Chain of Command- Fort Irwin, Ch. 26.1 and further

Okay this may sound like a crackpot theory but now it's stuck in my head.

Who is in charge at Fort Irwin?

My first thought was I have no idea. But then I got a crazy idea in my head. What if the head is Durai? I know totally crazy but it's stuck in my head. Remeber that Scratch spoke military language, if anyone could con the military @ Fort Irwin it would be Durai. Maybe he has some prior service or knew someone (I think it's safe to say that Scratch and Angel have some past).

I know nutty but is anything in this series easy or predictable?

They've said Durai is down south and Ft Irwin is north east from the tower. So it's not likely. Now, does that mean Durai wasn't stationed there at some point? Nope! Not at all!

You know, it would have been useful to have had Angel with them. His 2nd Lt rank would have come in handy. If a full on military chain of command was in place and still functioning at Irwin, then, his rank would carry more weight than Michael's. And he's not as inexperienced as when he started out. He's seen more apocalyptic combat than almost anyone. Too bad he's MIA and probably on route to the Colony.

Oh thank god....things are about to return to normal around here.....

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

You know, it would have been useful to have had Angel with them. His 2nd Lt rank would have come in handy. If a full on military chain of command was in place and still functioning at Irwin, then, his rank would carry more weight than Michael's. And he's not as inexperienced as when he started out. He's seen more apocalyptic combat than almost anyone. Too bad he's MIA and probably on route to the Colony.

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The only thing Angel would do is cry he's not being considered for command and chase after Riley's pants.

*lights a smoke*

Man that felt good.....it's been so long!! :p

But honestly, I don't think Angel would be able to pull anymore weight than Michael did in this episode. Maybe later, sure. But against an "automaton" MP simply following orders, I don't think Angel outranking Michael would make a difference. The Secretary of Defense could have been on the chopper, and he would have been told to shut up too.

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Originally Posted by awkwardalex

My first thought was I have no idea. But then I got a crazy idea in my head. What if the head is Durai? I know totally crazy but it's stuck in my head. Remeber that Scratch spoke military language, if anyone could con the military @ Fort Irwin it would be Durai. Maybe he has some prior service or knew someone (I think it's safe to say that Scratch and Angel have some past).

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Don't forget about Michael's observation from the chopper in 25.1 that the highway was clogged with an "ocean of cars", 12 vehicles thick both ways, flowing out on the embankments, a "mass grave site of steel, preventing people from escaping the city. Without our helicopter, there is no way anyone could have made it this far."

Durai and the gang only had cars and trucks, which seems to rule out any quick stops over to Irwin via the highways...

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Oh thank god....things are about to return to normal around here.....



The only thing Angel would do is cry he's not being considered for command and chase after Riley's pants.

*lights a smoke*

Man that felt good.....it's been so long!! :p

But honestly, I don't think Angel would be able to pull anymore weight than Michael did in this episode. Maybe later, sure. But against an "automaton" MP simply following orders, I don't think Angel outranking Michael would make a difference. The Secretary of Defense could have been on the chopper, and he would have been told to shut up too.

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Not so much in this episode but in the one's to come. From the sounds of it, the man in command seems to be an officer, and he's probably a damn good one, probably a colonel or a major. If the military chain of command is still in place, then Michael will have to work much harder to show and establish his leadership skill. In the short run, Angel's rank would have been far more useful. Especially considering that Michael no longer responds well to taking orders. Maybe it'll be different now that it's a military chain of command, but we know for a fact that Angel is particularly good at completing missions and has a good deal of zombie exp. Those two things make him a very good officer.

I'm just guessing at this point, but Michael is someone who has to lead. At some point soon, he's going to have to prove his leadership and get into a very high position of leadership just for story's sake. No one would let a newcomer into their leadership, unless they were desperate for leaders. Michael is going to have to prove himself worthy of that position. Since they're probably going to be assimilating into the chain of command, Angel would fall into a Lt position, so he'd have immediate leadership.

I'm excited to see some kind of Gen Hammond, Col. O'neil SG-1 relationship develop between Michael and said base commander

FINGERS CROSSED

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Not so much in this episode but in the one's to come. From the sounds of it, the man in command seems to be an officer, and he's probably a damn good one, probably a colonel or a major. If the military chain of command is still in place, then Michael will have to work much harder to show and establish his leadership skill. In the short run, Angel's rank would have been far more useful. Especially considering that Michael no longer responds well to taking orders. Maybe it'll be different now that it's a military chain of command, but we know for a fact that Angel is particularly good at completing missions and has a good deal of zombie exp. Those two things make him a very good officer.

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I totally disagree. Much in the same way everyone in the Tower looked to Michael and not Angel, despite Military structure and rankings, Michael is head and shoulders above Angel and it doesn't take much for people to realize it. All they'd have to do is line the two of them up and see how much better Michael is at just about everything and he'd get an immediate field promotion. And you saying Angel is a better do-er and mission helper makes him (in action) a subordinate to Michael...the planner. So I'd say you just shot your own argument in the foot.

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I'm just guessing at this point, but Michael is someone who has to lead. At some point soon, he's going to have to prove his leadership and get into a very high position of leadership just for story's sake. No one would let a newcomer into their leadership, unless they were desperate for leaders. Michael is going to have to prove himself worthy of that position. Since they're probably going to be assimilating into the chain of command, Angel would fall into a Lt position, so he'd have immediate leadership.

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Yes and no. Michael doesn't need to take full command. If he feels like whomever is in charge has the best interests of his people in mind (and actually follows through on it) I don't feel like he NEEDS to lead. If he trusts the person in charge at Irwin, and he's given command of a little squad of troops, that could be enough. The issue Michael has had with people over him in the story has been they don't listen to his ideas. If someone is willing to listen, and consider his opinion and his "family" is safe....he's more likely to fall in line in my opinion.

And I sincerely doubt that Angel would be given command right away either. If they are surviving just like everyone else...trust is at a premium.
BTW: I missed this oh so much!

NCOs are the backbone of the military. there's an old joke that goes: you're a fresh LT, and you are given a flag and five feet of rope to hoist it up a ten feet of flag pole. how do you do it? give it to your first sergeant, come back in ten minutes, and don't ask queestions. officers call the shots, but NCOs make it happen, on all levels. as such, michael steps forward to make mission happen, but his natural role is to follow orders, that's what he's been trained to do. squad leaders (which as a sergeant he would be eligible for that role) take command of a team and accomplish an objective. michaels objective has been clear, keeping people alive, so that is what he's been doing.

For all of the non-military folks on here, I'll let you know how a new 2LT (or butterbar as we call them) is treated when he shows up to an Infantry unit. First, we check his left shoulder. No ranger tab? That means he's weak since most of his class of officers will have their tab. Second, we introduce ourselves (As a platoon sergeant, I introduce myself, then my squad leaders). Usually a good LT will say something like "I can't wait to learn from you guys". If he says he's got some great ideas, you're in trouble. The platoon leader has to learn from their NCOs to be successful. Lastly, you get the platoon in a formation and let him introduce himself. If he starts telling you all the deficiencies he finds on the soldiers or acts like he's an NCO himself, you have to stop that shit immediately. I've had the best PLs and the worst PLs you could imagine.

With all of that being said, if Angel had been with them he would have been treated the same way until he showed that he knew his shit. It wouldn't have taken long, but he still wouldn't have impressed anyone with his rank. Michael's rank has a lot more pull with soldiers and officers than 2LT.

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Originally Posted by looney

For all of the non-military folks on here, I'll let you know how a new 2LT (or butterbar as we call them) is treated when he shows up to an Infantry unit. First, we check his left shoulder. No ranger tab? That means he's weak since most of his class of officers will have their tab. Second, we introduce ourselves (As a platoon sergeant, I introduce myself, then my squad leaders). Usually a good LT will say something like "I can't wait to learn from you guys". If he says he's got some great ideas, you're in trouble. The platoon leader has to learn from their NCOs to be successful. Lastly, you get the platoon in a formation and let him introduce himself. If he starts telling you all the deficiencies he finds on the soldiers or acts like he's an NCO himself, you have to stop that shit immediately. I've had the best PLs and the worst PLs you could imagine.

With all of that being said, if Angel had been with them he would have been treated the same way until he showed that he knew his shit. It wouldn't have taken long, but he still wouldn't have impressed anyone with his rank. Michael's rank has a lot more pull with soldiers and officers than 2LT.

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Ok, that's understandable, but if they were to re integrate with the unit at fort irwin, Angel would be in a higher position of command than Michael right?

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I totally disagree. Much in the same way everyone in the Tower looked to Michael and not Angel, despite Military structure and rankings, Michael is head and shoulders above Angel and it doesn't take much for people to realize it. All they'd have to do is line the two of them up and see how much better Michael is at just about everything and he'd get an immediate field promotion. And you saying Angel is a better do-er and mission helper makes him (in action) a subordinate to Michael...the planner. So I'd say you just shot your own argument in the foot.

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What I mean is, when the tower was intact. Michael was supreme ruler and commander. He took orders from no one. His role was more of a general, and a president to the people of the tower. Angel's role on the other hand was exactly one of an officer. He took orders handed down from the guy in charge, and he got things done.

The other thing is, if the military is still following protocol, i feel that they wouldn't line them up and see who's better, they would say hey, you're a 2nd lt, you do this job. Hey you're a sgt, you do this job. (Unless I'm wrong?-looney? -Crowbar?)

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Yes and no. Michael doesn't need to take full command. If he feels like whomever is in charge has the best interests of his people in mind (and actually follows through on it) I don't feel like he NEEDS to lead. If he trusts the person in charge at Irwin, and he's given command of a little squad of troops, that could be enough. The issue Michael has had with people over him in the story has been they don't listen to his ideas. If someone is willing to listen, and consider his opinion and his "family" is safe....he's more likely to fall in line in my opinion.

And I sincerely doubt that Angel would be given command right away either. If they are surviving just like everyone else...trust is at a premium.
BTW: I missed this oh so much!

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Here's the thing, for the story to progress, someone from the tower, NEEDS to be in a leadership role at irwin. He doesn't need full command but he's the type who would never be satisfied with his group not having representation. The other thing is, there was a line from an older episode where he said he just didn't like taking orders from anyone anymore.

As for angel being command right away, probably not, but that's most likely all a part of the re integration process. See if they're trustworthy, and if they prove themselves, give them positions at the base. afterwards, i'm under the impression that if they're following protocol they'd put the 2nd lt into a 2nd lt's role, (as unrespected as he might be) and they'd put a sgt, into a sgt's position. (once again -looney, crowbar?)

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Ok, that's understandable, but if they were to re integrate with the unit at fort irwin, Angel would be in a higher position of command than Michael right?

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Technically, if Angel and Michael were to work together in a regular unit, with a standard command structure, Angel outranks Michael. Angel could issue orders to Michael and Michael would be expected to execute with no question. The thing is, Michael and all of the NCOs in that unit would have years of real experience that Angel didn't and would have the backing of the commander and the first sergeant if Michael told him that his idea was stupid. You always have to have tact in the military, that's what keeps you out of trouble. And by experience, I don't necessarily mean combat. NCOs know who to go to in order to get things done. New LTs never know the better way to get stuff done in a hurry. They always feel the need to go by the book and take forever. That's why LTs are always at work until like 1900 when their NCOs are trying to leave at 1500. I'll have to relisten to it, but I'm pretty sure Michael and Saul treated Angel just like a new LT in the first few chapters.

To respond to your second post, normally an E-5 sergeant would fill a team leader role, with 3 or 4 soldiers under him, following a squad leader. A really high speed sergeant can fill a staff sergeant role as a squad leader, with 2 fire teams (this is the Infantry I'm speaking of, but it's a similar structure to most jobs). I could see Michael being placed in more of a platoon sergeant role, giving him charge of 4 squads. He's too good at being in charge to be placed in a remedial role. My biggest fear is that he's Intel, and he'll be placed in a job that is purely intel. Those dudes don't fight at all. They debrief guys like me and compile intel to give the big picture to the commander of troops. The best we can hope for with Angel and Michael being reintegrated into a unit is Michael being PSG and Angel being his PL.

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Originally Posted by looney

For all of the non-military folks on here, I'll let you know how a new 2LT (or butterbar as we call them) is treated when he shows up to an Infantry unit. First, we check his left shoulder. No ranger tab? That means he's weak since most of his class of officers will have their tab. Second, we introduce ourselves (As a platoon sergeant, I introduce myself, then my squad leaders). Usually a good LT will say something like "I can't wait to learn from you guys". If he says he's got some great ideas, you're in trouble. The platoon leader has to learn from their NCOs to be successful. Lastly, you get the platoon in a formation and let him introduce himself. If he starts telling you all the deficiencies he finds on the soldiers or acts like he's an NCO himself, you have to stop that shit immediately. I've had the best PLs and the worst PLs you could imagine.

With all of that being said, if Angel had been with them he would have been treated the same way until he showed that he knew his shit. It wouldn't have taken long, but he still wouldn't have impressed anyone with his rank. Michael's rank has a lot more pull with soldiers and officers than 2LT.

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too true, my father was in for 22 and i remember him coming home and complaining to mom about the latest stupid thing his butthead LT did. he was a platoon SGT too so his job was primarily hand holding the new LTs

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Here's the thing, for the story to progress, someone from the tower, NEEDS to be in a leadership role at irwin. He doesn't need full command but he's the type who would never be satisfied with his group not having representation. The other thing is, there was a line from an older episode where he said he just didn't like taking orders from anyone anymore.

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No they don't. If Michael convinces the Leader at Ft. Irwin they need to go back to LA, and Michael gets put in charge of the mission, gets a crew, and goes. That doesn't require him to be in a leader role beyond what he already does. And according to you that's not leadership per your previous argument.

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The other thing is, if the military is still following protocol, i feel that they wouldn't line them up and see who's better, they would say hey, you're a 2nd lt, you do this job. Hey you're a sgt, you do this job. (Unless I'm wrong?-looney? -Crowbar?)

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As for angel being command right away, probably not, but that's most likely all a part of the re integration process. See if they're trustworthy, and if they prove themselves, give them positions at the base. afterwards, i'm under the impression that if they're following protocol they'd put the 2nd lt into a 2nd lt's role, (as unrespected as he might be) and they'd put a sgt, into a sgt's position. (once again -looney, crowbar?)

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See....you're not seeing the forest through the trees in my opinion. Sure. Stick Angel in as Lt. And again, I say that Michael is more qualified than Angel and would outrank him immediately following the "trustworthy proving" grounds. If the military structure still stands, there's going to be a distinct lack in leadership by its nature simply because there are less leaders.

The reality is that Michael is a more worthy Lt. Angel is a more worthy Sgt.

If they test them to see if they're trust worthy. who's to say Michael (who has proven himself far more capable than Angel in just about every aspect of well.....everything) wouldn't outrank him by the time they're done? Just because Angel starts ahead doesn't mean he ends up ahead.

negative, sergeants are your backbone. a 2LT is supposed to be in a learning mode, as such he should be learning what it is to be a leader of men from his NCO. if he isn't than he is failing in his capacity as a 2LT. angel has certain training that michael doesn't have, and that training will be useful if he ever comes into his own, but right now he has neither the experience to be an effective leader nor it seems the inclination to learn to be an effective leader. in a leadership role, experience counts for a lot, but having the kind of knowledge imbued at OCS and/or west point is a great asset as well. if he learned from michael, or any of the NCOs at the base, how to be an authority figure, along with the experience he has gained in the shit, and gaining time actually leading a platoon at the base, he would be a fantastic leader.

I'm retracting my ten foot pole from this discussion and going to fly the Swiss flag on this one.

KC showed us the tension between ranks in the 1st couple of chapters. Just listen to Michael as Angel is introduced. Something like

The spoiled rich kid... (just out of OCS?) ... but I had more command experience in (the tip of ) my little finger.

One of the main themes beof the story is the shift of Michael from the angry older brother with a huge father and control issues to calm provider / protector husband. My guess is he does not rise to clan-leader, but he learns how to accept orders and help from his elders.

Angel is making the transition from a self-centered child who believes he is entitled to a very talented leader who can guide others with a light hand and eventually to clan leader.

I believe both are half-way through their heroes journey.

Burt is a retired marine without family. He clearly out ranks Michael. Although he brisles under it, he will take orders, but not without getting the last (sarchastic) word. He starts the transition back to father-figure quickly. "You're not alone Blondie". He tries to take command, but does not do well with civilian personality types and freezes when his "daugher" Lizzy is the subject of wrath. He gives up the direct leadership role going back to father and protector. He will bow out of a direct combat role and transition back to the great-grandfather. He comes to terms with the idea that he is well, getting old. it happens to all of us. The mind is willing, but the body does not respond like it used to. They say you never stop being a marine and they also say that every marine a rifleman. Burt showed that a marine is always a marine by ending retirment and going back to active duty. But, even Beowulf eventually falls in battle and Bret Fabre misses a game and then a season.

Damn, too early in the morn' for this type philisophical pontification. This is more of a beer and chips at the pub discussion. TGIF

Shouldn't this thread be the in Other Factions section?

I'm really interested to see what the chain of command is like at the base and also if there is any remains of government.

Surely there must be pockets across the country Like Fort Irwin which have been able to hold out?

Military posts are great at keeping people out (or keeping people in if need be), but there is no guarantee that each post fared as well as we all seem to think Irwin did. A huge factor is if the subordinate commands at those posts supported the higher commands in keeping soldiers there to work. If I knew that something crazy was happening, I would take my family and go farther away from post. I love being a soldier and I take pride in doing the right thing, but in the world of WA, I'm watching out for number 1. I've been trained by the government to kill and survive. I've got guns, ammo, and food. Why get stuck being a soldier and possibly dying or having my family die when I could just take off and survive on my own? Surely the punishment for going AWOL during a zombie outbreak is less severe than death. Also, Fort Irwin in about an hour from another town. Your best choice if you're on post is to stay on post. Almost every other post I've been to is much closer to a city and is kind of a poor choice when trying to hunker down. Zombies don't drive cars, and you can walk on almost any post undetected.

I think you make a pretty good point. But this isn't right after an outbreak. This is a while after. I would think that when things die down a base would be a good place to go. There could possibly be weapons and packaged food behind or, if one was really lucky, people could be there that are willing to help you.

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Originally Posted by random_highjinx

I think you make a pretty good point. But this isn't right after an outbreak. This is a while after. I would think that when things die down a base would be a good place to go. There could possibly be weapons and packaged food behind or, if one was really lucky, people could be there that are willing to help you.

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i don't know, i would avoid ft hood like the plague. true, they've got weapons and ammo, but they are surrounded on almost all sides by kileen, and there is no real way to ensure that people who don't belong stay out. that's about par for the course in the US too. overseas there is considerably more security, but stateside, the best base is proly irwin, as far as security goes.

Irwin and maybe one of the posts up in Alaska. Other than that, there is a city that is pretty much supported by the military which means people will come flooding towards the gate when something crazy starts happening. I know while I was deployed, any time something blew up or shooting started, the civilians came running to us for protection. Screw that. I'm not getting infected because you can't defend yourself. I'll take my happy little soldier ass away from the crowds and hide somewhere safe. Plus, I know how the military works. The chain of command is always slightly behind on things that all of us ground pounders already know. It could be days before anyone that makes real decisions relizes the severity of the situation. By then, you're over run and looking for a nice warm brain to munch on.