Chapter 25- Inadequate Strength part 2

[nikvoodoo]

Perhaps alpha was the incorrect term to use. What I meant by it was nothing more than both are very strong willed and opinionated. Despite different methods, both look after their "pack" and make decisions for their well being. I still feel that michael is better suited to the task of leading than Burt is. Burt knows it now, but from chapter 3 until 22 Burt was too stubborn to admit it.

Should burt in fact be alive, I'm interested to see how his and michael's relationship shakes out.

[Grognaurd]

Interesting as always Nik. Here comes the ol' better leader.

Michael (Old)
Angel
Burt
Michael (New)
Bouncing Burt
Winged Angel

I think Michael has better charism / tactics.
Burt has far more Combat and Gunplay experience as well as Strategic Sense. Probably because of experience / rank. Gunnery Sgt Burt Scott vs Sgt Michael Cross.
I never served, nasty asthma and allergies, but I want to give a special shoutout and thank you for your service to those that are or have.

Anyway, Gunny is like company level, I think. Say, 100 to 150 people.
Just Sgt is a lot lower like Squad (8-12) or half squad / fire team (4-6)
I am sure there is someone who knows this a lot better than I do and correct it.

Burt is action. Burt will throw the first punch
Michael is reaction setting up the counter-punch.

As the salve owner said to the Gladiator School Owner in Gladiator...
Some are Good for dieing and some are good for Fighting. You, me thinks, need both.

Or something like that.

The emphasis is on the You, me thinks, need both.

[Tandem25]

Just curious, and a way to further this discussion, what qualities make either one an alpha?

I don't see either as true Alphas. They are/were Betas reluctantly put in the Alpha position. I believe that if given the chances to follow a "good" and in Michael's case, righteous Alpha they would both follow obediently. That is if Bert is still alive...

Good Episode. And, as always, I'm looking forward to the next.

[Cabbage Patch]

I want to give Kelly props for stepping up in this episode. No whining, no venting, took the initiative by setting up security on the high ground, and held the fort during Michael's (well-deserved and overdue) meltdown. She's come a long way! I can't help wondering where her character is going--group leader? remorseless zombie hunter? the next fatality, since she's completed her story arc?

[dontkillburt]

And by the way:
Hey KC! Can you quit fucking around and get Burt back into the story, please?! We've been waiting nearly five months to find out what happened to Shirley!!!

These were my thoughts exactly when Burt went AWOL in part 1. Now, with still no update on Burt (or Shirley) after part 2, KC has me frothing at the mouth on his status. But that's okay. I expect a big timer in part 3, when Burt says..."WTF...where am it, and where the hell is Shirley?". I will be happy with that.

For now though, I can live through everyone else's issues, including Saul & Victor's Abbott & Costello routine (the only question being: are they both alpha males or are they both just suffering from PMI?). And then there is Michael. His decision to okay a head-trauma'd Riley run off and take a smoke break then stopping a consoling Pegs (Riley's best and maybe only remaining friend) to "leave her be." The soap continues as Michael tells Saul's mom that both he and Liz were both dead with the proclaimation that "there is no one still alive back there" during his self-pity attack. job. Maybe IT IS the night goggles, Michael, take them off.

Oh boy...you are right litmaster...I can't wait for Burt to get back in action. He will get himself into the mallers arsenal real soon. He probably has a copy of the Locked and Loaded inventory sheet in his back pocket and knows what is missing.

[nikvoodoo]

I don't see either as true Alphas. They are/were Betas reluctantly put in the Alpha position. I believe that if given the chances to follow a "good" and in Michael's case, righteous Alpha they would both follow obediently. That is if Bert is still alive...

Good Episode. And, as always, I'm looking forward to the next.

I can see the burt beta qualities, and also in new mopey-michael. But remember when michael first relinquished control he was mad that he lost whatever he had going and he was done there. That screams alpha personality to me.

But you are right in saying neither is a true alpha. Michael is far closer.

[IamPaul]

My theory. Maybe WA's first suicide, by Riley. Just a crazy idea. Great episode!

[nikvoodoo]

So here's a holy shit wtf is wrong with us moments......

Did anyone look at the artwork for part 2? Anyone else see the big white blob of Behemoth??!! and apologies if it got mentioned in the chatbox right after.....you didn't post it in here....so it doesn't count!

I think the depiction by the artist is close to the idea I was thinking of all along... Mr. Hyde from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Really really big in the torso, smallish head...and we can't really see its legs.

[Hellbringer]

The coyotes here will come pretty close to people. Like especially on bike trails and stuff. You wont see 'em during the day, but early morning and late at night, it's not an irregular to see one. The big reason is cause people just built their houses all over coyote territory so they're still around. Like you'll see warnings posted about letting animals out at night, cause sometimes coyotes kill em

Here's a Fort Irwin story that has a coyote in it for youze guys. We were out on the machine gun range testing out our weapons, and we had a coyote come up on our targets while we were shooting. Of course, we didn't know it until we walked down the firing lanes to check our targets for hits and misses and that's when we came up on the coyote body. So I'd say that coyotes in the Death Valley area are pretty gutsy when it comes to people. (I might have relayed this story before on this board before, but with more details. I can't remember; I'm getting too old these days.)

[Pikepaw]

I'll weigh in on the alpha dog issue a little bit. Saul and Victor are not alphas, they are doers. Neither one is a leader, they are the guys that get stuff done. Gunhands, action guys, whatever you want to call it. That I think is one of the reasons they are so frustrated. These are not the guys who have big picture plan or strategy. In the moment tactics, they can create and adapt to but they don't have much forethought. Saul's recklessness is because he doesn't think things through, he just goes to the next step because it is all he can see. Victor is used to be a loyal hound, following orders. They are both stubborn and think for themselves, because being considered a mindless follower is what these guys hate most.

Michael is pretty close to an alpha once he establishes himself. In Chapter 2, Pegs and Riley begin to look to Michael as the leader right away without being told who is in charge. He needs to correct them that Angel is the officer. Once Michael returns from the colony everyone naturally looks to him as the leader. The second that Michael hears about Lizzie being kicked out, he falls back into leader mode very naturally. But Michael does have weaknesses and confidence issues, keeping him from being a perfect alpha. However it does make him a complex and interesting character.

Burt falls in strange place in between doer and leader. He would be happy to be a doer, but when he thinks he has a better idea he will voice it. Unfortunately this happens at every meeting. I think Burt's problem, which he states is that he is used to military leadership. Marines he can lead, but this is a group of civilians and they function different. It is VERY different to lead those two mindsets of people. Also Burt had to lead back in Vietnam, so he may be a little rusty. Plus his long funk after Shirley's death hasn't done much for Burt's people skills. He tells Saul that he essentially sat around watching movies for months. I don't think leadership abilities, and people skills came back as easily as sharpshooting