Who's The Rat v2.0

[WestonWisdom]

Honestly man I don’t think we’re ever gonna see eye to eye. Wanna just call a truce and just wait and see?

Sure, my post count will stop rising so quickly, but sure.

[Ra1th]

Sure, my post count will stop rising so quickly, but sure.

woooooo no more writing up essays

[nikvoodoo]

And you should take notice. Angel was conflicted on the issue. He explained his reasoning, but he was on the fence about it. Had Michael said anything, I’m certain angel would have done as Michael said.

Wait wait....are you saying that Angel won't make decisions without Michael? And you say he's a leader? tsk tsk

Easy opponent? No, But the last big war I was in was two on one against nikvoodoo, and havecrowbarwilltravel, and I got destroyed.

Hmm....wonder why you're always defending Angel all by yourself...hmmmm....

I'm not restarting anything, I'm just messin' with you

[Ra1th]

Wait wait....are you saying that Angel won't make decisions without Michael? And you say he's a leader? tsk tsk



Hmm....wonder why you're always defending Angel all by yourself...hmmmm....

I'm not restarting anything, I'm just messin' with you

Actually if you look at that thread there were like 3 or 4 people who agreed with me... they just didnt really say or do anything until the major thing had blown over, and then they quipped in. people didnt wanna get stuck in the middle of a war i think

as for the angel part, I'd say Angel made a difficult decision in that situation and imo, Michael followed through on that decision. But angel was on the fence about it, so had michael or anyone said otherwise, he may have changed his mind. There have been times when Michael changed his mind due to Angel's input

[Snickelsox]

Ok so I am very new to the forums so please forgive me if I don't pick up on the subtle nuances... if any.

Also if you have not heard all the episodes then this will contain spoilers galore, so go listen instead.

And if this has already been discussed ( I checked and didn't see it) or the most recent episode debunked it then just move along.

I have been listening for about 9 months now and have heard every episode about 5 or 6 times and every time Burt seems more and more sketchy to me. I have a feeling that he was the rat, although he may not have wanted to be and may not have fully understood the consequences of his actions. There is now way he would have willingly sold out the tower, so whatever someone has over him must be huge. Anyway I have made a list of cases which if read with the assumption that Burt IS the rat make more sense.

1: When we first meet Burt he tells Saul and Angel that someone came in and raided his shop before he got there, and that they must have done it before. He never mentions that he was robbed before the zombie uprising so the raiders must have been someone he knew in say way. Plus he mentions that they got there before he did. I have owned a business and "normally" you do not want to live very far away from it, especially if your "stash" is there. So by what he told us Scratch must have gone to Eastern Bay, broke everyone out, made a convoy of sorts, drove back to the gun shop, and stolen all the guns before Burt got back and during the chaos? Not likely. Something else happened, not certain what did though.

2:In chapter 8 when Latch and Scratch are at the tower "asking for sugar" Michael is freaking out asking how this happened and Burt it freaking out as well and very forcefully blaming Saul. Scratch admits that they did follow Saul but that could have just been to keep Burt's cover. While this example is kinda weak it all plays into me not trusting him.

3: Now here we start with the good stuff. In the Chapter R&R they are discussing having a party and Burt is very much against it. With good reason, his heart is in the right place but again someone must have something over him. He says to Michael " Michael you're in for a big I told you so." He could just be talking about the zombies but if he knew something was about to go down then he would have said the same thing. Maybe another on of those double meanings.

4: Same chapter, R&R. After Bill made his scene in the party Burt rushes up from the guard room to see if everything is alright. He mentions that Tommy was in there now but those two were the ONLY people on guard duty that night before everything went to hell. Everyone else was having a good time drinking it up, while Burt was reluctantly informing the Mallers what was going on.

5: Same chapter R&R. Just a small thing but as soon as Bill Sees Burt he asks him "how the hell are ya?" and Burt responded "Hey how you been?" They should NOT be all buddy buddy since the last time they interacted that we know about was with a bullet. And since Bill stole the supplies maybe they were working together?

6:The war. There are a few big things and a few little ones, Ill roll the little ones into this point. "Before the Mallers attacked Burt said " There next step will be the front door." Possibly he knew that from basic strategy or he could have known the Mallers plan. He also said "You never know with this group." Tiny I know but he said it in such a way that it could have been perceived as if he knew more about them than the rest. I should mention again, because he did fight for the Tower in this chapter, that I do not think Burt wanted to be the rat, he was just forced into it.

7:The War. When they are on the radio talking with the Mallers and Burt steps up to talk Durai (sp?) says " Burt, nice to finally meet you. I have heard so much about you." This could have been in reference to the tanker but it could just as easily been a reference to him being an informant for the Mallers because all scratch knew before was that he was named Burt, he owned the gun store, he was a good shot, and that he was old. It sounds from Durai's voice that he knew quite a bit more than that, even though he mentioned Burt's shooting ability.

8: The War. As some Mallers were sneaking their way on to the Tower Burt says that he will go on the balcony and jump down to take them out. "on the out side it will look like one of them." It did look like one of them because it WAS one of them. The Mallers could obviously see well enough to shoot at some people on the windows and they would have notices his bald head in the firelight. A little joke there but in all reality he would not have even come up with the idea if he was not sure they would not shoot him.

9: Separate Dying Embers. After Burt tries to rally everyone and is pretty much rejected he goes on a quest to find some ammo. This is interesting because Burt is smart enough to know that the Zombies would get him if all he had was a few rounds. It is possible that he thought the Mallers would still be around and would shelter him, even if he never wanted to help them. He knew he would be fine alone because he would not actually be alone.

10: Separate Dying embers. Burt says "All I've ever done since I got here was listen to somebody else tell me what to do!" Another double meaning referring to Michael AND the Mallers possibly?

And that is pretty much it for why I think he is the rat. If you think I am wrong, cool. If you think I'm right, cool. Either way I would love to hear another persons take on this and hopefully I am reading WAY too much into somethings because I don't want this to be true.

-Snickelsox

P.S. Please excuse any typos, my keybard is not working so well right now... and I don't know how to spell :P

[Boomstick]

Interesting theory, definitely a possibility.My only qualm, so to speak, is that Burt killed 4 or 5 mallers @least during the fight @ the tower. HE even had to double tap one of the mallers. If he was one of the mallers wouldn't he just fired some shots and let them go. Thoughts?

[Snickelsox]

Well he did not want to be the rat, he was "playing" the side of the mallers while wanting to be on the side of the Tower for that particular scenario. Its the same for Bill, why did he help the tower after he hurt it?

[nikvoodoo]

Well he did not want to be the rat, he was "playing" the side of the mallers while wanting to be on the side of the Tower for that particular scenario. Its the same for Bill, why did he help the tower after he hurt it?

But how do you know the stolen items aren't planted there in the elevator to make Bill look guilty? Besides, Bill never got a shot off when he came downstairs.

[Snickelsox]

Ok so that is a great point and one I had not thought about. While I do not personally think that Bill was set up, mainly because it makes my theory of Burt being the rat a lot less clean, it still does fit for what I think. What it means for my theory however is that there was more than one rat. This could only work in two ways though.

The first is that Burt was working directly with the rat. He could have been the "brains" or the other rat could have been blackmailing him to make him work with the Mallers. If Burt was in fact the "brains" then that would make him a lot more evil than I thought. He would have to be a very good schemer and a very good liar.

The other way that two rats would have worked is if they were given instruction independently of each other. A kind of Right hand not knowing what the left was doing scenario. I like this more because it still means that Burt could have been doing these things reluctantly and not purposefully.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if Burt was evil and DID set up Bill somehow then Bill's death would have been the perfect cover for Burt. Bill would have taken the blame and the sympathy that Burt showed would have made him seem like the least likely suspect and since everyone thought that Bill was the rat and he was dead.

Those two only work if Bill did not steal the food and ammo and was framed.There would still be many questions, how did someone else get the keys? Why would they help the Mallers? And we may never know those, that is if Burt is the rat.

One last thing is that the "chummyness" between Bill and Burt at the party would have made sense if they were working together in some fashion. I would love to hear what anyone thinks about this, yay or nay.

-Snickelsox

[nikvoodoo]

I'll take it one point at a time, and hopefully you will see the light!!!

Ok so that is a great point and one I had not thought about. While I do not personally think that Bill was set up, mainly because it makes my theory of Burt being the rat a lot less clean, it still does fit for what I think. What it means for my theory however is that there was more than one rat. This could only work in two ways though.

Aww, don't be afraid of your theories getting dirty....that's all that happens on here! We all throw dirt at each others theories until we start to question everything about ourselves!

The first is that Burt was working directly with the rat. He could have been the "brains" or the other rat could have been blackmailing him to make him work with the Mallers. If Burt was in fact the "brains" then that would make him a lot more evil than I thought. He would have to be a very good schemer and a very good liar.

Burt is no "brains" of any operation. Burt couldn't brain himself out of a paper bag...or something. Anyway, he's not a natural brain type, he's a doer. He's the one that makes things happen.

The other way that two rats would have worked is if they were given instruction independently of each other. A kind of Right hand not knowing what the left was doing scenario. I like this more because it still means that Burt could have been doing these things reluctantly and not purposefully.

But didn't the ammo lock up and store get ransacked around the same time? You know...when Burt wasn't even in the Tower? And along those lines, if Burt's the rat, why does he steal from his own stockpile? Wouldn't he want as much ammo as possible to take down the Tower from the inside?

Another thing to keep in mind is that if Burt was evil and DID set up Bill somehow then Bill's death would have been the perfect cover for Burt. Bill would have taken the blame and the sympathy that Burt showed would have made him seem like the least likely suspect and since everyone thought that Bill was the rat and he was dead.

Bill's death was perfect for whomever the rat is. Even if the Rat didn't steal things and Bill did, Bill takes the rap for all of it.

Those two only work if Bill did not steal the food and ammo and was framed.There would still be many questions, how did someone else get the keys? Why would they help the Mallers? And we may never know those, that is if Burt is the rat.

Here's the thing: So much had to happen when Burt wasn't there. I really don't think Burt can be the rat. He wasn't there for any of the ratlike activities.

One last thing is that the "chummyness" between Bill and Burt at the party would have made sense if they were working together in some fashion. I would love to hear what anyone thinks about this, yay or nay.

Bill was being chummy with everyone. And people of similar generations would tend to gravitate towards each other because they would have common things to talk about and common experiences.

In general, you have good points, but I don't think there's any way Burt is the rat. Especially going back to your idea that Burt planned the raid and knew the people who robbed him. Not really. I betcha if I owned a store called Locked and Loaded and a zombie apocalypse broke out, I'd be shocked if my store didn't get raided. I wouldn't have to know any of them. I owned a gun store. That's more than enough for people to know. That's why Angel and Saul went there in the first place.