If all hell broke loose right now, what would you do?

[LiamKerrington]

Hi.

@Reaper: Your rules-catalogue is a bit "vague, don't you think"? *just kidding*

@topic:

Q1: If all hell broke loose right now, what would you do?

I would take my camping stuff, food- and water-supplies, medical stuff, my family as well as our pets up to the roof, which can be disconnected from the rest of the house via a retrectable ladder and a trapdoor. There we would remain for the next few days and observe the happening around our house.

Q2: In which we share our perfect survival plan.
Step 1: Collect as much supplies from the cellar and storage, collect as much drinking water as possible, important ID-documents, set up kind of a 'base' as described in Q1.
Step 2.1: Start getting used to living without relying on ressources like electricity, drinking water, and gas for the stove or oven; these ressources will either be depleted soon (water, gas) or fail due to malfunctioning (electricity, broadcasting, radio-/ cellular-communication).
Step 2.2: Observe the outside with regards to Zombies, survivars, scavengers/ looters, police/ military while keeping a very low profile in general.
Step 3: After the first days, when the first wave has ebbed down, it really depends on what the situation looks like. I live in a medium-sized village. Therefore I would guess that there will be some more survivors, which is why it could be a good idea to 'recreate' the village by establishing some kind of fortification. I would avoid any town or city, since it is to be expected that Zombies will accumulate there in huge numbers. Considering moving away from my 'home base' I would move to somewhere lightly populated in order to get in touch with people. In any case I would try to get a generator for electricity, a solid radio- and/ or sat-communication device, and I would try to get in touch with people.

All this would only work, if I am aware of what is going to happen. But if not ... Well, another one bites the dust, right?

All the best!
Liam

[reaper239]

Hi.

@Reaper: Your rules-catalogue is a bit "vague, don't you think"? *just kidding*

yeah, tell me about it. nah, it's more about what you can do: you can do anything, that doesn' violate the rights of others. for the privelige of living in the colony, you also have certain responsibilities, which are enumerated. i also wrote it in a late middle english style, because that seemed like fun at the tyme. i like writing creative stuff.

[LiamKerrington]

yeah, tell me about it. nah, it's more about what you can do: you can do anything, that doesn' violate the rights of others. for the privelige of living in the colony, you also have certain responsibilities, which are enumerated. i also wrote it in a late middle english style, because that seemed like fun at the tyme. i like writing creative stuff.

Hi there.

No, really. It's a pretty cool catalogue of rules and principles. I just wuoted Kelly on the first four rules established by Michael.

All the best!
Liam

[Solanine]

TLDR. I joke. So while this is a good plan I'm not sure all citizens having a fire arm is a good thing. To prevent civil unrest escalating into civil war it may be better to award guns only to those charged with the defence of the colony. Possibly Men and women should be allowed a handgun/ something small with which to defend their property while a communal gun store is created for everything from shotguns to light machine guns and kept under lock and key. A set number of trustees should be given keys and keep radios on their person at all times so that in the case that the colony needs defending the citizens may be armed. A record of all guns should be kept to avid them being stolen during times of unrest. As far as your idea of a democratic leadership goes I'm not opposed in principle but it seems like an awfully complicated. Systems like this have a habit of collapsing under strain. Although its brilliant you've got planning for so far in the future. What you don't have is any laws on contact with "outsiders", the ability of the state to go to war etc, thoughts?
thats it for now although I will come back for more when I have more time.

i disagree, as long as your core agree to set standards and everyone else who joins you after that must agree to the same, it would be a fairly simple matter to maintain order. here is my plan for forming a colony:

Free and honest men, as is their tendency to do, will come together in the aide of one another in times of need and crisis. For their common defense, free and honest men will seek to reside near each other and to supply each other with resources to aide in their common survival. Men such as these will not seek wrong each other out of spite, yet disagreements will arise among them as they are imperfect men in an imperfect world. Not all men are free and honest as some are bound to sin and deceitful, and so it is for these reasons that we come together to ratify these standards for living peaceably amongst each other, and do affirm that all those who seek shelter amongst us shall abide the same.

1. Structure
2. The people shall come together as free men and women and shall decide together the fate of the colony, every man and woman, over the age of 16, having the right to vote and to affect the future of the colony. Every member of the colony shall also, at any time required by the needs of the colony, contribute to the collected defense of the colony.
3. Once the colony reaches a population of no more than 60, the colony shall organize into neighborhoods of no less than 20 and no more than 39 people, decided by locale, and the free grouping of free people.
   
   1. Each neighborhood shall elect one (1) individual to represent them in the Congress of the Colony (hereafter referred to as The Congress or simply Congress) in all matters affecting the whole of the colony. This representative shall attend The Congress to present the will of the people in his neighborhood and shall, upon recess of that Congress, report back to his neighborhood to inform the people of updates and decisions regarding the progress of The Congress, and shall continue in this manner until the conclusion of The Congress. A new election shall be held at the conclusion of every congress for each representative, and no man or woman shall be elected to that position more than two times in a row, nor serve as any more than every fifth representative.
   2. The Congress shall convene on the first day of every month to ensure that the business of the colony is managed properly and proceeds unimpeded. They will serve one day in session to present all business to be discussed at that Congress, and then recess for two days to present the business to the Citizens of their respective neighborhoods. On the fourth day they shall reconvene and shall each present the response of their neighborhoods to each article of business, except in the event that any of the neighborhoods have not reached a consensus on the business at hand, at which point a further day of recess shall be granted, not exceeding three (3) days. The Congress shall then have three (3) days to conclude business. The duties of The Congress shall be enumerated further in this document.
   
   
4. Once the colony has attained a size requiring the formation of twelve (12) neighborhoods, the colony shall be further divided into districts, each comprised of three to five (3-5) neighborhoods.
   
   1. Each neighborhood shall elect one (1) representative to manage the affairs of the neighborhood through service in the District Council (hereafter referred to as The Council or simply Council). The Council will operate in much the same manner as does The Congress, and their duties shall be listed further in this document.
   2. Each District shall elect one (1) representative to serve in The Congress which shall operate the same as prior except that there will be an extra day for initial recess as the Congressmen reports to the Councilors and they report to the people.
   3. Each neighborhood shall elect one Lawman who shall serve with the other Lawmen from the district to keep order and apprehend criminals. The term each Lawman shall serve is to be one quarter of the year, with the year beginning on January first, and no member of the colony is to serve more than one term as a Lawman in any given year. The duties and power of the Lawmen shall be enumerated further in this document.
   4. The Congress shall, from this point forward meet every other month and the election for Congressman shall be held in the second month of a congressional convention for the next cycle. In the event a special session is required for emergency business, the congress of the current cycle shall convene.
   
   
5. Once the colony has reached a size requiring the formation of twelve (12) Districts, the colony will be further organized into regions consisting of no less than three (3) and no more than five (5) districts.
   
   1. Each neighborhood shall elect one (1) representative to serve on The Council.
   2. Each District shall elect one (1) representative to serve on the Regional Assembly (hereafter referred to as The Assembly). The Assembly shall operate in the same fashion as The Congress and meet every other month, with elections being held in the second month of the cycle. In addition to convening on the first day of each new cycle, The Assembly shall also convene when The Congress convenes. The congressmen shall return to their regions and relay the business of the colony to the members of The Assembly. The Assemblymen shall then relay that business to their district Councilors and once they have delivered a verdict to the congressman they shall conclude the Assembly.
   3. Each Region shall elect a representative to serve in The Congress. The Congress shall be granted one extra day of initial recess, and shall meet in the first month of each quarter year, with the year beginning on January first, and elections shall be held in the third month of the congressional cycle.
   4. Each neighborhood shall elect one Lawman who shall serve with the other Lawmen from the district to keep order and apprehend criminals.
   5. Each District shall elect a Sheriff to coordinate the efforts of the Lawmen in their District and to cooperate across the Region. The term a Sheriff shall serve is one quarter of the year, with the year beginning on January first, and no member of the colony shall serve more than one term as either a Sheriff or a Lawman in any given year. The Duties of the Sheriff shall be enumerated further in this document.
   
   
6. Once the colony has reached a size requiring the formation of twelve (12) regions, the colony will split evenly, forming two fully functioning and self governing colonies. The colonies are then free to dissolve ties with each other or, in the spirit of this document, to band together and establish a higher form of government, preferably modeled after the Constitution of the United States of America, and work together for the betterment of their citizens, and the betterment of humanity as a whole.
7. Duties of Elected Officials
   
   1. Congress
      
      1. To settle disputes between the highest orders of organization (neighborhoods, districts, regions, respectively).
      2. To manage the dealings of the colony with outsiders who do not wish to join (ie, trade with other colonies, raiders, etc).
      3. To prosecute crimes that occur between the highest orders of organization (ie, a man from one region kills a man from another)
      4. To prosecute appeals from the highest order of organization.
      5. To prosecute crimes against the colony
      6. To protect the rights of the citizens. The purpose of law is the defense of personal liberty, not the rectification of social injustice. To that end, The Congress shall pass no law constraining the personal liberties of the Citizens of the colony, and shall only have the power to pass laws respecting the rights of the Citizens.
      7. To set and standardize the weights and measures.
      
      
   2. Council
      
      1. To settle disputes between neighborhoods.
      2. To manage the dealings of the district with other districts.
      3. To prosecute inter-neighborhood crimes.
      4. To prosecute Felonies.
      5. To manage the standard operation of the markets in their district.
      
      
   3. Assembly
      
      1. To settle disputes between districts.
      2. To manage the dealings of one region with another.
      3. To prosecute inter-district crimes.
      4. To prosecute appeals from the council level.
      
      
   4. Representative notes
      
      1. Councilors, Assemblymen, and Congressmen shall be compensated one days wage for every day in session. They shall serve the people from whence they come during the session and then return to their homes to continue in their business and earn their living as amongst free and honest men.
      2. A days wage shall be determined as what is likely to be required for sustenance and healthy maintenance of a single and averaged sized adult, and as the average of ammunition and supplies to be expended throughout the day.
      
      
   5. Lawman
      
      1. To conduct regular watches throughout his neighborhood and to organize a volunteer peace force to maintain watch.
      2. To apprehend for trial violators of the common law of the colony.
      3. The Lawman shall, when pursuing a suspect, have the power and authority to assemble a posse to assist with the apprehension.
      
      
   6. Sheriff
      
      1. To coordinate the efforts of the Lawmen under his jurisdiction.
      2. To pursue and apprehend, with the aid of the Lawmen, fugitives fleeing from one neighborhood to another.
      3. To transport suspects to trial and to transport convicts to have their sentence carried out.
      4. To facilitate the release of acquitted persons.
      
      
   7. Peace Force notes
      
      1. The Sheriffs and Lawmen shall be compensated with one days wages for each day of service.
      2. The offices of Sheriff and Lawman shall be issued some type of long rifle or shotgun for duty services as available.
      3. Volunteers for the Peace Force watch shall provide their own weapons, but shall be provided with two (2) loads of ammunition for the duration of their watch, to be returned to the Peace Force armory if not used.
      4. The constituency of the elected officer shall develop a defining uniform which shall be issued to each person holding that office.
      5. All citizens can, if witnessing a crime, detain the offender.
   
   
8. Common Laws
   
   1. The purpose of law, as stated previously in this document, is to defend personal liberties, not to rectify perceived social injustice. As such the only true law is common law, that which is naturally evident through observation in the world and behaviors around us. We find that the laws common to all man can best be enumerated through the inalienable rights endowed to us by our creator, and that among these are the rights to Life, Liberty, and Property.
      
      1. The right to Life encompasses many aspects of the common law. We have the right to live and so are guaranteed through common law a freedom from unwarranted attack, whether intended as lethal or non-lethal, a right to defend ourselves against such an unwarranted attack with lethal force, and a freedom to earn a living through any means we see fit, so long as that means does not violate the rights of another.
      2. The right to Liberty guarantees us freedom in activity. No one may inhibit the activities of another that does not violate the rights of any.
      3. The right to Property guarantees that every man is entitled his possessions and no others, and shall remain in possession of his belongings until such time as he should decide to part with it. People are not property
      
      
   2. While all men have certain rights residing within the colony is a privilege. As such all persons over the age of 16 have certain responsibilities.
      
      1. All men and women have a responsibility to contribute to the defense of the colony. To that end, all persons over the age of 16 are required to own and maintain a firearm within the colony and to keep it with them at all times.
      2. Every man shall keep regular training with his arms and shall, when available, be afforded two loads of ammunition for his weapon on every second month with which to train.
      3. All persons have a responsibility to provide for themselves. Every able bodied man and woman over the age of 16 shall work, either farming, maintenance, scavenging, or some other job for which they may collect their wage of their own accord, or trade their service for a wage to be bartered between the two parties of the transaction.
      4. For the privilege of residing in the colony, all members of the colony will be taxed by three quarters of one days wage at the beginning of every week, with any and all excess to be stored as a colony stockpile. The elected officials may not vote to increase this tax.
      5. The Citizens of the colony have the authority to vote to trade supplies from the colony stockpile for other types of supplies and equipment that may be of use to the colony. Trade may only be initiated once enough of the stockpile has been set aside to ensure that the elected officials are compensated as intended. The elected officials may not vote to initiate trade without the approval of their constituency.
      6. Once in every third month, stockpile permitting, the colony may elect to distribute three quarters of the stockpile back to the Citizens of the colony.
      7. Every man and woman, over the age of 16, shall, for the duration of their stay in the colony, be assigned a regular shift to keep watch on and about the exterior of the colony, in order that, in the event of attack, an alarm may be raised in a timely manner.
      
      
   3. The individuals elected to government are not special citizens and are in fact merely avatars to the will of the people. To that end there are limits to the power a government may wield over its people.
      
      1. The government may not alter this document, except through a ballot vote amongst the populace for which they receive two thirds approval to move forward with the selected alteration.
      2. As every man is a member of the militia defending the colony, no standing army may be raised as all defensive needs have been met through the militia.
      3. The government may not, in any way, limit where arms may be borne, nor in what fashion, nor which arms. The right to bear arms is absolute.
      4. The government may not levy any taxes on its citizens, other than what has already been established in this document. The government may also not tax goods coming in or out of the city.
      5. The government may not initiate dealings with outsiders without approval from the people in the form of a simple majority.
      6. The government may not pass any rule or regulation that in any way limits the freedoms of the individuals, except where expressly stated above.
   
   
9. This document is the framework we shall use for maintaining order, peace, and civility in the colony, and maintaining a safe environment. Following are the people who have read and agreed to this document and the rules set forth therein. Violation of this document may result in expulsion from the colony, and the signature of the violator following this document removes any question of knowledge from the proceedings.

ok, so the numbring didn't transfer exactly the way it was in word, but i think you can get the general idea. it's not perfect, but it's something. also, it only applies to a colony, alliances between colonies aren't covered and would equire a slightly different framework. i had fun writing this up, enjoy.

[reaper239]

TLDR. I joke. So while this is a good plan I'm not sure all citizens having a fire arm is a good thing. To prevent civil unrest escalating into civil war it may be better to award guns only to those charged with the defence of the colony. Possibly Men and women should be allowed a handgun/ something small with which to defend their property while a communal gun store is created for everything from shotguns to light machine guns and kept under lock and key. A set number of trustees should be given keys and keep radios on their person at all times so that in the case that the colony needs defending the citizens may be armed. A record of all guns should be kept to avid them being stolen during times of unrest. As far as your idea of a democratic leadership goes I'm not opposed in principle but it seems like an awfully complicated. Systems like this have a habit of collapsing under strain. Although its brilliant you've got planning for so far in the future. What you don't have is any laws on contact with "outsiders", the ability of the state to go to war etc, thoughts?
thats it for now although I will come back for more when I have more time.

the problem is that everyone is responsible for defense, there are no designated guards who's only job is to pull duty, everyone rotates out. besides, we here in america have lots of guns and, aside from major differences on civil rights which led to the civil war, we haven't had anything major here. also, there's some truth to the old adage "an armed society is a polite society," the only places here in the US that we've had major rioting and civil unrest is in cities where guns have been heavily regulated. plus, are you going to try and rob your fellow survivors if you know for a fact they all have guns?

the reason for doing a system like that is to try to keep small communities where people know each other and care about each other. they would get lots of practice running things as a community from the lowest levels of government and then, no matter hw high things go, they will still operate as a small community. what's going to be a harder place to break open: the place with 120 people milling around who don't know each other too well, or the place made up of 6 tight knit communities working in concert together, where the people are invested in each other and willing to stand up and fight for one another?

regarding war, there should be no real need to go to war. if the colony reaches the point where it would be feasible to raise an army to wage war, there won't likely be any people with the strength to take them on. in pretty much every other situation the colonies prime focus should be self defense. if, at some point, it should become necessary to go to war, i imagine it would just be volunteers going off to remove a threat to the colony.

[Solanine]

the problem is that everyone is responsible for defense, there are no designated guards who's only job is to pull duty, everyone rotates out. besides, we here in america have lots of guns and, aside from major differences on civil rights which led to the civil war, we haven't had anything major here. also, there's some truth to the old adage "an armed society is a polite society," the only places here in the US that we've had major rioting and civil unrest is in cities where guns have been heavily regulated. plus, are you going to try and rob your fellow survivors if you know for a fact they all have guns?

the reason for doing a system like that is to try to keep small communities where people know each other and care about each other. they would get lots of practice running things as a community from the lowest levels of government and then, no matter hw high things go, they will still operate as a small community. what's going to be a harder place to break open: the place with 120 people milling around who don't know each other too well, or the place made up of 6 tight knit communities working in concert together, where the people are invested in each other and willing to stand up and fight for one another?

regarding war, there should be no real need to go to war. if the colony reaches the point where it would be feasible to raise an army to wage war, there won't likely be any people with the strength to take them on. in pretty much every other situation the colonies prime focus should be self defense. if, at some point, it should become necessary to go to war, i imagine it would just be volunteers going off to remove a threat to the colony.

Crowd sourcing of defence would be less effective than guards trained for discipline. The reason for gun control is quite simple, take the DKR shooting. That happened with only the stresses of normal life in a first world country. The extra stress of seeing so many people die/blaming people for the deaths of loved ones could easily lead to shootings and makes it easy for one individual to take control turning the place into a dictatorship. As far as war goes I'm not talking full scale war, only the maller-tower type situation. Does the government have the authority to force the citizens into service for their own defence?
Does war have to be announced via a referendum?
The tight knitted community thing is a bloody good idea, my only fault is the community's then are suspicious of outside communities even with an alliance. When gun control is not existent and the communities get paranoid things could easily get out of hand.

[reaper239]

Crowd sourcing of defence would be less effective than guards trained for discipline. The reason for gun control is quite simple, take the DKR shooting. That happened with only the stresses of normal life in a first world country. The extra stress of seeing so many people die/blaming people for the deaths of loved ones could easily lead to shootings and makes it easy for one individual to take control turning the place into a dictatorship. As far as war goes I'm not talking full scale war, only the maller-tower type situation. Does the government have the authority to force the citizens into service for their own defence?
Does war have to be announced via a referendum?
The tight knitted community thing is a bloody good idea, my only fault is the community's then are suspicious of outside communities even with an alliance. When gun control is not existent and the communities get paranoid things could easily get out of hand.

the argument against gun control is: what stops a deranged gunman? a law abiding citizen with a gun. the only way to stop a madman is through countervailing force. that's why that guy in norway was able to kill 87 people, because there was no one there to stop him. most shootings in the US happen in "gun free" zones (oh the irony) and those that happen elsewhere don't make it off the ground because law abiding citizens with guns are able to put a stop to it.

in the event of attack, everyone would go to their predetermined battle stations for lack of better term and would be responsible for the community's defense. also, a dictator wouldn't be able to take control because everyone has a gun.

as far as the tight knit community thing goes, all the people would work together. it's just like a neighborhood in any city, you have your neighbors, and in a great neighborhood, you develop a bond with them that makes you into a community, they are your friends, but you work in the city, so you have friends there too. the communities would form that bond as neighbors, but they would bond with others through other activities.

i understand your feelings on guns, guns are weapons designed to kill, but by themselves they do no harm, nor good. guns are not the problem, people are the problem. if you ever go to texas, the people there are some of the nicest in the world, not because of guns, but because a culture that cherishes the right to self defense and self preservation tends to be one in which people who care about others can feel secure enough in their personal defense to act upon their feelings. instead of citizens being afraid of criminals, criminals are afraid of citizens and that allows the law abiding to flourish. there will always be unstable people who commit egregious acts in the name of their insanity, but europes shootings, despite massive gun control common in most european nations, are far worse than anything in the US.

[Solanine]

A dictator could take control because of everybody having a gun. Him and his supporters just have to murder the leaders and BAM! Chaos. Who unites the colony? The dictator.
Pre determined battle stations is great but if you already have people manning the perimeter eg the guardians you have greater warning + a well trained force to repel at least the first few waves.
By that time the citizens are armed with more substantial fire arms than the handguns I suggested were allowed for defence of ones person.
As usual you see the best in people Reaper, which is by no means a fault. But especially when your survival is on the line people tend to be paranoid, territorial etc.
What happens the first time a community who is hard pushed for food strays into a neighbouring communities foraging grounds and gets caught?
Within the communities bonds would be strong as seen in the tower but I'm talking inter-community disputes and conflicts.
As far as Europe's shootings go I can't think of a Major one in Britain since Raoul Moat. And that was three people killed. Just as a comparison in America there were 8775 murders using firearms (2011). The total for the UK in 2006? 49. When you even out our populations (Britain is about a sixth of your population) Britain is 294 killings to your 8775. Other European countries cannot be lumped together as each one has slightly different firearms policies. Anyway, this is not a firearms thread although if you want to start that discussion hit me up! I can't comment as to the people of texas as I haven't ever been there.

[reaper239]

A dictator could take control because of everybody having a gun. Him and his supporters just have to murder the leaders and BAM! Chaos. Who unites the colony? The dictator.
Pre determined battle stations is great but if you already have people manning the perimeter eg the guardians you have greater warning + a well trained force to repel at least the first few waves.
By that time the citizens are armed with more substantial fire arms than the handguns I suggested were allowed for defence of ones person.
As usual you see the best in people Reaper, which is by no means a fault. But especially when your survival is on the line people tend to be paranoid, territorial etc.
What happens the first time a community who is hard pushed for food strays into a neighbouring communities foraging grounds and gets caught?
Within the communities bonds would be strong as seen in the tower but I'm talking inter-community disputes and conflicts.
As far as Europe's shootings go I can't think of a Major one in Britain since Raoul Moat. And that was three people killed. Just as a comparison in America there were 8775 murders using firearms (2011). The total for the UK in 2006? 49. When you even out our populations (Britain is about a sixth of your population) Britain is 294 killings to your 8775. Other European countries cannot be lumped together as each one has slightly different firearms policies. Anyway, this is not a firearms thread although if you want to start that discussion hit me up! I can't comment as to the people of texas as I haven't ever been there.

there are no "leaders" per se, the representatives don't make the decisions, they relay the will of the people and the majority rules. they wouldn't be disparate communities of people walled off from each other, they would commune together and work together for the colony, the only differrence is that one man would be elected to represent so many people to the colony, as a means of maintaining order.

one final thing on guns (which are very relevant to the end of the world), more people may be shot in the US, but home invasions are much higher in the UK. here, if a man comes in my home by force, i can shoot him, in the UK you can be charged with murder for killing an intruder in your own home. you also look at the number of murders, but what you don't look at is defensive gun use, which some estimates put as high as 2.5 million per year. that's people using guns to defend their lives, even if it's something as simple as drawing down (most defensive gun uses never involve firing a gun and so go unreported).

[Leedo2502]

I'm with the dictator idea. People are notoriously short sighted and vote themselves into comfort and an easy life every chance they get.

In a non-crisis situation a total democracy is a horrible idea, in a crisis it'd end up being a suicide pact.