How do you put a whole country on stand-by?

Hi,

as extraordinary good as WA is, there are several things I can not explain, mainly in terms of infrastructure. The U.S. were not in hibernation when the zombie apocalypse broke out in May 2009. For example, there are about 65 nuclear power plants on U.S. territory, each one of them depends on daily maintenance by large group of specialists. Through the sheer force of the pandemie, I do not think that there has been enough time to shut down this plants. Is there not a rather high probability, that the New England states are radioactively contaminated due to the spatial close of this plants? For how long has there been not maintenance - nearly seven months? I guess that this should worry somebody. Especially if your currently located in the vicinity of Denver.

Furthermore, what about the (petro-)chemical industry, the mining companies and so on. They require rather large amounts of environmentally harmful substances. But it is much more serious - they have to store them. Do not get me wrong, I am no a radical environmentalist. But if I were in the same situation, I would be worried about whats in the water that I drink every day.

I think that these aspects have not come up yet. So what are your thoughts on this?

Michael

Well, I guess ... It all went South ... dunDUN... DUUNNNNNNNN!

No, kidding.

In the WA universe this is probably not dealt with in order to keep the story and situation focussed. I think it could be safe to assume that most facility would have kind of automated shutdown systems that kicked in right in time ...

But in general I agree with you: Considering the fast results of things going wrong is a maddening vision ...

Hm, I have considered automated shutdown systems as well. However, how good will the control systems work if they are "operated" by zombie who carries a steel rod?

Why would a zombie carry a rod of steel around? I think zeds would look for some delicious food; and if there is none available, they would just go on and search at different locations. Thus the facility would be left alone.
And yes: Even a nuclear powerplant in shut down provides a lot of danger; there needs to be no less then a simple leakage in the water-circulation, or pumps just need to fail to operate ... And there you go ...
Besides: Don't forget that there are plenty of nuclear power plants at the West Coast of the USA as well; and don't you forget the navy ships with nuclear power plants, some of which are stationed at the West Coast as well ... !

It probably helps that we spent the first six months after Z-Day focused in Los Angeles on the West Coast of the United States. In general, the weather comes in from the West and blows East. The Pacific Northwest could burn, the Mid-West could implode and the East Coast could melt down with no impact on Los Angeles. The first indication that LA would have of the problems elsewhere wouldn't happen until the debris cloud has traveled all the way around the globe and approaches from the West.

Of course, that doesn't protect our heroes from the nuke plants, refineries or industrial plants in Southern California, or the massive forest fires that are a fact of life in SoCal every summer. It doesn't mean nothing happened. For all we know there were problems, the prevailing winds blew the results East and it didn't have enough impact to merit reference in the story.

In terms of power plants that are nuclear, there is a fair bit to consider with those. What happens if we just walk away from them? The spent rods take like 4 years to cool down. In what I've found from my research, there would be contamination in areas, but no huge explosions per se. in theory. Would create a sort of "Dead Zone" around them, with contamination.

The closest to LA is San Onofre. For story purposes I considered whoever might be there, seeing what's going on in the outside world, start going into a safe-shutdown mode to minimize the potential leak of radiation. Being somewhat far from civilization and having well armed guards, Nuclear plants have the capabilities to withstand a decent attack.

That's just my 2 cents on it. It's never come up in the story, but just something I've considered.

Oh, and for Boulder, and any reactors? Here's a map for any worse case scenarios:

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Originally Posted by Kc

It's never come up in the story, but just something I've considered.

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Rep +1 ... That's awesome. :D

I totally agree with that. :)

Coming from a relatively small country compared to the just huge U.S. territory, a single meltdown would render large areas uninhabitable in my country. Needless to say, a meltdown or maximum credible accident would be a devastating blow to any country.

Well it's nice to know that if the shit ever does hit the fan, I'm most likely fucked from radiation....wonderful.

Wow. Just considering ... Since Germany is in the so-called "west-wind-zone" ... Am just imagining what a major series of meltdowns at the East Coast of the US would mean for us ... It really is hard to wrap ones mind around this ... The picture added by Kc is just incredible ...
YetAnotherBloodyCheek: Did you know that you live only about 75mi away from your next nuclear power plant - Grohnde!

@Liam: Great news indeed! :-( According to Google Maps, you will become a fallout boy first. But of course I would offer you a place of shelter at least.

I was wrong, there is no active nuclear facility in Colorado, sorry!

One last thing. What happened to the crews of the nuclear powered submarines? I mean, a submarine crew is hermetically sealed off from the outside world. So might there be a chance for at least some subs still operating?

1. Google Maps is wrong,
2. the moment I am contaminated you never would let me in (besides: I still don't have your address, mate),
3. luckily my place holds one of the few final storages for nuclear waste; thus I KNOW where I would end up in case of ...
But somehow this topic is way too brutal to make fun off ...

Since we have covered nuclear fallout in case something epic would happen, what with the fallout of other facilities, especially from heavy petro-chemical industries?

All the best!
Liam

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Originally Posted by LiamKerrington

Wow. Just considering ... Since Germany is in the so-called "west-wind-zone" ... Am just imagining what a major series of meltdowns at the East Coast of the US would mean for us ... It really is hard to wrap ones mind around this ... The picture added by Kc is just incredible ...

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In the book "Without Warning", by John Birmingham, there is an incident that eliminates the population of the United States, Canada and Mexico. The book goes into graphic detail about the environmental impact on Western Europe of the resulting nuclear meltdowns, refinery fires, and the general collapse of the North America. There is a particularly graphic section describing public works crews in Paris, using brooms to sweep streets that are covered by toxic ash and lined with dead trees, while birds fall out of the sky around them.

@Cabbage Patch: Thank you for the book recommendation. Merci.:)

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Originally Posted by YetAnotherBloodyCheek

I was wrong, there is no active nuclear facility in Colorado, sorry!

One last thing. What happened to the crews of the nuclear powered submarines? I mean, a submarine crew is hermetically sealed off from the outside world. So might there be a chance for at least some subs still operating?

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I'd say the chance of that being true is high. I don't know how much a sub stores in terms of supplies though. At this point, a sub that left for a mission/training/patrol etc on May 9 would have been out to sea for 7 months. That has got to be a long time to be out there without a chance to resupply.

However, as we seem to think that the event is centered around the Ring of Fire, subs may not be safe in the Pacific Ocean. We don't know how the transformation happens or how it is transmitted to "Patient 0" in each location. Subs may have been affected first for all we know because of their depth and proximity to the Earth's core. Likely? Not really, but you never know.

History Channel did an excellent job covering this and several other questions that would arise in a situation like this in their special Life After People. I saw it a couple of years ago so I don't remember what they said specifically about Nuclear Reactors but I do know they covered them. The series focused on what would happen to the world if human kind disappeared from the face of the Earth while the show avoided discussing a specific cause. So it was an in depth look at what would happen after shit hit the fan and we failed to survive as a species. Check out the link, I'm sure you can find a free version to watch online some where.

@nikvoodoo: Yes, food rations will be the limiting factor of course. It is disturbing how extensive the communication blackout is actually.

Besides, I guess that you must have already accumulated a lot of bad karma if you are orbiting earth while hell breaks lose on the planet, like Gennady Padalka and Michael R. Barratt onboard the International Space Station (see Expedition 19 which start in March 2009). What would you do if your chances of returning to earth are exactly zero? :mad:

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Originally Posted by YetAnotherBloodyCheek

@nikvoodoo: Yes, food rations will be the limiting factor of course. It is disturbing how extensive the communication blackout is actually.

Besides, I guess that you must have already accumulated a lot of bad karma if you are orbiting earth while hell breaks lose on the planet, like Gennady Padalka and Michael R. Barratt onboard the International Space Station (see Expedition 19 which start in March 2009). What would you do if your chances of returning to earth are exactly zero? :mad:

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Put on a space suit and hope for the best on reentry?

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Originally Posted by YetAnotherBloodyCheek

@nikvoodoo: Yes, food rations will be the limiting factor of course. It is disturbing how extensive the communication blackout is actually.

Besides, I guess that you must have already accumulated a lot of bad karma if you are orbiting earth while hell breaks lose on the planet, like Gennady Padalka and Michael R. Barratt onboard the International Space Station (see Expedition 19 which start in March 2009). What would you do if your chances of returning to earth are exactly zero? :mad:

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Why does the finale of "Dark Star" cross my mind ... ?

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Originally Posted by HardKor

Well it's nice to know that if the shit ever does hit the fan, I'm most likely fucked from radiation....wonderful.

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right there with ya kor.....radiated high five!

I'll pose a question to this thread....

Don't these things have fail safe programs that shut down the plant in cases of disaster?

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Originally Posted by yarri

I'll pose a question to this thread....

Don't these things have fail safe programs that shut down the plant in cases of disaster?

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They're not permanent fail safes, and many of them require power to operate. They're not designed for people to completely walk away.

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Originally Posted by Kc

They're not permanent fail safes, and many of them require power to operate. They're not designed for people to completely walk away.

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but wouldn't power plants also have back up generators? Things to keep the backup systems active. I know our hospitals do.

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Originally Posted by yarri

but wouldn't power plants also have back up generators? Things to keep the backup systems active. I know our hospitals do.

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Yes. But for how long? What happens when they run out of fuel?

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Originally Posted by Kc

Yes. But for how long? What happens when they run out of fuel?

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the machines turn off and the system goes into shut down. I would hope that things like Chernobyl would have got the techs to figure out a way to shut down a system without human help.

But then again, I'm a nurse not a tech person. I understand the human machine better then I do machine machines...

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Originally Posted by yarri

the machines turn off and the system goes into shut down. I would hope that things like Chernobyl would have got the techs to figure out a way to shut down a system without human help.

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Sadly, no. But they won't react the same way as the elephant foot of Chernobyl, but the water coolant must be pumped in, and that requires power from backup generators. They could supply their own power, but without the draw from other power stations going down, it'd go into a sort of "gray" state where it doesn't output power otherwise it'd melt the lines.

At least that's what all my research concluded. I might be wrong, but that's what I found.

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Originally Posted by Kc

Sadly, no. But they won't react the same way as the elephant foot of Chernobyl, but the water coolant must be pumped in, and that requires power from backup generators. They could supply their own power, but without the draw from other power stations going down, it'd go into a sort of "gray" state where it doesn't output power otherwise it'd melt the lines.

At least that's what all my research concluded. I might be wrong, but that's what I found.

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It sounds very ominous, how long can a plant remain in a "gray" state?

@yarri: A nuclear plant is one the most sophisticated machines every created by humanity. However, one of the challenges is the fact that in order to operate it, you will have to deal with nondeterministic radioactive decay processes over a long period of time. In the nature of subatomic things, a lot can go wrong. And let's face it, you can not predict what is next on Mr atomic nucleus' mind. The only option you have is to reduce risks by applying an awful lot of fault tolerant protection devices, sensors on so. Nevertheless, this only reduces just the probabilities of failure you are already aware of. If something unexpected happens, well, you should better cross your fingers for the people in charge. Otherwise, the following event might be compared to the partial meltdown in Three Mile Island, Chernobyl or Fukushima later on.

To sum it up, you can not put a nuclear plan in a "gray" state, at least not with zero preparation time.

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Originally Posted by LiamKerrington

Why does the finale of "Dark Star" cross my mind ... ?

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@Liam: Yeah! Maybe listening to Tom Schilling's "Major Tom" would be appropriate as well. :yay:

Hi there,

I know, it is only wikipedia ... ANd who really know how reliable or independent the authors of such articles really are ... But nevertheless: there is an article about safety-measures for a nuclear power plant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_safety_systems

Enjoy reading. It is quite a long article about it ...

All the best!
Liam

Yes, it's a good article. But the measures only reduce the risk.

Here's another article from Wikipedia which might unease you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ono...rating_Station

so correct me if im wrong here, but the thing that went down with the plant in japan could happen pretty much anytime...basically the water in the reactors boiled off and they had to do major damage control to keep it from becoming waaaaaaaay worse than it was.

now that was something as simple as routine maintence...so say we just walk away from every place on the east coast...theres literally nothing to stop something like that from going the way japan could have...i say everyplace from me eastward is now glowing green(in the w/a-verse)

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Originally Posted by YetAnotherBloodyCheek

@yarri: A nuclear plant is one the most sophisticated machines every created by humanity. However, one of the challenges is the fact that in order to operate it, you will have to deal with nondeterministic radioactive decay processes over a long period of time. In the nature of subatomic things, a lot can go wrong. And let's face it, you can not predict what is next on Mr atomic nucleus' mind. The only option you have is to reduce risks by applying an awful lot of fault tolerant protection devices, sensors on so. Nevertheless, this only reduces just the probabilities of failure you are already aware of. If something unexpected happens, well, you should better cross your fingers for the people in charge. Otherwise, the following event might be compared to the partial meltdown in Three Mile Island, Chernobyl or Fukushima later on.

To sum it up, you can not put a nuclear plan in a "gray" state, at least not with zero preparation time.

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actually...this completely hits the nail on the head...even if you just shut a plant down...im doubtful in an apocalypse scenario there will be enough generator power(or people power to ensure it happens...boom) we are the screwed