Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower?

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Originally Posted by Kc

That's something said in hindsight of course ;) No pun intended.

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Kc.. NOT! LOL. His actions only prove what those of us in the W.D.W.A club have said since day one. Angel works best in tandem, but even then he's wishy washy. Once you get him moving, he's a good cat to have around, but....

I'll use Post Burt Rescue Angel as my examples here:

1. Angel/Kalani/Behemoth episode. Skittles pulled the trigger on the molotov while the two of them were doing their "Who's on First" bit. Kalani came up with the actual strategy. Angel came up with the idea only. Kalani killed the beast.

2. He didn't put his foot down when Lizzy was ejected. He played up the whole i'm hurt, I was tired thing. Man the Puk up! He had enough energy to come downstairs and inquire..... and, wasn't he TOLD by Burt to go back upstairs anyway??

3. The tower was in disarray in multiple areas. It wasn't clean anymore and Burt was having leadership style issues
Angel SHOULD have been Burt's "Grant" (as in Gen Grant). He let Burt flop around like a hooked Catfish on hot Mississippi asphalt.

4. Any person with one leadership pube on their nutts would have had a "Come to Jesus Meeting" with Steven about his derisive attitude. Stevie boy would had a very very clear understanding about his place and his mouth. You can also say that he'd be called out to the woodshed.. if you don't get that saying, how about this: He'd get his ass whooped.

Last, but not least.. dumbeldorf runs out the room and two people end up with lead poisoning.

I'm gonna sign off with this last thing: Wait till Michael hears about this..................

PS.. I waited until I was finished to tell you that W.D.W.A is:
We Don't Worship Angel. I'm not only a subscriber, I'm also the President. ROFL.

Eventually, I think there will be a point where Angel will lead. Whether, it's because of Michael's absence (or death), or a split-up of the Towerfolk. (ie: Two teams, but one group gets separated and needs Angel's leadership) Angel is smarter and tougher than you think... and I'm a member of the Angel fan club, so I've been brainwashed! hahaHAHAH!

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Originally Posted by cupcakezombie

The reason he has the position he has is because he has the military training. People in high ranking military positions always get judged by civilians, but if as you say he is making the right decisions from a military position then it shouldn't change the decisions that he makes or will have to make. There could come a time where his type of choices become critical to the survival of the tower.
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When you're ASSIGNED a duty, that is your DUTY! Take this as experience from someone who's been assigned to Entry Control Point duty at Weapons Storage Areas, guarded NUKES and classified planes. You DON'T leave your post just because an alarm goes off. It's called dereliction of duty. Angel should have got on one of the walkie Talkies and called someone or stuck his head out the door and yelled.

The person on watch isn't the first responder, he/she is the director of those forces.

The main fact is that he DIDN'T think. He was supposed to monitor the.. monitors and Pippin. What if there was another attack from the mallers and the Alarm was a diversion. He'd never know because he left the room. His reaction was, well, a reaction and not calculated thought.
Here's where there's another leadership failure. Overall, Mike will take responsibility of not instituting a checklist or an inter tower communication sytem

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In regards to leaving Hope without saying anything to her, would saying Hope stay here have made any difference? Then on the flip side, taking Hope with him could potentially have been more dangerous. Someone breaking in to get guns is not where you should take a blind girl. We still don't actually know what has happened down at the armory, there could be all hell breaking loose, and Hope staying in the guard room, even with a prisoner is safer. In fact that is probably the first place people will go when they come to check out the alarm.

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First thing is you NEVER leave a kid with a stranger. second thing is you NEVER leave a kid with a potentially dangerous stranger.
Third this is, Angel would have been in the best position to protect Hope if something was going down. I'm going to assume that Angel and the crew are constantly armed, so it'd be an even exchange IF it was the situation.
Angel should have locked the room (if he really felt he had to go) and had Hope tag along until he could have someone trust worthy watch her then ran off to the alarm.
Fourth thing is you don't run haphazard into a potentially dangerous situation. Panic causes more deaths than anything else in an emergency situation. Calm heads and measured steps are needed.

So, now Angel has to deal with the guilt of two possible deaths because reacted instead of taking action.

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Kc.. NOT! LOL. His actions only prove what those of us in the W.D.W.A club have said since day one. Angel works best in tandem, but even then he's wishy washy. Once you get him moving, he's a good cat to have around, but....

I'll use Post Burt Rescue Angel as my examples here:

1. Angel/Kalani/Behemoth episode. Skittles pulled the trigger on the molotov while the two of them were doing their "Who's on First" bit. Kalani came up with the actual strategy. Angel came up with the idea only. Kalani killed the beast.

2. He didn't put his foot down when Lizzy was ejected. He played up the whole i'm hurt, I was tired thing. Man the Puk up! He had enough energy to come downstairs and inquire..... and, wasn't he TOLD by Burt to go back upstairs anyway??

3. The tower was in disarray in multiple areas. It wasn't clean anymore and Burt was having leadership style issues
Angel SHOULD have been Burt's "Grant" (as in Gen Grant). He let Burt flop around like a hooked Catfish on hot Mississippi asphalt.

4. Any person with one leadership pube on their nutts would have had a "Come to Jesus Meeting" with Steven about his derisive attitude. Stevie boy would had a very very clear understanding about his place and his mouth. You can also say that he'd be called out to the woodshed.. if you don't get that saying, how about this: He'd get his ass whooped.

Last, but not least.. dumbeldorf runs out the room and two people end up with lead poisoning.

I'm gonna sign off with this last thing: Wait till Michael hears about this..................

PS.. I waited until I was finished to tell you that W.D.W.A is:
We Don't Worship Angel. I'm not only a subscriber, I'm also the President. ROFL.

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I must help defend ANGEL! So... Here's my answers to these issues Crowbar.

1) Angel showed bravery, and leadership, by putting his own life on the line and baiting away a 10ft tall carnivorous monster, so that the Tower could get the MRE's to survive. He put his troops ahead of himself.

2) Angel really WAS hurt when Lizzy was ejected... and he was possibly getting some action that night, so leave 'im alone. :)

3) Burt would not give up his command until he was ready, and after Lizzy left, he relinquished it. He became exhausted, and had Michael (original leader) not returned in time, he may have turned it over to Angel.

4) FYI: Even Michael "caved" to Steven when he pulled his whiny "I don't wanna guard Pippin" BS. Michael didn't ream him out or really give him shit about his attitude. Michael didn't even question Steven when he said he was gonna crack some heads, about Lizzy's ejection. He didn't do shit to Steven.

5) Obviously the Rat is a sneaky lil' SOB, and planned that whomever was on guard duty, would run to check Burt's armory, while they snuck in and shot Pippin. (AND we don't know that Hope's been Shot ;) ) They had this planned for anyone to run and check it out, but it just happened that Hope was left in the room to add to the dramatic suspense!

If he was getting some action that night that actually would be several points against him for being the world's biggest douche and just ignoring what was happening. Burt turned the leadership over to Michael because he knew that the people wanted Michael to lead again. Go back and listen to that transition again. He acknowledged that he didn't have it in him to lead and he saw the people's allegiances changing

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Originally Posted by Rock Daddy

I must help defend ANGEL! So... Here's my answers to these issues Crowbar.

1) Angel showed bravery, and leadership, by putting his own life on the line and baiting away a 10ft tall carnivorous monster, so that the Tower could get the MRE's to survive. He put his troops ahead of himself.

2) Angel really WAS hurt when Lizzy was ejected... and he was possibly getting some action that night, so leave 'im alone. :)

3) Burt would not give up his command until he was ready, and after Lizzy left, he relinquished it. He became exhausted, and had Michael (original leader) not returned in time, he may have turned it over to Angel.

4) FYI: Even Michael "caved" to Steven when he pulled his whiny "I don't wanna guard Pippin" BS. Michael didn't ream him out or really give him shit about his attitude. Michael didn't even question Steven when he said he was gonna crack some heads, about Lizzy's ejection. He didn't do shit to Steven.

5) Obviously the Rat is a sneaky lil' SOB, and planned that whomever was on guard duty, would run to check Burt's armory, while they snuck in and shot Pippin. (AND we don't know that Hope's been Shot ;) ) They had this planned for anyone to run and check it out, but it just happened that Hope was left in the room to add to the dramatic suspense!

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Rock, Rock, Rock... ok my man... where shall I start here?

1. Angel's bravery isn't an indication of anything other than him not dying in a dynamically fluid survival situation that he wasn't prepared to face. Skittles is the one who saved them. Skittles is the one who threw the molotov when Angel couldn't. Skittles fixed the car.
Kalani came up with the actual strategy on how to kill the Behemoth. Angel did what he had to do to survive the situation as it changed around him... barely. There was no leaderhip displayed in those episodes. Kalani didn't defer to him one time.

Here's the crux of leadership: People look to leaders for motivation. If anyone can give me ONE example of anyone looking to Angel or deferring to Angel. I'll STFU about his leadership skills.. er, lack thereof. LOL


2. I didn't say he wasn't really hurt. Here's the point i'm making. In the military, one of the first things you learn is to suck ish up! If you're injured, you acknowledge it, but keep moving. You never let being hurt become an excuse. He was in good enough shape to be wandering around to find out what happened. Mike has a broken arm. One that was wasn't even set. That's a real injury..not just "hurt" and he manned up time and time again with one good wing.
We've never heard that cat say he coudn't do something because of his injury.

3. Burt was tired of TRYING to lead way before the Lizzie thing went down. That was just the straw that broke the camels back. The disent had been brewing for a while. That's the only way Steven's ass could have polluted/influenced the situation.
He damn near french kissed Mike when he showed up alive.
Our boy Angel didn't do anything to help shoulder that burden. If i'm wrong, someone show me how he did please.

4. Mike didn't "Cave" in, he allowed butthead to stay busy, by changing posts. He would have caved if he had just let him not do anything. He simply rotated the posts.

Sir Rock.. thank you for the debate.. so in the words of Michael Buffer..... "Let's get it on!!"

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Rock, Rock, Rock... ok my man... where shall I start here?

1. Angel's bravery isn't an indication of anything other than him not dying in a dynamically fluid survival situation that he wasn't prepared to face. Skittles is the one who saved them. Skittles is the one who threw the molotov when Angel couldn't. Skittles fixed the car.
Kalani came up with the actual strategy on how to kill the Behemoth. Angel did what he had to do to survive the situation as it changed around him... barely. There was no leaderhip displayed in those episodes. Kalani didn't defer to him one time.

Here's the crux of leadership: People look to leaders for motivation. If anyone can give me ONE example of anyone looking to Angel or deferring to Angel. I'll STFU about his leadership skills.. er, lack thereof. LOL


2. I didn't say he wasn't really hurt. Here's the point i'm making. In the military, one of the first things you learn is to suck ish up! If you're injured, you acknowledge it, but keep moving. You never let being hurt become an excuse. He was in good enough shape to be wandering around to find out what happened. Mike has a broken arm. One that was wasn't even set. That's a real injury..not just "hurt" and he manned up time and time again with one good wing.
We've never heard that cat say he coudn't do something because of his injury.

3. Burt was tired of TRYING to lead way before the Lizzie thing went down. That was just the straw that broke the camels back. The disent had been brewing for a while. That's the only way Steven's ass could have polluted/influenced the situation.
He damn near french kissed Mike when he showed up alive.
Our boy Angel didn't do anything to help shoulder that burden. If i'm wrong, someone show me how he did please.

4. Mike didn't "Cave" in, he allowed butthead to stay busy, by changing posts. He would have caved if he had just let him not do anything. He simply rotated the posts.

Sir Rock.. thank you for the debate.. so in the words of Michael Buffer..... "Let's get it on!!"

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Aahh No!!! More valid points!!! Nooooo! LOL At least we can agree that Steven is a butthead.

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Originally Posted by cupcakezombie

The reason he has the position he has is because he has the military training. People in high ranking military positions always get judged by civilians, but if as you say he is making the right decisions from a military position then it shouldn't change the decisions that he makes or will have to make. There could come a time where his type of choices become critical to the survival of the tower.

In regards to leaving Hope without saying anything to her, would saying Hope stay here have made any difference? Then on the flip side, taking Hope with him could potentially have been more dangerous. Someone breaking in to get guns is not where you should take a blind girl. We still don't actually know what has happened down at the armory, there could be all hell breaking loose, and Hope staying in the guard room, even with a prisoner is safer. In fact that is probably the first place people will go when they come to check out the alarm.

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And you'll note that when military personnel make decisions that outrage the public, they don't stay military personnel for much longer after that. They usually get buckled under the pressure of popular opinion and resign. So as the sophists go, so does public opinion. Doesn't matter if its right or wrong, it's all perception.

Again, if he just had that inkling of protect the child by making her hide, this topic stays buried 3 pages deep and someone else resurrects it. He left a 14 year old blind girl out in the open. I never said he should say stay here. I said he should tell the girl who is defenseless to hide.

I fail to understand how this is such a hard concept for people to latch on to. Leaving 14 year old blind girl left with a man you don't trust is not the way to protect a child, and it's really kinda odd that I have had to repeat that as a mantra over the last 12 hours. There's no defense for not even thinking about Hope's safety before you leave that room. Sorry. You'll never get me to budge on this issue.

And can I just mention how much this seems like the night time/day time shift? Crowbar and RD will cover the mornings and early afternoons, while Ra1th and I will handle afternoons to third shifts?

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

1. Angel/Kalani/Behemoth episode. Skittles pulled the trigger on the molotov while the two of them were doing their "Who's on First" bit. Kalani came up with the actual strategy. Angel came up with the idea only. Kalani killed the beast.

2. He didn't put his foot down when Lizzy was ejected. He played up the whole i'm hurt, I was tired thing. Man the Puk up! He had enough energy to come downstairs and inquire..... and, wasn't he TOLD by Burt to go back upstairs anyway??

3. The tower was in disarray in multiple areas. It wasn't clean anymore and Burt was having leadership style issues
Angel SHOULD have been Burt's "Grant" (as in Gen Grant). He let Burt flop around like a hooked Catfish on hot Mississippi asphalt.
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ok i dont have time to answer all of these because there's too many posts to respond to but heres one thing, Angel did not support Burt's leadership. Angel wasn't teh second in command during that time. Angel was Michael's grant, not burt's. Burt's grant was pretty much Kalani. Burt used Angel fro tactics, and missions, thats a bout it.
shit

as for putting his foot down when lizzy was ejected, yeah he shouldnt have been asleep, but shit cut him some slack he just went through a building got cut up to hell and killed a behemoth. So in short, yes there are some kinks to work out, every character has these, no one is perfect, if they were all perfect they'd have no depth etc etc

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Originally Posted by kafu288

If he was getting some action that night that actually would be several points against him for being the world's biggest douche and just ignoring what was happening. Burt turned the leadership over to Michael because he knew that the people wanted Michael to lead again. Go back and listen to that transition again. He acknowledged that he didn't have it in him to lead and he saw the people's allegiances changing

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how is that ignoring what was happening? That was i'm gettin laid! oh shit somethings wrong! hey burt what's wrong? Burt: nothing's wrong Angel: cool, back to my lady. nothing douchey there