Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower?

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Holy Cow Yarri. I didn't expect that from you. I'm gonna respect ere'bodies thoughts here because it's like the Hatflields and the McCoys up in this joint.

I will say that this thread can be used as a good Psychology case study in Man's nature. Like "Lord of the Flies."

[nikvoodoo]

Look, once again: I, you, everyone in this place would have gone to check on the alarm. But once again, my point is he didn't even consider Hope before he left. He ran off. How hard is it to say anything to her as he's leaving the room?

I don't actually expect him to stay in the room, I presented that as another option available to him albeit a bad one. Angel did make the right decision to check on the alarm. He made the wrong choice by not even acknowledging Hope's existence when he left her.

And the reason I brought up what The Walking Dead podcast said was for a bit of levity. They were talking about the first three chapters, when I think most of us can agree Angel was incapable of leading. Had they listened to the whole show, they might have a different opinion. Sorry if it wasn't clear I was joking.

[j0be]

Look, once again: I, you, everyone in this place would have gone to check on the alarm. But once again, my point is he didn't even consider Hope before he left. He ran off. How hard is it to say anything to her as he's leaving the room?

I don't actually expect him to stay in the room, I presented that as another option available to him albeit a bad one. Angel did make the right decision to check on the alarm. He made the wrong choice by not even acknowledging Hope's existence when he left her.

And the reason I brought up what The Walking Dead podcast said was for a bit of levity. They were talking about the first three chapters, when I think most of us can agree Angel was incapable of leading. Had they listened to the whole show, they might have a different opinion. Sorry if it wasn't clear I was joking.

I don't think Angel is a good leader in most instances either, I just want to hop in and say the alarm may only register in the surveillance office. So it may have been that Angel was really the only one to respond. Whether he should have taken Hope or not is really my question. He didn't know what was happening to cause the alarm to go off, so maybe Angel thought the safest place for her was in the surveillance room. At least there he knew Pippin was chained up.

[mascaria]

Naw the alarm got louder when he opened the door so it wasn't a control room only alarm.

[COsurvivor]

Only way he can lead is if he had some "Stormtroopers" behind him like they have in The Colony.

[Zombiehead]

I didn't read every post in this thread but I'll comment on what I did read... I don't fault Angel for not saying "I'll be right back" or "Stay here!" or something along those lines to Hope. If anything we'd assume she'd stay put and be safe anyway. When the alarm went off in Chapter 11.3, Michael didn't say anything to Pegs, and she's his love interest! I felt it was a natural reaction for someone whose used to bolting into action at a moments notice. Does it make him any less worthy of running things? Nope. Is he worthy of leading the Tower? Nope.

[nikvoodoo]

When the alarm went off in Chapter 11.3, Michael didn't say anything to Pegs, and she's his love interest!

Pegs is an adult. Hope is a 14 year old girl. Children need to be instructed to do things or they run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Now Yarri.......

I've been debating if I was going to respond directly to your post or not....and obviously I've decided to or no one would be reading this....except mind readers.....get out of my head now or I'll start to imagine a nude Rush Limbaugh oil wrestling with a kangaroo to harass you. That's not a warning, it's a threat.

Ok, reality check. What has more importance in the grand scheme of things in this sort of situation? A blind 14 year old girl who can not ever be a fully functional member of the group, who will be dependent on food and shelter and protection FOREVER or the weapons and lives of the "functional" members of the tower? Mother nature is a bitch gentlemen as much as we do not like to see it or believe it folks like Hope will not survive in a future situation like this.

Once again, You/I/everyone agrees Angel made the right decision to leave Hope and go check the alarm. In my first or second post regarding this topic, I said I would do the same thing: Check the Alarm. This is not the point in dispute. The point in dispute is leaving the kid alone without acknowledging her in any way before he left. Listen to her voice when she realizes she's alone in the room with Pippin. Sounds pretty terrified. He left the room without saying a word to a frightened child. I, as everyone knows by now, think that's pretty shitty and not something a responsible adult should do. And I think it lends itself to the larger point I have against Angel leading in a post apocalyptic world: He still does not seem to view people as people, he still views them as commodities. And I do not think that flies in a demilitarized society.

Hope is dead either way by the bullet of the assassin or by her own blindness if the tower falls.

Oh come on, she survived a 30 foot fall before. How much harder can it be to survive a 50 foot fall.....[/tongue removed from cheek]

There are not enough people in the tower for a 2 man shift. Folks got to eat, sleep, and do other things to keep the grand old tower functional.

Well quite honestly with the amount of crap that has gone down (Kelly/Lizzy falling asleep, a thief stealing just about everything, the Tower betrayed, two guards attempting to run away and dying for it, Angel duped into leaving the room for the assassin...) I'd think it should be a pretty high priority to figure out how to rotate 2 people on guard duty because obviously one man shifts aren't cutting it.

Again I refer to the above statement. Is the life of one 14 year old blind girl more valued in this current situation then the lives of the physically fit and able?
I'll put this into perspective you might understand. We will use the Titanic's history for this example...

...When this disaster went to the senate hearings 5th officer Harold Lowe of the Titanic was questioned why he waited so long to go back

(Harold Lowe was in-charge of the only boat to go back for survivors for historical reference ) He waited over an hour to go back for survivors . His reasoning was that he had the responsibility for the lives with him in the boat. Had he gone back for survivors the lives in the boat would have been lost by the boat being swarmed by the 1000's of people in the water. He made a choice to save the survivors he had with him rather then lose all of them and save no one.

To which I respond with a quote from the British Inquiry's Final Report:

I heard much evidence as to the conduct of the boats after the "Titanic" sank and when there must have been many struggling people in the water, and I regret to say that in my opinion some, at all events, of the boats failed to attempt to save lives when they might have done so, and might have done so successfully. This was particularly the case of boat No. 1. (Hendrickson, 5011) (Symons, 11501, 11527) It may reasonably have been thought that the risk of making the attempt was too great; but it seems to me that if the attempt had been made by some of these boats it might have been the means of saving a few more lives.

Your Titanic anecdote is one I already know being the history geek that I am. And just to clarify: as Boat 14 was waiting for the screams to die down there was a volunteer crew of 7 people including Lowe. He dropped off his survivors in other life boats.

And I think it's actually very interesting your choosing Harold Lowe, because while he was out searching for bodies, he came upon a "Japanese" man who was apparently dead lashed to a frail raft, and said "What's the use? He's dead, likely, and if he isn't there's others better worth saving than a Jap." and he turned the boat away from the man. He eventually changed his mind, turned around, pulled the man aboard, and after he was revived the "Japanese" man quickly regained all his strength to the point he pushed an exhausted oar-man out of his seat and took over for him, prompting Lowe to state: "By jove, I'm ashamed of what I said about the little blighter. I'd save the likes o' him six times over, if I got the chance." (account from Charlotte Collyer). Turns out the dude was most likely a Chinese sailor named Fang Lang

Does this story sound familiar? The only thing missing is a shipsman named Saul yelling at him to turn around and go back to sound exactly like Angel/Saul/Burt in chapter 3. Knowing how history gets remembered (and hearing some other stories of Lowe's temper including the firing of shots from his lifeboat horizontally down the Titanic as it was being lowered), I'd bet the others in the boat did yell at him to turn back. But that's just an assumption and the reason why he turned back is lost to history.

Since we're talking about the Titanic, do you how many of the 3rd Class citizens died? The ones left to fend for themselves below decks? 75%. Only the crew lost a larger percentage and that was 76%. Do you recall Captain Stanley Lord of the SS Californian and his horrific botch job recognizing distress calls when informed of them by his Master at the helm? Both the US and British inquiries had scathing reports aimed at Stanley Lord and his inaction on that night which cost people their lives. The Californian, not the Carpathia should have been the first boat on the scene as they had been in contact and were closer to the Titanic.

I find it ironic you chose to illustrate leadership with an example of some of the worst leadership in the history of maritime disasters. Yes, Harold Lowe sticks out as an absolute hero, but both the U.S. and British Inquires agreed that there was a distinct lack of leadership and organization shown during the alerting and evacuation process of the passengers by the crew of the Titanic in addition to the royal screw up by the Californian cost lives.

It may be shitty to make decisions as a leader, but when you make a shitty decision, people can and will judge you for it. Right or wrong.

And just to be crystal clear: I do not care who was with Hope at the time. Regardless of who it was, if they acted in the exact way Angel did, they get this reaction from me. It just so happened to be Angel. And this is arguably the fourth time he's done something like this. Seems to be a pattern is all I'm saying.

[Zombiehead]

Pegs is an adult. Hope is a 14 year old girl. Children need to be instructed to do things or they run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

And what instructions could he give to a blind girl that doesn't know her way around the Tower yet? Tommy was around the same age and not once did I hear him go cluck.

[bequita]

Will Angel ever be a true leader in the Tower?

He's a pretty good Beta[besides obviously terrible decisions, he handles instructions well and can figure out problems on a small scale well]. Can we leave it at that? Why does everyone have to be a leader?

Too many chefs in the kitchen isn't going to make the spoiled carrots taste any better.

[ilanagl]

Pegs would be a better leader