I mean, he may be a betrayer, but at least he took out Dick Van Dyke (aka Pippin). Just a thought....
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I mean, he may be a betrayer, but at least he took out Dick Van Dyke (aka Pippin). Just a thought....
I will always love Kalani. I hated him at the start, but as time went on he became one of my favourite characters. His adventure with Angel solidified that for me. That motherfucker gets a pass. A superstar 'I'm a big damn hero' pass.
<3 Kalani - Forever Surfing <3
As much as I like Kalani as the complex character he is/was: no. He can't get a pass. He killed Pippin, he essentially lead to the deaths of Bill, Tommy, a pair of red shirts, and nearly destroyed the Tower.
You can sympathize with his plight. You can empathize with a parent wanting his child back...but you can't give him a pass.
In all fairness, I would've shot Pippen too. ;)
I certainly can agree that he shouldn't get a pass, but I do feel pretty bad for the him. Coming from the First Tower, he was so certain that the comparatively shoddy defense set up by Cross & Co. was destined to fall. What harm would it do to push the ball along for a quick and painless transfer of power to get Hannah back?
Poor guy. Had no idea the havoc he was about to unleash. I've still got to like him, regardless of all the havoc he caused. Though he could never make amends for his actions, I give him a lot of credit for trying.
You're must be joking. He paid for his sins with his life. He died trying to save everyone he possibly could. Pippin was a dirtbag who deserved to die. As far as the superfluous characters that died in the attacks as a result of Kalani's actions, it's likely they would have died anyway. The guy was doing what was right: anything and everything he could to save his daughter. Truth be told, family over strangers ANY day of the week. I don't care how friendly they are. I would have put a bullet in any one of them if I were in his position and not lose a minute of sleep over it. Not if it meant getting my child back safe.
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Originally Posted by Osiris
I have to agree with this. Utterly, agree with this. My child before a friend in any situation, anytime, anywhere, and anyplace. My flesh and blood comes first. In the end he tried to make stuff right. He died trying. It was valiant and took serious courage to stare death in the face and ram that helo into a gas tanker knowing it was going to be a terrible death.
Kalani gets a pass
Kalani was at first a vilian for the tower but became their savior. He did unknowing lead to the deaths of three tower members and almost killed everyone however, without Kalani no one would have need able to fly away on the helicopter without him teaching Pegs. Kalani also bought the tower enough time for some people to escape by crashing his helicopter into the tanker sacrificing himself. Also beware Kalani was not working with Scratch or the Maulers out of personal choice but because they had his seventeen year old daughter and after the first attack on the tower stopped all communication with the Maulers thus putting the tower residence before his own daughter. In the end Kalani's self sacrifice does in deed make up for his past.
Btw Bill was kinda a dick and a security anyways.
I would give him a pass. To be honest, I would probably have done the same thing. When comparing the lives of people you don't know and/or even like and the most important person in your life, people get a pass for being selfish in my book. Its human nature.
I never really disliked Pippin that much before the recent episodes. He doesn't get a pass, and Kalani was a hero for shooting him (Pippin would probably have done the same to the Tower that Kalani did, so...even?)
Yeah. You wouldn't want to be selfish and try and preserve the life of your child. That would just be fucking selfish.
No, they died specifically because of Kalani. HE killed every single person that has died because of the attack by the mallers. Had he not lead them there, had he not betrayed them, had he not made damn sure that they couldn't fight back they all died. Would they have died later on? Maybe. All we know is that they ARE dead because of the actions of Kalani. Yes, protect your child and all, but only a moron would think that they Mallers would hold up their end of the deal. Kalani was stupid for believing they would and because of that everything that sits now is because of him. He can never be forgiven for what he did, fighting for his daughter or not. The second they took Hanna away from him, she was as good as dead. Only an idiot (in his shoes, not anyone here) would think otherwise and his actions are the sole reason everyone that is dead or missing is gone. The only reason. Crashing the helo into the rig wasn't because of his desire to save everyone, he said that he barely tolerated everyone even after all the work they were doing to try and save as many people as they could. Kalani was looking out for himself and Hanna the whole time, no one else. Thinking he could save Hanna was complete stupidity. He saw how they treated everyone and for cripes sake they were all murders and violent criminals, how could he possibly think they would hold up their end of the deal? He saw first hand what they were capable of, Scratch was hell bent on killing every single one of the Tower residents because Pegs killed her brother in self defense. Scratch attacked innocent people and they merely defended themselves and she goes on a murderous rampage. Kalani should have known right then that Hanna was as good as dead. He was an irrational, idiotic, backstabbing moron and he deserved what he got. Good riddance to him, they were vastly better off before he showed up. Hell, they saved his life at the risk of their own at the Arena and he paid them back with betrayal. Kid or no kid, he was a dangerous idiot that got almost everyone killed while insulting them and plotting behind their backs. He justly died, but he should have suffered for it in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
So what would you do if you were in his place do? Write her off?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
@ Ray
I would say it is incorrect to blame Kalani for everyone that died in Michaels tower. Perhaps Tommy, Bill, and Ryan's death can be attributed to Kalani, but not the others. When the tower came under attack for the second and final time, that was no fault of Kalani's. That was Scratch being vengeful.
I can sense your disgust with Kalani and I agree with you on some points, but I don't see it as black and white as you do.
That wasn't judgmental at all. As far your staunch advocacy for the tower being better off without him, well to be honest you're completely wrong. Without Kalani they never would have had the ability to fly. Without the ability to fly there would be no escape. War was coming to the Tower regardless of Kalani's actions. The Mallers would have found them eventually and likely the loss of life would be far greater had Kalani not taught someone to fly the other helicopter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
You can claim that Pegs acted out of self-defence, killing Latch, but that's exactly what Kalani was doing. Acting to defend his daughter with the hope of seeing her again. Whether or not you believe he was stupid is moot. I say the same for Pegs, Michael, Saul, Angel, Burt... ANYONE who made a rash decision that resulted in the odds being further stacked against the Tower. Everyone knows the moment that bad blood developed between The Tower and The Mallers. The moment when Burt popped off a shot at a mirror in an attempt to piss higher on the tree than Scratch. Nobody likes a show-off. Talk about a lack of rational thought, foresight and judgment.
Kalani may have deceived the people in the Tower, but in all honesty he had no stake in that world. He was doing what he had to do--through coercion--in order to at least try and ensure the safety of his child. Saying he was stupid for even trying shows that you a) have no children of your own and if you do would trip them to escape from anything wanting to eat you and b) zero sense of loyalty to your own family.
Kalani gave the Tower a means of escaping the danger the Mallers presented and went further by dying to give them a chance. Say what you want, but if he was truly a piece of shit he would have taken off the moment everyone else was out of the bird. That's a fact. He wouldn't have sat on top of the tower waiting to cart all their asses to safety, leaving his daughter behind in the process.
I'm agreeing with Osiris and yarri on this one...
While Tommy, Bill, and Ryan's deaths are Kalani's fault, he was only trying to save his daughter, and he probably didn't think that the War would even occur.
Kalani was probably hoping that because everyone would be drunk as sh*t or asleep, that the takeover would be relatively quiet and the new regime set up by the time morning came...but that's not what happened.
As for killing Pippin, he obviously did it because he didn't want any more people to be hurt, that and Pippin was an a$$hole. (I seriously laughed aloud when Kalani mutters "F*ck you wanker." I want to hear him say that right before he shoots him...that would be hilarious).
I believe he more than made up for it by training Pegs to fly, ensuring that they would have an alternate means of escape...oh, and sacrificing himself so that the few who did escape could.
I wasn't crazy about Kalani's character until these later chapters, but my mind has been changed since, albeit everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Some are going to see him as a hero, others will see him as a murderer. The same could be said about Scratch, when it comes down to it (not that I think she's a hero...btw).
I think overall, the good Kalani did outweighs the evil he caused.
Kalani was bad. He was bad because they had his daughter. Any parent would do the same to protect their baby. This doesnt justify his actions as right. It justifies him as being a loving father who was trying to protect his child. His death justified him somewhat but he still did bad things. He knew and thus chose the path to make himself useful to the people he had betrayed. He was still a bad guy. If i was put in that situation I'd off as many people as I had to to keep my child alive. Any parent worth using our air would. That doesnt make one a saint. They still have to live with their actions. Kalani's death was how he atoned for his transgressions.
This thread should have had a poll.
Kalani betrayed the Tower. For that, I will never give him a pass. Hannah's fate was sealed the moment the Mallers took her away. That is no excuse. And even if it was, the better thing to do would've been to tell the Tower (or the first group) about what was going on, and prepare them to fight back. Instead, he took the chickenshit way out and people got killed.
As for being the saviour of the Tower, I suppose that's true. If Kalani had never come along, and IF the Mallers didn't kill them all (that's a really big if.), then they would have lasted maybe a year, maybe two. They would have petered out , losing one here, one there to the zombies or diseases or in minor skirmishes with the Mallers. The apartment building was never a viable long-term solution. Plus, he taught Pegs to fly and (presumably) gave his life in defense of the Tower. That's a good thing, so he gets a big 'thumbs up' for that.
Still, it's like if an emergency surgeon who had saved hundreds of lives suddenly murdered someone. Would you give the surgeon a pass for the murder? I wouldn't.
He did good things, and he did bad things. They don't cancel out, they're just separate things entirely. That's my take on this whole Kalani thing.
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by mem
I'll grant that while we--as outsiders looking in--may have known that Hannah was going to end up taking a dirt nap, it wouldn't have been possible for Kalani to ascertain that he had lost her for good. Even if the thought had crossed his mind, the thought of getting her back trumps all else. I think it's necessary to take knowledge through stunted omniscience out of the equation and look at it from a far more limited perspective: Dad's. If you do that, it's impossible to think you could simply write her off as dead and not bother following the kidnapper's demands to get her back.Quote:
Originally Posted by shiroidenkou1994
Also, the only person that Kalani technically murdered was Pippin, the guy there to flip the tables on Kalani, sell him out and take over the mission. The rest is collateral damage. That said, I flip your last statement. Would you give a pass to someone who murdered one piece of shit and saved hundreds of lives afterwards?
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Originally Posted by shiroidenkou1994
I'll ask you.. What was Kalani suppose to do ? Write off his daughter when he left her behind in the hands of the Mallers?
In answer to your question, I refer you to my original post: "the better thing to do would've been to tell the Tower (or the first group) about what was going on, and prepare them to fight back." He could have set up the Mallers for an ambush, made them think everyone would be unprepared, and given 'em hell when they arrived. If he wanted Hannah back, that would have been a smarter, more ethical way to achieve that goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by yarri
Mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't save a hundred lives after he killed Pippin. Everyone that was in the Tower and is dead now, he and Bill are 100% responsible for. The ENTIRE situation as it stands goes all the way back to Kalani betraying everyone in the Tower. Saul and Victor wouldn't be seperated, Angel and Burt wouldn't have fallen off the tower via the rope, and Fort Irwin would be an upcoming trip rather than a possible final destination for everyone on the helo with Pegs. Everything is Kalanis fault, his daughter was dead the second they took her away from him. I understand his desire to get his daughter back, the fact remains that it never would have happened. He betrayed and killed everyone in the Tower because of his extremely foolish and misplaced hope they would uphold their end of the deal. They were a bunch of murderers, thieves, and backstabbers. Only a fool would believe them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
It's amazing how many people say they'd do anything to keep their child alive. This has no relation to Kalani's situation. Anyone with any sense can see that the second that the Mallers took her away, she was already dead. He had absolutely ZERO chance of saving her life, she was as good as dead. That's the simple fact of life in the We're Alive universe. No matter who he betrayed, who he killed, or what he did she was already dead.
Double post.
You're completely wrong to say the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Redemption is redemption. Again--and this is important so please pay attention--the only reason you believe that anyone with any sense could see that Hannah was dead the moment she was taken (which has not been confirmed, so you could be very wrong) is because you are privy to knowledge that Kalani was not. If you fail to recognize that your arguments will be based on nothing more than your personal feelings toward the characters and not at all based on divorced, logical examination of the facts in the manner that they are being presented--not to us--to the characters within the confines of the singular perspective of each character in the moment. Simply saying that it is true does not make it so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
Change the word fool to father.. Only a father would believe them. Can you sit there and tell us that if she were your flesh and blood you would have walked away from her? Cause you knew she was in the hands of thieves and murders? She wasn't worth your time to do anything you could to save her?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
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Originally Posted by Osiris
Osiris is 100% right in this situation.
Could you please use a legible color for your drivel? It's extremely hard to read what you write. "Divorced, logical examination of the facts" are exactly what I'm going off of. The Mallers (before he knew that's what the other group referred to them as) basically kidnapped him, his daughter and Pippin. They wouldn't release him or his daughter unless he spied on the Tower inhabitants. It's that simple. Anyone with any sense would know that getting roped in with the group that were the Mallers was a losing battle. They kidnapped/kept his daughter against both of their wishes and in exchange for his daughters safety they wanted him to basically infiltrate and effectively destroy the group at the tower with CJ. They told him to go gather information, and when they got overrun they pretty much left him to die. "Better start runnin'" is what Scratch told him. To them, he wasn't worth the trouble of saving since their building was effectively ruined and everyone was at the very high possibility of being killed by the zombies and the guy with the tats. He pleaded with them to tell him how his daughter was when he contacted them from the second Tower. No answer. Yes, the concepts are mutually exclusive. He at no time was looking out for anyone but himself, and foolishly, his daughter. Nothing up to that point gave him any logical indication that his work would result in the release of his daughter, they had already left him to die at the first tower he was in. They used the possibility of getting his daughter back to further manipulate him and the Mallers never told her of her condition or location. Do I believe she was dead before that girl got shot at the golf course? No. I believe that was her at the golf course. What I meant was that she was effectively dead as soon as they were separated. He already knew they were seriously dangerous people as soon as they got back to their strip mall. He had already seen how they treated other people. Only an idiot would think they were any different and that they would uphold their end of the deal. As revealed in his journal they continued to keep him in the dark about his daughter. She was effectively dead by then, not literally. The Mallers gave him ZERO indication that she was alive and that she would be released, and even sent Pippin in to check on him and the situation at the Tower. That's why he murdered Pippin to cover his tracks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
They have nothing to lose by keeping or not keeping her around, Kalani had everything to lose by not doing what they said. Without any evidence she was safe, without any logical reason to believe she would be, he insulted, betrayed and undermined their efforts to escape the wrath of the Mallers and caused the deaths and destruction of the Tower. The Mallers simply attacked them because Pegs shot Latch in self defense. He enabled and encouraged their deaths. It's as simple as that. Those are the facts. I'm tired of your "superior" act and condescending tone. NOTHING the Mallers did gave any indication that they would uphold their end of the deal and they didn't. Anyone that has any sense knows that, in that situation or not. I knew the second it was revealed in his journal that they kept her in exchange for his spying, she was as good as dead. Only a hopeful fool would have believed otherwise. As someone else said, he would have had a better and more reasonable chance had he teamed up with the Tower residents and gone after them to try and save her. He said as much when he talked about getting the helos up and running, he wanted to try and use them to possibly save her. Too little, too late. The Tower residents were willing to attack the Mallers to get back Lizzy, maybe they would have for his daughter as well. Kill two birds with one stone. I know that's nothing more than supposition, but they had demonstrated that they were willing to attack them to get someone back. Kalani is responsible for every death in the Tower since he got there, his own journal tells the story of his betrayal. Those are the facts, not my wishful thinking or my opinion of the man as the character Kalani. Trying to protect his kid was completely stupid and irrational. They were never going to let her go and anyone with any sense knows that. Whether you choose to accept reality or dismiss it like he did doesn't matter, she was never going to make it out of their control alive, especially while he's off running around doing their dirty work and had no way to confirm that she was still alive.
Yes, that question you posed versus what this situation is are mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't kill one dirtbag and then save hundreds. He killed about 25 people to save someone that was effectively dead given who she was captured by and he died in the process without getting anything set right. Your hypothetical situation and this one are absolutely opposite one another. Kalani wasn't in it to save hundreds, he was in it to save one in a situation where she was never going to be saved. If I were him, I'd have recruited everyone I know to go after them and kill as many as possible trying to save her. No one in the Tower was standing in his way and had he tried, they most likely would have stood with him. Instead he chose to betray them and got what he deserved. He cannot be forgiven for doing something so evil. He only stopped the tanker in the end out of guilt, not because he cared for anyone in the Tower. He knew his efforts were for nothing and had no reason to live. Hell, Angel saved his life at least twice and he still talked bad about him.
Emotional outbursts will get you nowhere in this with me, "think of the children" is the battle cry of the ignorant and emotionally unstable. I've NEVER said I would leave her to die (you and others have put these words in my mouth, please kindly stop that), I said that Kalani should have known that she was effectively dead as soon as he agreed to spy for them. They never let him talk to her, they never confirmed she was okay, and they were a group of ruthless murderers. What I would have done is gotten the Tower residents to help me attack and kill the Mallers and attempt to get her back. Via a trap, an ambush, whatever. But stupidly running around stabbing people in the back and pleading like a child over the radio got him what? Nothing. His daughter is dead, he is dead and so are the vast majority of the Tower residents. Had he at least tried to get her back, especially since he knew the Tower guys had grenades, claymores, a .50 cal machine gun, and trained Army infantry in his group, they would have had a very good chance of taking them over. Sitting around crying about it and wishing evil people would do the right thing is as stupid as it is deadly. I don't fault him for wanting to get his kid back, I fault him for stupidly going about it the way he did, not realizing the facts about his situation and doing effectively exactly the wrong things to get her back. He did nothing to get her back. Literally. He played along with the game a vicious group of murderers wanted him to and he got what was always coming to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by yarri
No he is not. Everything I've argued with was what the situation was as Kalani saw it. He was with a group of criminals. They were murderers, they kidnapped his daughter and never let him talk to her or confirm that she was even alive the entire time he was off running around. They left him to die at least once. The people that saved him at the risk of their own lives, he viciously and without remorse betrayed and insulted them multiple times. He commented on how they didn't have their shit together like the last place he had been. (The same place that was attacked by Ink and everyone save four were killed. At the Tower? One. Less fortified, less security in place and they came out smelling like a rose.) Asshole. There is no other word for him. Despite them saving his life, he had nothing but bad things to say about them, which he wrote down and made sure they knew about. He KNEW he was wrong, he KNEW he had done the wrong things, he made damn sure they couldn't defend themselves from the same people threatening to kill his daughter and tried to repent for them in the end by revealing what he'd done. He had seen what the Mallers were capable of from the very second he met them. He knew damn well these people were psychotic and dangerous. He did literally nothing to save his daughter other than believe the people that kidnapped her, murdered other people and left him to die at least once were going to uphold their promise. Only an idiot would believe that was even remotely sane and he got a lot of people killed because of it. Father or no father, daughter or no daughter he was a moron and got what was coming to him. It's a shame that he got a lot of good people killed along the way. Desire to save your children isn't an excuse to commit evil and hateful acts, especially when the situation is already fucked up from the start. There was absolutely no way the Mallers were ever going to keep her safe, if he didn't realize that then he's an idiot and so would anyone else be with that mentality (in the We're Alive universe, not here. I realize emotions make people do crazy things but it's no excuse in this case). I respect him for wanting his daughter safe, but the way he went about it doesn't relieve him of his sins. He can never be forgiven for what he did and neither should anyone else that did what he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by yarri
Don't read emotion into textual posts. I asked you this question before apparently you missed it. In this situation Kalani didn't know these "tower" folks. Didn't know what they were able to do, or would do for someone like him. They were ill organized stealing from each other and lying to each other. To his eyes they were ineffective and doomed to failure and where did he know they had claymores, grenades and a .50 cal machine gun? Was that before or after the attack on the tower? Michael, Saul and Angel (three "trained" military infantry vs oh what 100 armed murders and thieves.. Now doesn't that sound like a sound and rational battle plan. 3 vs 100 I would say that would be a tad over whelming odds I think they call that in Vegas a suckers bet)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
Kalani wasn't a super hero. He was a fat old Hawaiian guy that wanted nothing more then to have the one person he loved his daughter safe. You're assuming he had some prior knowledge or ability to reason out that his daughter was dead. He acted as a human being would.. flawed and with emotion. Like any other parent would faced with this situation.
Wow, I didn't realize a snide remark about killing off an annoying character could lead to such long discussion. I'm just impressed.
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Originally Posted by sailorangel59
:D its a good thread!
I'm wrong? I seem to remember that Kalani kept Bill stealing all the ammo a secret, went along with the party idea, started the whole fight by following Scratch's orders to shoot at the ground thereby having the events start that lead to all the water in the tower being used to extinguish the fire that almost engulfed the whole tower. Yes, he did give them the ability to fly, but he also made it necessary for them to need that ability. How you can't connect the facts with the beginning of his appearance with what the end results are is frankly amazing. Could it have played out differently without Kalani there? Could they have needed to leave the tower in search of supplies later on? Of course. It is known fact that the situation with having to fly somewhere to get supplies that they needed was all because of his betrayal. It's literally spelled out in the plot up to this point. They needed water because he directly caused them to not be able to defend themselves from the Maller attack. How can you not see this? Are you choosing to ignore it? Are you trying to be philosophical about Kalani? The situation may have played out differently, yes. That is true. The way it is now goes straight back to Kalani's actions. All of it. They were weakened severely from the attack that Kalani orchestrated behind the scenes and it was necessary for them to fly out. Even as he was teaching Pegs to fly, he was still plotting against and insulting the Tower residents. Having a sudden change of heart right at the end doesn't relieve him of the fact that his actions lead to the deaths of everyone in the Tower and it's complete destruction. Would you forgive this man if he had killed the majority of the people you had known? Would you forgive him for destroying the one safe place you had literally bled to make? I couldn't, because everything I had would stand a very good chance of being just fine if he had never come around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
Knowing Bill took the ammo does not equal knowing the contents of the armory.The tower was going to fall that was the 2nd attack they had had.. They had crap for defenses they were living on borrowed time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
You asked me twice, and then inserted words into my mouth the second time. He saw them as disorganized and ineffective at first, when they proved their effectiveness later, he still plotted against them. He never once said anything about being grateful they didn't leave his fat ass to die at the arena, and even after Angel saved his life everyone "became somewhat tolerable" according to him. Save his life, he doesn't like the way you conduct operations even while on his own stupid plan and they're barely tolerable to him? Worthless. Completely worthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by yarri
I would take two of my Marines against untrained prisoners any day of the week. The Tower guys were better armed and better trained. Sheer numbers are one way to assure you never succeed. Hell, they only succeeded attacking them the first time because of Kalani making sure they had no ammo. The Mallers had nothing more than pistols and ladders when they attacked so they were no better armed than the Tower guys anyway. I'll forgive you for thinking that 3 vs 100 is a stupid plan, you've obviously never been exposed to the military or military tactics. Even 3 Army infantry would be a match directing 25 other people, and don't forget that they had given proper training to alot of the other people in the Tower as well.
No Kalani wasn't a super hero. I'm not assuming anything about him being able to reason that his daughter was dead, I'm saying that he was a complete moron for even trying to work with the Mallers in their agreement to keep his daughter alive. He was as dangerous as he was stupid. It's a shame he got so many other people killed on his foolish quest to get his daughter back by doing exactly the wrong things. He acted as a stupid human would, not everyone would choose such an idiotic way to save someone. You're assuming that any other parent would betray everyone around them to save murderous criminals from saving your kid when you have superior firepower, superior mobility, super training and loyal people to your cause. He had everything at his disposal to make an attack with an extremely high chance of success and instead trusted murderers to not kill his daughter. They gave him at least 10 reasons and demonstrations of their apathy towards even his safety to show that they would honor the deal. Like I said, had he not been a moron he would have known that murderers don't typically uphold their word and he had literally 30 people that could have helped with a very very good chance of getting her back. Instead he chose the path that got himself, his daughter, and many others killed.
You've said friends after family and you'd do anything or kill anyone to keep your kid safe right? Family above all else? Did it ever occur to you that those around you just might be willing to help you get them back? Did it ever occur to you that one against many (as you pointed out above) can and usually is a foolish endeavor? I figured that most people were smart enough to realize that you've got more guns, better people, better training and more mobility is better than trying to negotiate with a murderer. Instead of being all emotional and heroic, maybe he should have asked for help and so should you or anyone else that thinks his actions were the right ones or justified.
What difference does it make what ammo he knows he has taken away from them when he knows he has it all? He even confirms it multiple times (to Scratch over the radio while on duty) and tells them what weapons that they do have ammo for, although no a lot thanks to him. That's a completely moot point. The crap defenses was specifically because of what Kalani and Bill had done to the tower residents the first time the Mallers attacked. They expended ammo they shouldn't have needed to, had they not been betrayed by Bill and Kalani, and lost their entire water supply to extinguishing the fire. They had to stretch themselves really thin to make up for all those wasted supplies and ammo from the first fight. Everything in your comment can be logically traced back to what Kalani did. Do you understand the meaning of cause and effect?Quote:
Originally Posted by yarri
Can no one in this thread see past the end of their nose? The whole point of any story is to set up events and then continue to story based on what's happened and continues to happen! All present events can be traced all the way back, factually and logically, to when Kalani showed up. His journal spells out everything he did for FSM sake. It's right there in the story!
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Originally Posted by Ray
I would take two of my Marines against untrained prisoners any day of the week. The Tower guys were better armed and better trained. Sheer numbers are one way to assure you never succeed. Hell, they only succeeded attacking them the first time because of Kalani making sure they had no ammo. The Mallers had nothing more than pistols and ladders when they attacked so they were no better armed than the Tower guys anyway. I'll forgive you for thinking that 3 vs 100 is a stupid plan, you've obviously never been exposed to the military or military tactics. Even 3 Army infantry would be a match directing 25 other people, and don't forget that they had given proper training to alot of the other people in the Tower as well.
It wasn't Kalani insuring they had no ammo that was Bill. murderers to not kill his daughter. They gave him at least 10 reasons and demonstrations of their apathy towards even his safety to show that they would honor the deal. Like I said, had he not been a moron he would have known that murderers don't typically uphold their word and he had literally 30 people that could have helped with a very very good chance of getting her back. Instead he chose the path that got himself, his daughter, and many others killed.
You've said friends after family and you'd do anything or kill anyone to keep your kid safe right? Family above all else? Did it ever occur to you that those around you just might be willing to help you get them back? Did it ever occur to you that one against many (as you pointed out above) can and usually is a foolish endeavor? I figured that most people were smart enough to realize that you've got more guns, better people, better training and more mobility is better than trying to negotiate with a murderer. Instead of being all emotional and heroic, maybe he should have asked for help and so should you or anyone else that thinks his actions were the right ones or justified.[/QUOTE]
1. I never inserted words in your mouth
2. I'm military so your forgiveness isn't required.
3. 100 to 3 odds is still a suckers bet no matter how well you are armed unless your Batman. :D Are you Batman? The majority of that tower were direct-able but poorly trained.
I'll answer the rest of this in the am I have to go to work Have a good night
4. To assume that the convicts of Eastern Bay were "untrained" is pure arrogance.
Eastern bay prison houses hardened criminals not white collar guys that cheated on their taxes to quote Burt (lady and the tink part 2 about the 3:02mark) I'm confident that the convicts at Eastern Bay know how to use a gun, wield a knife and practice the fine art of beating someone to death with any random object that comes to hand.
5. My MOS I was Logistics I've ordered, inventoried and maintained everything from ammo to F18 wings and everything in between. The fact that the armory wasn't checked on a daily basis and every bullet eye balled to see if the shine was still glowing bright smacks of a serious break in the chain of command. The fact that guys like you had bullets to fire in what ever military engagement you were in was because of folks like me doing my job. Someone in that tower wasn't doing their job. It would have taken time to move an armory of that size by one person. That means whom ever was maintaining that Armory aka BURT and who ever was on watch aka EVERYONE else fell asleep at the wheel.
(:D now that last part could be termed an emotional outburst.. maybe. nah.. not really. I'm tired I get a little freaky when I'm this tired )
You lose all credibility right then and there. Congrats, you've joined the ranks of amateur trolls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
Were that true, you would be acknowledging the simple fact that you are seeing a representation of the Mallers after the fact. To put it very simple, this is a re-telling of events. Everything we've learned about the Mallers have coloured them in a negative light. The simple fact that the episode in which we learn of Kalani's subterfuge comes in the third season colours your own judgment of his situation. #FACTQuote:
It's extremely hard to read what you write. "Divorced, logical examination of the facts" are exactly what I'm going off of.
Remember these are your words. I'll explain how you've contradicted yourself in a little while.Quote:
We've already determined that your point of view is not divorced from the facts as they were presented to the characters in the story, and to us. Again, the only reason Kalani followed orders was to save his daughter from a group of people desperate to survive. You cannot inject knowledge of intent of specific groups or characters, or omniscience and clairvoyance into a character simply because you--as a listener--are aware of events that have taken place. That means all of the events that happened involving Scratch, Durai or anyone else, prior to Kalani's arrival and subsequent involvement are meaningless. You may have 'known' that Hannah was doomed from the start, but the simple fact is Kalani didn't. Anyone with any sense at all would do anything they could to get their child back safely. Strangers be damned. We've covered this, pay attention next time.Quote:
It's that simple. Anyone with any sense would know that getting roped in with the group that were the Mallers was a losing battle. They kidnapped/kept his daughter against both of their wishes and in exchange for his daughters safety they wanted him to basically infiltrate and effectively destroy the group at the tower with CJ. They told him to go gather information, and when they got overrun they pretty much left him to die. "Better start runnin'" is what Scratch told him. To them, he wasn't worth the trouble of saving since their building was effectively ruined and everyone was at the very high possibility of being killed by the zombies and the guy with the tats. He pleaded with them to tell him how his daughter was when he contacted them from the second Tower. No answer. Yes, the concepts are mutually exclusive.
Again, you're injecting information and foresight into a character who has none of the knowledge that you've gained while listening to events that precede his arrival. Pay. Attention. You are also injecting motivation into a character when no motivation was given. How would Kalani (who should be so suspicious of everyone he meets, by your reasoning) not believe that Pippin was in league with the Mallers and sent to replace him, since he was unable to produce on the plan that he was charged with setting in motion? Answer? It doesn't fit your 'logic' and as such, is tossed aside and disregarded, thought your own logic dictates otherwise.Quote:
He at no time was looking out for anyone but himself, and foolishly, his daughter. Nothing up to that point gave him any logical indication that his work would result in the release of his daughter, they had already left him to die at the first tower he was in. They used the possibility of getting his daughter back to further manipulate him and the Mallers never told her of her condition or location. Do I believe she was dead before that girl got shot at the golf course? No. I believe that was her at the golf course. What I meant was that she was effectively dead as soon as they were separated. He already knew they were seriously dangerous people as soon as they got back to their strip mall. He had already seen how they treated other people. Only an idiot would think they were any different and that they would uphold their end of the deal. As revealed in his journal they continued to keep him in the dark about his daughter. She was effectively dead by then, not literally. The Mallers gave him ZERO indication that she was alive and that she would be released, and even sent Pippin in to check on him and the situation at the Tower. That's why he murdered Pippin to cover his tracks.
None of those are facts. Those are speculations and falsehoods. The Maller's didn't attack because Pegs shot Latch 'in self-defence', if you had paid attention to the episode you would know the War was going on long before Latch tried to enter the building. Inconsistencies like this will be your downfall in this argument. As to Kalani's 'lack of logical reasoning' I say this: Have a child. Have that child kidnapped. Watch logic vanish--not that I expect you've entertained having it around, based on this wall of text you've provided that runs in circles and contradicts itself. Kalani acted on the hope that his daughter would be returned to him; hope for the only thing he has left in the world.Quote:
They have nothing to lose by keeping or not keeping her around, Kalani had everything to lose by not doing what they said. Without any evidence she was safe, without any logical reason to believe she would be, he insulted, betrayed and undermined their efforts to escape the wrath of the Mallers and caused the deaths and destruction of the Tower. The Mallers simply attacked them because Pegs shot Latch in self defense. He enabled and encouraged their deaths. It's as simple as that. Those are the facts.
You've yet to be introduced to my condescending tone. As for my superiority, well... I cite this post as proof, though I hardly think that your words are helping you to prove your point. Which still seems to be that all characters in the story have the same emotional state and bias that you do. This sort of thinking is false and holds absolutely no logic at all.Quote:
I'm tired of your "superior" act and condescending tone.
The reason you 'knew' this is because you have knowledge of prior events. Again, this is information Kalani had no access to. If you're not going to provide an argument that doesn't move beyond 'I knew it so anyone with a brain should have' then you're going to continue to lose.Quote:
NOTHING the Mallers did gave any indication that they would uphold their end of the deal and they didn't. Anyone that has any sense knows that, in that situation or not. I knew the second it was revealed in his journal that they kept her in exchange for his spying, she was as good as dead. Only a hopeful fool would have believed otherwise.
Hey, let's jump in the Way-Back Machine and use your own logic to solve this puzzle you've created for yourself. Kalani lands in L.A. in the middle of the night, essentially on his own, save Hannah. The first people he meets kidnap him and his daughter, holding her hostage to do his bidding.Quote:
As someone else said, he would have had a better and more reasonable chance had he teamed up with the Tower residents and gone after them to try and save her. He said as much when he talked about getting the helos up and running, he wanted to try and use them to possibly save her. Too little, too late.
You still with me? I'll go slow so you don't miss this part.
Kalani is then sent to spy on CJ's tower. A group of un-trusting, paranoid people who have each other under camera. A short time passes, that tower is overrun and Kalani is? Taken and thrown into a holding area inside of the Arena, where he spends the time contemplating his life. He resigned himself to his fate and tried to kill himself. Now, another group shows up. Chaos, confusion, danger are all present as they try to escape. Yadda, yadda, yadda. He ends up in yet another tower, with a hostile commander--and if you go back and listen you'll see that Michael is in fact quite hostile and dismissive toward Kalani--nobody trusts him and nobody seems willing to let him leave. You'll recall that he did ask for a gun and some ammo to leave. Hmmm... I don't know about you, but if the first group that I met when I landed, kidnapped me and was holding my daughter hostage, the second group that I found myself with was incredibly paranoid and mistrusting and finally the third bunch showed me similar traits, I would logically assume everyone here is roughly the same. Your own logic tells me I should be wary to the point of a fault of any person that crosses my path. Care to rethink that?
No, no, no. Lizzy is already dead. We know this because anyone with any sense would know that Scratch and Co. would kill her no matter what. Trying to rescue her would be completely stupid and irrational, totally illogical and senseless! This is your logic here, not mine.Quote:
The Tower residents were willing to attack the Mallers to get back Lizzy, maybe they would have for his daughter as well.
I know. Saul and Victor are completely wasting their time. It's unbelievable how Michael let them endanger their lives at the golf course when we already knew she was dead. That's some hard as fuck factual logic there, ain't it?Quote:
Kill two birds with one stone. I know that's nothing more than supposition, but they had demonstrated that they were willing to attack them to get someone back. Kalani is responsible for every death in the Tower since he got there, his own journal tells the story of his betrayal. Those are the facts, not my wishful thinking or my opinion of the man as the character Kalani. Trying to protect his kid was completely stupid and irrational.
See above.Quote:
They were never going to let her go and anyone with any sense knows that. Whether you choose to accept reality or dismiss it like he did doesn't matter, she was never going to make it out of their control alive, especially while he's off running around doing their dirty work and had no way to confirm that she was still alive.
Since you've already proved, beyond any doubt at all, that you have a blurry recollection of the events of the series, I'm going to leave you with this:Quote:
Yes, that question you posed versus what this situation is are mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't kill one dirtbag and then save hundreds. He killed about 25 people to save someone that was effectively dead given who she was captured by and he died in the process without getting anything set right. Your hypothetical situation and this one are absolutely opposite one another. Kalani wasn't in it to save hundreds, he was in it to save one in a situation where she was never going to be saved. If I were him, I'd have recruited everyone I know to go after them and kill as many as possible trying to save her. No one in the Tower was standing in his way and had he tried, they most likely would have stood with him. Instead he chose to betray them and got what he deserved. He cannot be forgiven for doing something so evil. He only stopped the tanker in the end out of guilt, not because he cared for anyone in the Tower. He knew his efforts were for nothing and had no reason to live. Hell, Angel saved his life at least twice and he still talked bad about him.
In response to the question that I posed versus the topic at hand being mutually exclusive, I find that your reasoning to be contradictory.
You've made this comparison of your own volition. My response poses a diametrically opposed viewpoint and suddenly the two are mutually exclusive? Your lack of ability to argue a point is beyond amazing. I've explained the this adequately, considering your 'argument' is based entirely on one point: omniscience. It is, therefore invalid.Quote:
Still, it's like if an emergency surgeon who had saved hundreds of lives suddenly murdered someone. Would you give the surgeon a pass for the murder?
*Drops the mic. Walks away*
The fans have passion.Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorangel59
I love this guy. It's like he's known the entire plot of the story since the first episode. Obvious troll is obvious. Still entertaining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
