michael with Lizzy's help overruled her in Season 1

In season 4, she says a lot of similar stuff.

The army comedy duo is not the brightest bunch and You need my thinking skills to Michael
Maybe that is why I am here (Tanya may have missed something)
Her argument with Victor behind the door

[Grognaurd]

wow, son. you get an A+

we all should keep in mind. at some point this part of the story (the science of zombies) MUST go from science fact, to science fiction. but at what point does that happen?

have fun...or else
todd out

We have all been there and seen the science of science fiction FAIL...

THIS IS NOT THAT DAY!!!