Thoughts on part two go here. Enjoy!
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Thoughts on part two go here. Enjoy!
I disagree. I feel like I heard a wavering in Michael's voice that seemed to say, "I'm done repressing this shit. It's too much to bear, I ACTUALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT."
GREAT EFFING EPISODE. It was much needed. I am so glad the gang didn't just hustle their bustles, but rather chose to hunker down, take it slow and deal. Oh and, FUCKING RILEY!
Great episode. I enjoy the banter between Saul and Victor, but it seems like one of them is gonna get killed during or if they do find Lizzy (probably Victor), who I can only assume is still with the Mallers. Nice little touch at the end with the jambalaya, good thing I remembered who it was or I would have been backtracking to find out who. The cliffhanger at the end was good, definitely left me wanting next week's episode to find out what happened. Oh well, until next week =P. ("In-depth" analysis later maybe, still tired XD).
The way Riley just woke up and had heard Michael mention Angel tells me that she was possibly the one providing that muted POV of the chapter 24 recap that opened this season.
Possible but Tayna's a trained Vet. There's no way someone could just "pretend" to be asleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventureless_Hero
I don't think she was pretending, but I do believe she was in and out of it a bit, like a concussion with intermittent consciousness.
Going back to when Riley said she checked the farm for corn and wheat only to find it was rotting, does that me she went to the farm house or just scoped out the field?
I'm not sure what to think about this episode.
Great episode. It feels like were back into the full swing of things now.
It was good to hear the acknowledgment of all the red shirts that died, especially Michael acknowledging that he left Lewis locked up. I'm glad they didn't just let that pass unmentioned.
Also, Saul and Victor planning to head back to the Tower after the dust settles. If the stinger from chapter 24 took place later, maybe Saul and Victor might catch the Mallers there, or see them leaving and follow.
Finally, my wild ass theory of the day: Lewis isn't dead...he'll pop up later looking for revenge. I know it won't happen, but seriously how fun would that be?
Really enjoyed it (as always) a nice slow episode (guess you can't go around knocking buildings over like Jenga). Loved the little bit about Riley's best friend and lover haha nice one KC.
I think Angel has got to be dead. He was on the roof when it went down.
Also what have I missed. Michelangelo saying he didn't get on with Burt? I know they had some Barnes but I thought they still got on...
Oh Riley, what are you doing? Please don't get yourself or anyone else hurt.
Yay to Pegs for landing well.
I am loving seeing Michael become more... human in a way. By that I mean more willing to allow other people in his life, for good and bad. No man is an island Michael.
I am looking forward to seeing how Vic and Saul fall into a team. I think the reason that they rub each other the wrong way is that they are pretty similar in a lot of ways, so this dynamic is going to be good to 'watch' unfold.
They've never got along except when they had to. Alpha males tend to butt heads. They are both very much alphasQuote:
Originally Posted by Bray
I gotta grumble a bit here. When the groups get further fractured it slows things down for me. Let's see, I like cohesion
Michael et al with the chopper
Riley
Saul / Vic
Lizzy
critically injured dude found by Bricks...
...who was put with the old man (men)?
Skittles
Randy (almost certainly not human)
And my "If there aint no body than nobody is dead" So...
Minor characters
Red Shirts
Some below are much more periferral than Red Shirts, but I feel some or all will be back
Maller Group North
Maller Group South
Slaves + Mallers taken to the Hospital after the ambush but before Burt et al get there for the chopper.
Maller group South
Colony Peeps
Second Tower dudes other than hope
I do not know what type of Coyotes you have out west. Maybe they have lost their fear of people. But out here it is next to impossible to get the drop on them. Even at 200 yards down wind they will see me and alter their path. The only time I do get the drop on them is from inside the house while looking out the window. Even then, they will not cross the mowed lawn. They stay to the field even in the Spring when there is no cover. It is like one tells the other, Dude, don't walk on the old man's grass he's nuts!
Wow just realised how much auto correct changed in that sentence haha, yeah I'd always picked up on the 'alpha male' I wanna be on top thing, just never would have classed it as a dislike...but in my world I like to pretend everyone gets on just fine :)Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
Only voodoo snark even comes close! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
Just playing nikvoodoo
But I guess the way Riley reacted to the news that Angel was (probably) toast finally confirms her feelings for him and at the very least establishes that she is not a full lesbian, just bi-curious or straight :cool:
Just curious, and a way to further this discussion, what qualities make either one an alpha?Quote:
Originally Posted by nikvoodoo
I don't know, Bray. I can't see KC just cutting Shane out of the 2nd half of the series after he played such a big part in the first half. Aside from that, the only way I can imagine that Angel would've survived is if he was somehow able to climb down the loose bit of rope that was still attached to his side before the building collapsed...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bray
I think that the ability to be self-assurred about their own decisions and thought processes, and a confidence that their own plan is correct (both good and bad decisions). Both Michael and Burt both were able to and wanted to take charge and make the choices for the tower. It is something you saw also in Angel when he was in a really tight situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kc
Also, right before Riley left she was writing in her journal. I wonder if she left it behind?
To me, I agree with the majority of cupcakes points. The main thing I have to question is would an alpha male even let himself get into a position where his authority was openly questioned? I'm doubtful of that.... In my mind a good example of the "alpha" personality would be Marcus..and we see how things worked out for a person like that in a situation like this...be glad michael/burt are not true "alphas". Close? Maybe...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kc
I think Alphas can be questioned, it is more that they put themselves to be in the position of power rather then how hard they hold onto it. Marcus was an alpha who ruled by force, but Burt and Michael were alphas that trie to rule more fairly.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7oddisdead
The coyotes here will come pretty close to people. Like especially on bike trails and stuff. You wont see 'em during the day, but early morning and late at night, it's not an irregular to see one. The big reason is cause people just built their houses all over coyote territory so they're still around. Like you'll see warnings posted about letting animals out at night, cause sometimes coyotes kill emQuote:
Originally Posted by Arthur LaMarche
And was Michael was the one who left the tray out, it was his flavour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
Yes. Yes of course...michael/burt just don't strike me as the true "alpha" type in general. If you think back to the very beginning and the way everyone naturally looked to Michael as the one in charge...that would be a great example of the alpha persona...but it's just not very typical for the group rather than another alpha to want to give their leader the boot....hell who knows. I'm starting to confuse myself now.Quote:
Originally Posted by cupcakezombie
Yeah, we used to see coyotes at soccer practice all the time. They get bold sometimes, one even came really close to the field we were playing on. And without as many humans around, the animals are bound to notice and start to come out more. We don't know if the zombies eat the animals or not, but if they don't then the animals will become bolder and go where they had learned to avoid because of humans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
see that's the thing thoug. I don't think either of them are true alphas. Neither of them took a leadership role. When Saul was asked, "what's the plan?" and "where do we go from here" all he had to offer was i dont know, i dont know. Neither of them really took command. I mean I suppose there was no way Victor was really going to be able to get Saul to follow him, but even when Victor offered to follow Saul, Saul kinda turned him down and told him to piss off.Quote:
Originally Posted by cupcakezombie
I'd say alphas are those who take leadership and take control of the situation. Like, Burt and Michael, what these guys are doing seem more like the bare minimum to survive.
I'd disagree to that. If the leader has made bad decisions in the group's eyes, then they'd choose another leader regardless of whether or not the original leader was an alpha or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7oddisdead
see last sentence in my post. Voodoo can keep this whole devils advocate gig...i hate trying to argue against opinionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ra1th
I agree with for the sake of argument. I'm just trying to bring some other examples of the alpha type into the discussion.
Both Michael and Burt share a sort of "loner mentality"
Michael has made it pretty clear that he doesn't really want to be in charge, but feels like he has to be. When something goes wrong and people die, he always places the blame on himself. He doesn't want the responsibility for everyone else but he also can't just leave everyone to fend for themselves. When the outbreak started, if Michael had his way he probably would have gone off on his own. It was only his sense of responsibility that forced him to go out, look for survivors, and then take charge of the situation.
Burt, on the other hand, is a survivalist type who doesn't seem to trust anyone but himself to be in charge. He doesn't want to trust someone else with life and death decisions so he tries to take charge and make them himself.
In the end I guess they both felt a need to take charge and inevitably butt heads when those needs clashed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardKor
Yes. I always thought that an 'alpha male' is the guy who always insists that he is in the right, that his idea is the best, that his plan is the most practical / sensible / workable / economical / etc. I don't think it's necessarily arrogance but more a perverted sense of responsibility combined with a fundamental inability to trust others.
From that basic understanding, it seems that Michael and Burt both have alpha qualities: Michael has learned to rely on himself, not only because he is very capable, but also because from past experience he has probably been around a lot of Army guys who have fucked things up because of stupidity and/or incompetence. Burt has also learned to rely on himself, not only as a quasi-paranoid survivalist but also in flying solo since Shirley died.
And also both have issues with trust: many examples of Michael not trusting civilians, not opening up emotionally to Reilly or Pegs, not trusting newcomers to the tower with what he perceived as 'classified' information about the lack of water, etc. Burt, for his part, hasn't trusted others (especially Michael) to make the right decisions, to have good intentions, or to make the shot when it counts. It's interesting that as the story goes on both Burt and Michael are having to learn to trust others and admit weakness in themselves-- they are coming to realize this just isn't a war they can win all by themselves, no matter how capable they may be in certain respects.
So there is my 2 cent literary analysis for you-- now can we get Burt back into this story, please? If I have to go another month without hearing one of his bad-ass movie catchphrases I'm going to go berserk... :mad:
Victor sounded like more of a prick in this episode than before, but Saul wasn't really helping. Of course they are tired and hungry, I can become quite an unpleasant person if I am starving and exhausted too. Thus I'm willing to cut them some slack. Plus Victor has always been somewhat of an ass, it has kept him alive.
Hands down my favourite part was when Kelly was wondering about Riley's sexuality. It was like she had been on the forums and seen us all discussing it. I did find it slightly strange, because except for one snark remark Victor made about Angel never being able to touch Riley, none of the other characters have discussed or hinted in dialogue the mystery of who Riley likes. Still Kelly was a hoot in this episode.
One of the reasons I love this series is how human everyone is. They have to stop and emotionally deal with the fact that everyone is dead. Michael knows everything in the world except how relationships work and CANNOT take a hint. Sometimes I want to slap the guy because Pegs was being obvious. Saul and Victor are running on the ends of the ropes, leading to each others throats. The two people Riley cares most about are in LA and she will go back and find them on foot dammnit! Despite the fact she probably can't find her way, it's a suicide mission and pretty dang far at this point. I always found Angel's flirtation with Riley pretty cute and cheered him on when he went all out protecting her ("DON'T! TOUCH! HER!"). I was touched when Riley's first questions were all about Angel, where is he, and is he okay. They were talking about Burt at the same time, but she could only worry about Angel. Made me smile despite the man tear that was lurking behind my eye.
Lastly, I am worried about Saul's medicine. Tanya said if he doesn't get the drip started at the right time, then the drugs will be ineffective. Too little time between doses and he will overdose (They said it is powerful, last resort stuff, and any drug can mess you up if you have too much in your system). Too much time between letting his drip run and the infection will been given time to get resistant or something. Saul's watch breaking might have killed him
With the last two episodes it feels like the story is still winded, sitting back against the wall and recovering from the exhausting season finale. I feel a bit like Arthur LaMarche: the characters are fractioning in progressively smaller chunks and that can only slow down the pace. Then again, this is the trend of the season, beginning from the major split up in the finale and continuing along. I have to admit that Riley leaving the group felt a bit too much to me, like "What, MORE LITTLE GROUPS?!"; on the other hand, as they split more and more, desperation creeps in and who knows, it could set the mood for an alone Michael "writing this to keep my own sanity", and building up to some kind of great reunion in this season's finale. Can't wait to see what KC has planned.
Yeah, I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventureless_Hero
Probably scoped out.
Kind of a slow one, setting the scene, letting everyone know where they are and reflect on things.
The calm before the storm?
Saul is being such a dick. I know he's tired, hungry, worried about Lizzy, yadda yadda yadda.
All victor has done is help him (admittedly begrudgingly).
If it wasn't for Victor, they both wouldn't have made it out of the demolition site alive.
He shows some concern about the security of the 50 cal and Saul rips into him.
Victor asks if he can have a little food and Saul's like "I've only brought enough for me" - Prick.
No wonder Victor wants to go it alone.
Now, I don't mind Saul, I think he's good guy, but he's doing even more not thinking logically than usual.
As for them both being Alpha males, they are certainly both headstrong, but act more like selfish adolescents than leaders. But then again, who said Alpha males ever want to lead, they just want to be in charge - there is a difference.
Saul is in love.... still.... That's why he's not thinking logically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeebogs
I disagree, Alpha Males are just Males that become known. They don't try to become known. It just happens naturally.
Well, if that's the case, Love must be pretty scarce in the world, otherwise NOTHING would get done. ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by daredevil
Hmmm.... Alphas?
Yes, they both exert leadership qualities. But, I never chalked the friction up to alpha.
For Michael I think it is more of age difference thing.
Burt hasn't even got outta the hummer before Michael Lashes out at him and discounts him. After Burt helps clean the tower (something that I do not think could be accomplished without Burt and his goodies) Michael still has a chip on his shoulder. Burt shows up afterwards and gives Michael a fancy Pistol with a Silencer. I take handing over a pistol (or sword years ago) is REALLY symbolic from all the movies I have seen. Meet, Surender, terms, give pistol, nah, keep the pistol as asign of respect.
Case 2 Kalani. Kalani has grey throughout his hair and I get the impression he is older. What was Michael's first words? Who the hell is this? as well as Oh, yea, this guy.
Kelly. Lawyer (Lots of school) and two marriages. I put her as older. Michael really leaps for the deep end when michael, Tommy and Kelly are together regarding the video cam. It is smoother now, but there is a lot of water under that bridge. When both were at their lowest they started their bounce back up. Neither was really try to influence the other and they had their Epiphenies in the presence of one another rather than because of the other. This does create a type of bond.
Parents. There is more of a story than has been shown to us in my opinion. We would need to plot it out to be sure, but I get the feeling Michael signed up right after 9/11. His parents did not approve. First tour (idealistic) gung-ho. Third tour (disillusioned) tired and depressed. Hmm... like maybe feeling his parents were right and the Army was not the place for him.
So, for me, with Michael it is not as much alpha or authority as it is age-related.
Burt wants to gear into a well-ordered military machine. He will bare the yoke of a follower, but wants is ideas in a council of war to be considered, not just ignored as they are with Michael. "Just trying to help" "why not go back to my shop" Three I told you-sos in one day. etc. When Michael comes back from the colony, Burt falls right back into squad leader. He tells victor, Michael says you stay here. You could help, but you can't. Later, he still thinks he is in command when Angel arrives. Angel is pushing hard for command and Burt bows out. But, even I can hear the vitriol in his words when told to do someting by Angel.
For Burt, it is following orders. Before the "these cheetos may have just saved our asses", their is no command structure and everyone is pretty much screwed. With the Ammo is found and a chain of command albeit weak, he is back on task and leads the assault to take the fire truck. He does his best when Michael steps down and Angel does not stepup. Sure, there is grumbling about meeting length. But, the tower gets by OK. In fact, his biggest SNAFU when the tower fractures is in fact trying to abide by the rules put in place by MICHAEL. He ties to handle it by sweeping it under the rug till morning. But, Steven goes Ballistic. Burt's brain is realling, he is faced with a Solomonic choice. But, before he can come up with a Split the Baby, Lizzy takes it out of his hands. She makes the call. We know that Burt has a propensity to follow orders and makes the mistake of defaulting back to following rules. Had he stuck with his Buddha Belly and postpone anything irrevocable to the next morhing... Well, we have to rewrite most of Season 2.
well, if you read this far, time for another lesson. General Eisenhower teaches Never rush to make a poor descision.