Where is the Brass?

We know of a silenced Berreta and a Silenced MP5. I do not have too much knowledge of guns. But, I think they are side discharge weapons.

If so, there should be four brass cases on the floor. From what we heard, it does not seem that shooter took the time to pick them up. But, there was some pause between shots, so maybe the shooter did.

If there are not any cases we are looking for a revolver, right? Alternatively, the brass was not seen admists the turmoil and the Shooter doubled back to pick them up at a later time.

It is interesting to note that the person left alone in the guard room after the shooting is Riley.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought about that.

When I saw your thread I thought you were going to ask where the "Brass" was. Like the higher ups in the military or government. I can't believe that we haven't heard anything from anyone with any "Authority".

I am going to have to go back and listen again fro the casings. I don't remember hearing any either. I don't think it matters but, ehh it's something WA related. So, why not.

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Originally Posted by Tandem25

That's a good point. I hadn't thought about that.

When I saw your thread I thought you were going to ask where the "Brass" was. Like the higher ups in the military or government. I can't believe that we haven't heard anything from anyone with any "Authority".

I am going to have to go back and listen again fro the casings. I don't remember hearing any either. I don't think it matters but, ehh it's something WA related. So, why not.

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There were no casings found at the scene-

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Originally Posted by Kc

There were no casings found at the scene-

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That opens up new lines of thought. Either someone really knew what they were doing (enough to keep their head), or do we have a new gun?

Also, great thinking Arthur!

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Originally Posted by Kc

There were no casings found at the scene-

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Before or after Riley's guard duy? :D

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Originally Posted by j0be

Before or after Riley's guard duy? :D

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Oh, that is a good point too!

Here's my only issue with the idea of a revolver using a suppressor: the gap between the cylinder barrel. This gap still allows the expanding gas to escape which is where the sound of a gunshot comes from. A suppressor screwed into the end of a gun wouldn't account for this, so we should have heard a louder gun shot and not the typical "Hollywood" effect of the silenced discharge.

That means to me that the shooter had to police their brass. There is a gap between the shooter's first three shots and the final one. It could be during that time that the casings were picked up. And maybe they were able to pick up the last one directed at the radio as they were leaving.

You know a lot more about it than I do. I do not want to parse the sound effects closely. What we heard was the classic holywood sound effect of a silenced pistol. In the field ('Nam) the silencer was developed not to make the weapon silent it Was to make it so it did not sound like a gun shot. These weapons were called "Hushpuppies". Maybe holywood took the name silencer and hushpuppy for a silent weapon. But the terms are actually more nefarious. I will not go there here. Look it up if you are burning to know.

Last, it is also my understanding that the effectiveness degrades with each use.

I've posted the the general difference between what we heard in the Guard Room vs. what an actual suppressor does in the WND Episode 16 thread, but I'll repost and relocated it here:

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Originally Posted by Coolluck

I would just like to note my disappointment with the silencer, suppressor, whatever you want to call it. It was the typical silencer used in movies and stuff. While this is all well and good, apparently, it is not accurate. Silencers aren't as effective as we have been led to believe. Breaking Bad actually got the correct sound right from what I've read. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMUN5KqFHSo

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You are correct. That suppressor SFX heard in in 22-1 is not accurate to real life. Mythbusters recently covered the difference between Movie Suppressor SFX vs. the Real Sound. They discovered that while not exactly similar, the suppressor cuts the decibel level of a .45 caliber pistol from 161 db down to 126 db. Their conclusion was the typical movie sound effect is "Plausible" to real life in terms of its ability to suppress the sound of a shot fired from a gun, but it wasn't spot on which is why they didn't confirm it. (http://mythbustersresults.com/blow-your-own-sail)

The video you posted sounds similar to the shots Adam and Jamie fired in the episode, though they were in a firing range so it's hard to tell because the sound heard on TV was so echo-y. But it certainly doesn't sound like the familiar high pitched woosh sound we're all accustomed to hearing. Depending on the stat set you want to look at, the suppressed shot's decibel level (126db) is either just at, or just below the threshold where permanent damage is done to your hearing even with brief exposure. That is most certainly not represented by the "woosh" movie sound.

I won't speak for Kc or any of his editors/sound designers, however the main reason to use the familiar sound is just that: it's familiar. Especially not being able to see the weapon in question, it behooves creators and designers of audio dramas to use the sound most closely associated to it in popular culture. You strive to tell a clear story and sometimes you need to cheat reality. Breaking Bad has the advantage of visuals to support their sound track. We in the audience can see the suppressor on the end of the gun and will excuse the lack of typical SFX because we can see the gun in action and there's not a question as to what's happening on screen.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Here's my only issue with the idea of a revolver using a suppressor: the gap between the cylinder barrel. This gap still allows the expanding gas to escape which is where the sound of a gunshot comes from. A suppressor screwed into the end of a gun wouldn't account for this, so we should have heard a louder gun shot and not the typical "Hollywood" effect of the silenced discharge.

That means to me that the shooter had to police their brass. There is a gap between the shooter's first three shots and the final one. It could be during that time that the casings were picked up. And maybe they were able to pick up the last one directed at the radio as they were leaving.

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I'm going to lean in the direction that the shooter policed up the brass... that said you can suppress some revolvers such as the 1895 Nagant (Devils advocate: Burt could have had one and might be the special weapon). The crack that you hear in the gunshot is also when the bullet itself breaks the sound barrier, that's why if you are using a suppressed weapon you need to use subsonic rounds or you'll still get a pretty loud "crack".

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Originally Posted by Leedo2502

I'm going to lean in the direction that the shooter policed up the brass... that said you can suppress some revolvers such as the 1895 Nagant (Devils advocate: Burt could have had one and might be the special weapon). The crack that you hear in the gunshot is also when the bullet itself breaks the sound barrier, that's why if you are using a suppressed weapon you need to use subsonic rounds or you'll still get a pretty loud "crack".

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I read that too in my research against the revolver, but I wasn't as clear about the mechanics and certainly wouldn't be capable of defending the point against anyone that could bring up a question about it.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I read that too in my research against the revolver, but I wasn't as clear about the mechanics and certainly wouldn't be capable of defending the point against anyone that could bring up a question about it.

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Here you go Nik this might aswer some questions about the Ammo types
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=socgmULGVOA

Also the Nagant cylinder actually moves forward and seals onto the barrel when the trigger is pulled and moves back to cycle in a new round

Thanks all for the edification. I also lean towards policed brass. But, I am leaning towards it occurring later. Not at the time of the shooting. I cannot see any of residents as a stone cold killer. I am not sure that they had their stuff together to murder and police. My opinion is that they were observed later and the shooter said oh crap. I gotta pick those up.

Wild card how hot is the brass in the first fifteen seconds? Would the shooter also remembered to have gloves or a piece of cloth?

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Originally Posted by Arthur LaMarche

Wild card how hot is the brass in the first fifteen seconds? Would the shooter also remembered to have gloves or a piece of cloth?

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Angel didn't smell gunpowder on anyone's hands. I still feel like the people not showering is an excuse. I've always found that gunpowder is a very powerful smell, but maybe that's just me. This to me indicates the shooter wore gloves.

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Originally Posted by Arthur LaMarche

Wild card how hot is the brass in the first fifteen seconds? Would the shooter also remembered to have gloves or a piece of cloth?

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I'm going to lean in with Nik on this... Gloves make the most sense, but brass from a 9mm isn't all that hot after shooting it. At army ranges I shoot it and pick up my brass and put it in my pocket while I'm waiting for the crusty eyed yahoo's that need alibi fires to reshoot

Nice get Nik! For the sake of argument I will counter with or washed them with alcohol. But in either case it is more planning than I gave the shooter credit for

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Originally Posted by Arthur LaMarche

Nice get Nik! For the sake of argument I will counter with or washed them with alcohol. But in either case it is more planning than I gave the shooter credit for

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Hey, this person has (if you believe they are responsible for everything) betrayed the Tower, stole all their goods, started a War with the Mallers, hidden among the survivors of the Tower for months on end, manufactured the situation to assassinate Pippin, and has thus far gotten away with all of it.

At this point, I'd believe the Rat was capable of making Jimmy Hoffa disappear.

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Originally Posted by Kc

There were no casings found at the scene-

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Awesome. Thanks. I listened again and couldn't hear any.

I would me more impressed if they made Jimmy Hoffa reappear . 8)

I do not think the shooter is also the thief. But if so, the only suspects left are
Red Shirt
Steven has risen above Red Shirt, but not much
Kelley
Pegs
Lizzie could be thief / rat. But not shooter
Am I missing anyone?

Kelley and Pegs could have made contact with the mallers during R&R episode, but we were not given any hints as we were for Riley / Michael / Burt

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Here's my only issue with the idea of a revolver using a suppressor: the gap between the cylinder barrel. This gap still allows the expanding gas to escape which is where the sound of a gunshot comes from. A suppressor screwed into the end of a gun wouldn't account for this, so we should have heard a louder gun shot and not the typical "Hollywood" effect of the silenced discharge.

That means to me that the shooter had to police their brass. There is a gap between the shooter's first three shots and the final one. It could be during that time that the casings were picked up. And maybe they were able to pick up the last one directed at the radio as they were leaving.

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What would be the purpose of finding the ejected shells anyway? What would they gain from finding them? Also, they don't make suppressors for revolvers ( I think Nik cleared that up).
One last point, revolvers "Cycle" when they're fired. You can always tell a revolver when it's used because of that sound.

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Originally Posted by Arthur LaMarche

Thanks all for the edification. I also lean towards policed brass. But, I am leaning towards it occurring later. Not at the time of the shooting. I cannot see any of residents as a stone cold killer. I am not sure that they had their stuff together to murder and police. My opinion is that they were observed later and the shooter said oh crap. I gotta pick those up.

Wild card how hot is the brass in the first fifteen seconds? Would the shooter also remembered to have gloves or a piece of cloth?

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Arthur,
The brass is hot enough to get your attention and hot enough to burn "IF" it sits on you. The heat also depends on the..the.. crap! I forget what it's called.. oh yah, pressure. That's why you have high velocity rounds like +P and +P+
The barrels have to be certified to handle those rounds, if not you risk the chamber exploding.
I've never gotten burned from and M16 round, but I have from a Glock .9m. Weird.

From the cases we can tell if it is a .22 a .38 a .45. Hope may be able to tell them that it was a silenced weapon. I think she was too shock up and did not provide that information. So, our heroes do not even know that it was a silenced weapon. Angel said he could not have heard anything because of the alarm. If it is a 9mm it could be a berreta, right? Not much help. There are a lot of those running around. If it is a .44Magnum that is a lot of info for Angel and MIcheal. I have not heard any mention of these. But if there was one they can say oh yea, steven thinks he is Dirty Harry running around with that magnum...

But, we now "know" that no brass was found at the scene. It is pretty much a dead end. But, when I opened the thread it had not been mentioned one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Arthur LaMarche

From the cases we can tell if it is a .22 a .38 a .45. Hope may be able to tell them that it was a silenced weapon. I think she was too shock up and did not provide that information. So, our heroes do not even know that it was a silenced weapon. Angel said he could not have heard anything because of the alarm. If it is a 9mm it could be a berreta, right? Not much help. There are a lot of those running around. If it is a .44Magnum that is a lot of info for Angel and MIcheal. I have not heard any mention of these. But if there was one they can say oh yea, steven thinks he is Dirty Harry running around with that magnum...

But, we now "know" that no brass was found at the scene. It is pretty much a dead end. But, when I opened the thread it had not been mentioned one way or another.

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Ah.. I see. I was thinking you wanted some CSI type info. LOL.
Sounded like a .9m to me.
I think Burt is the only one running around with a revovler. I know KC said there wasn't any "Found" at the scene, but the shooter didn't have enough time to police the area and get out. You hear the shots.. oh crap. you hear Hope pleading and there is some gap in time before the last round goes off.. hmm...
Dammit! That's quick though. I know how far a casing ejects from a Berreta and a Glock (Glock eject harder/further) so between target aquisition..ie Pippen (center mass double tap), being cognizant of the casings locations, walking up to deal the coup de grace, listening for anyone in the hallway.. is a stretch for me.

That is where I lean. But, since none were "found" they are still there or picked up. It is my prejudice that the only one who would want to pick up bullet cases at the scene of a crime would be the shooter. If we make that assumption, Everyone gets sent to one area where statements were taken. Except for

Michael
Hope
Tanya
(Riley) -- She is the one who is sent to the guard room to take over for Angel and Hope. Enough to convict? Hell no. But, if we believe the shooter had to come back to the scene of the crime to pick up the brass, Kalani gets a pass for sure. I still think he gets a pass because he was with Datu and I do not think Kalani could convince Datu to drive off with an alarm sounding. Yea, maybe they did not hear it. But, I am trying to simplify things. Not make them more complicated with another pile of caveats.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Ah.. I see. I was thinking you wanted some CSI type info. LOL.
Sounded like a .9m to me.
I think Burt is the only one running around with a revovler. I know KC said there wasn't any "Found" at the scene, but the shooter didn't have enough time to police the area and get out. You hear the shots.. oh crap. you hear Hope pleading and there is some gap in time before the last round goes off.. hmm...
Dammit! That's quick though. I know how far a casing ejects from a Berreta and a Glock (Glock eject harder/further) so between target aquisition..ie Pippen (center mass double tap), being cognizant of the casings locations, walking up to deal the coup de grace, listening for anyone in the hallway.. is a stretch for me.

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I really don't see a big gain in (finding/not find the casings)... More than likely, Tonya will be able to extract a bullet and see what what it is... I'm going to take a wild stab and say that they are Full Metal Jacket rounds and those do not deform like a hollow point... it's not like they can send the casings off to have the prints pulled by the CSI crew!
I know they have the MP5 that is surpressed, I know that is 9mm... I honestly don't know if I caught what the pistol was that Burt gave Michael... I think it was just refered to as "the silent pistol" so at most you're only looking at 2 different calibers

Kanji, when Michael arrives at the colony and he presents his weapon to Gatekeeper Michael says Beretta. Gatekeeper adds with a silencer, very nice... I am nearly certain that is what I heard.

From the bullets we get caliber

From the lack of casings, we know they were picked up. If there is limited time at the shooting, the shooter may have required another opportunity. The way I figure it, the shooter must be at least roughly in the doorway. The weapon is raised and aimed within the room. Just yesterday Michael yelled about how messing the guard room was and why didn't anyone clean this up. This makes the brass even harder to find. Who has access to the crime scene after the crime?

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Originally Posted by Arthur LaMarche

Kanji, when Michael arrives at the colony and he presents his weapon to Gatekeeper Michael says Beretta. Gatekeeper adds with a silencer, very nice... I am nearly certain that is what I heard.

From the bullets we get caliber

From the lack of casings, we know they were picked up. If there is limited time at the shooting, the shooter may have required another opportunity. The way I figure it, the shooter must be at least roughly in the doorway. The weapon is raised and aimed within the room. Just yesterday Michael yelled about how messing the guard room was and why didn't anyone clean this up. This makes the brass even harder to find. Who has access to the crime scene after the crime?

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I think you're right about it being beretta... good catch... so a safe bet any round fired from any of their supprespers are 9mm
KC just said that there wasn't anyfound... not that they wasn't any to be found.... and even if they did, who's to say they are not there from the War or the time they were over ran, and just didn't get picked up...
The only person that could have had the chance to pick them up was Riley and she's been cleared because Hope couldn't smell her...

I could be wrong... but I think this is just a wild goose chase

It might be, but we had to have this banter last two weeks. 8). Unless we get a confession, we have to build the case on a pro ponderous of evidence. There may be leftovers from the war, but the vast majority of the fighting was on the second and third floor. I think the current guardroom is on the fith. Even the lee harvy that accelerated the confrontation was on the third floor.

But you are right. If Michael does not think about it then it does not rise to the status of wild goose chase.

You are right, Hope did not report smelling her. But I do not think she sounds like someone in the midst of a drinking binge. I do not want it to be Riley, I am just pulling together what I can

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Originally Posted by Arthur LaMarche

You are right, Hope did not report smelling her. But I do not think she sounds like someone in the midst of a drinking binge. I do not want it to be Riley, I am just pulling together what I can

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neither do I... she's my Fav!!!.... this is worse then "who shot JR"

I'm thinking the casing are still there. I just don't buy that there was time to find and pick up ejected shells. The shooter was moving as he/she shot anyway.
So here's the scenerio in my mind.
- Shooter enters the room and closes the door. Pippen's light bulb goes on, then the shooter hits the off switch by putting two in his chest. The trajectory of the ejected casings is going to push them to the right side and probably bounce off the wall. Where they finally rest is gonna be a real guess in a messy room.
-Shooter walks further into the room while Hope is pleading for her life.
-Shooter puts ensures kill by putting one in Pip's gray matter. Another casing ejected and this time it's probably on the bed or on the floor near the headboard.
-Shooter takes out the radio. So, 4 ejected shells lay at random spots in the room and time is of the essence.

Basically what I'm saying is that there wasn't enough time to find and police the ejected shells or a reason to do so. there's no threat from anyone finding them. The gun can be kept, dropped in a random spot or hidden and no one will be the wiser.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Arthur,

I've never gotten burned from and M16 round, but I have from a Glock .9m. Weird.

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You got burned by 9mm brass... pansy LOL!

I'll say that you didn't get the burn from the 5.56 because it might have been laying in the grass at the range for a bit. When we are at a 9mm range I usually pick up my brass and put it in my pocket while the yahoo's that don't know how to clean their weapons get an alibi fire after they get a malfunction and can't quite figure out SPORTS on a M-9.