Chapter 22 - "Our Doubts Are Traitors" - Part 1

whooo,.... 20 pages of reading took forever! and of course the one thing the repeatedly was getting missed either Nik or Raith got to it before me! Of Course!

The alarm was tripped meaning it didn't matter who has keys or not. Pippen got the double tap and I think either Hope was shot or shot near the ears to make things harder. However there was no hesitation between all 3 shots, so whoever the shooter is they clearly don't have a problem with shooting anyone.

I really don't think the radio was shot, just because Saul and Burt couldn't get ahold of anyone doesn't mean the radio was shot, just means there's no one to pick up the other end.

I like the idea that the shooter may not be the rat but Pippen's reaction clearly shows that this person was one and the same. It wasn't a reaction of oh I just met you within the last couple of days and now you have a gun. It was whoa I remember you from somewhere else. Plus a thing that hasn't been mentioned or maybe not as clearly. Maybe the rat was told to take more action once they had the signal. This signal being someone you recognize that is expendable. Sleeper cells have shown to go about your daily business for years if need be.

I think the Victor cologne bit will bring up a plot to frame him and despite how much steven may grate on your nerves I don't think it's him. Originally I thought the rat was Kalani but this chapter shows he's clearly not. I think at this point the rat is someone not introduced yet that has been hiding in the shadows and that even the name of this chapter clearly shows that the group as we know is going to get crazy about who the rat is and point fingers towards each other. That will completely blindside and throw all sorts of wrenches into the next month's worth of theories and ideas.

The 'sniff' at the end sounds to me like something is being swung around fast.
Also, I can't hear much of a difference between the Angels feet and the other feet running at the end. But that doesn't say much cause cause the alarm is covering Angel running out.
A final thing I noticed re-listening to this is that the alarm has faded out/stopped before the last shot. If it has stopped could this mean that Angel is resetting the alarm while the shooter is still in the room, thus ruling him out?

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Originally Posted by cupcakezombie

A final thing I noticed re-listening to this is that the alarm has faded out/stopped before the last shot. If it has stopped could this mean that Angel is resetting the alarm while the shooter is still in the room, thus ruling him out?

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That makes sense. Like I said before. I can't see it being him. Why would he run out of the room and then turn around to kill Hope and Pippin? Him murdering people would have to be pretty pre-meditated and if he had planned on killing them, then wouldn't he have shot them and then left the room to go turn off the alarm?

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Didn't someone say they were going to compile the chat into a pdf or something so those that missed it could still read through the logs of the chat? I would heart me some of that since I missed it!

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I compiled it now, check out the thread here. It is edited and reordered to be easier to read. (People posting answers to previous questions, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Kc

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Originally Posted by j0be

You know what I'm pissed that I just realized? You hinted on Friday that Hope was going to die or something like that during the Cast Chat. But of course I didn't catch it then.

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Did I?

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Originally Posted by KC

[LINK]
Current Question: If you could switch characters with another on We're Alive, who would you pick?
Kc: I wanna be Tommy
Kc: ...or Hope.
Kc: A hint? :P

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Originally Posted by j0be

I compiled it now, check out the thread here. It is edited and reordered to be easier to read. (People posting answers to previous questions, etc.)

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Excellent work j0be, and a great effort by itsallgoodie.

Also I wanted to say... I get why everyone is all "it was Steven" now but I trust Kc as a writer far too much to think that he'd give us so obvious a bad guy.

Lets look at the suspects Michael, Peggs, Kelly, Riley, Victor, Hope, Tanya, Saul, Angel, Burt, Datu, Kalani & Steven

First, who knew about the silenced weapons because Burt kept them locked up Michael, Peggs, Kelly, Victor, hope, Tanya, Saul, Angel, Burt

Burt and Saul were at LAX you can't be in two places at once

Datu and Kalani had already left the tower

Angel left to go to the armoury, no one would fall for their own trap also Hope cannot fire a gun and was in the room at the time

The traitor has been with the tower for some time meaning Victor, Hope or Tanya cannot be the traitor

Assuming the traitor fired the shot at the mallers Peggs cannot be the traitor due to her being in the stairwell at the time as well as her lack of gun skills

Steven was a recently introduced character it would be a copout for him to be the traitor, also he was introduced after the initial incidents with the traitor

That leaves Michael, Riley and Kelly

My opinion is Kelly is the traitor and here is why. She knew about the silenced weapons, talked to Michael about who was on guard shift next, was in the initial interrogation with Pippin, pulled guard duty right before for six hours and listen to Pippin talk and was unaccounted for during the early stages of the war with the mallers.

Also for those who wonder why there was the last shot we all have concluded it was the radio or Hope but why?
This might be an answer for the radio question, the traitor might have shot it to keep from Burt and Saul from telling the tower the silenced pistol was missing causing the tower to find out when they come back. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by mascaria

Also I wanted to say... I get why everyone is all "it was Steven" now but I trust Kc as a writer far too much to think that he'd give us so obvious a bad guy.

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And it's that exact reason I I railed against Kalani and Kelly and chose Datu. Sadly, I chose wrong. Shoulda picked Riley or Pegs or somethin'.

@kairon: by your own logic, you have to eliminate Michael too. He was in the room when the shots were fired.

And Kelly was very quickly accounted for in the war. She was the one who was throwing furniture first (12-1 ~16:00). But you are correct: Riley and Kelly are unaccounted for during the shots heard round the world.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

And it's that exact reason I I railed against Kalani and Kelly and chose Datu. Sadly, I chose wrong. Shoulda picked Riley or Pegs or somethin'.

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I don't think it's Pegs. And I'm not just saying that because I'm in love with her. She wouldn't even touch a gun not long before, and I can't see her from going to hating guns and crying over killing an enemy to murdering innocents. It's like me going purely carnivore all of the sudden, and I'm a vegetarian. It's too big of a change I think.

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Originally Posted by Creem_Filling

I don't think it's Pegs. And I'm not just saying that because I'm in love with her. She wouldn't even touch a gun not long before, and I can't see her from going to hating guns and crying over killing an enemy to murdering innocents. It's like me going purely carnivore all of the sudden, and I'm a vegetarian. It's too big of a change I think.

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I know Pegs would be an impossible choice for the Shot Heard Round the World reason...unless there are two rats.... I'm just lamenting being wrong is all. :p I don't know who it is, and I'm going to try not to think about it too hard anymore. I feel that plot line's endgame is coming and I want to enjoy the ride :)

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Originally Posted by Leedo2502

The only recourse that the Rat (Steve!) had is inaction or take out the threat.
Inaction: Steve would eventually run into Pippin either when it came to light that Pippin poses no threat or the off chance that people stopped buying his BS excuses to get out of guard duty and thus being exposed to Pip'.

Take Out the Threat: The only option that still allows the Rat to have the initiative. If taking out Pip works then he is back in buisness, if it doesn't work then he still has the ability to leave on his own terms either way this is the only way that lets Steve carry out his original mission, Gathering intelegence and sowing discord (such as stirring the pot and getting Lizzy booted).

I still haven't noticed the "sniff" at the end of the episode but if there is one I'm thinking that maybe Steve was spritzing some cologne into the room so frame Vic and get them off of his back.
And I think the shooting of the CB Radio idea is excessive... Honestly I think that Hope was purosfully wounded and left to smell "Victor" and let Steve get away with it

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I completely agree that IF Steven was the rat/assassin that getting rid of Pippin was essential to keep his cover and could also explain why he was so reluctant to be on guard duty with Pippin in the room, as Pippin would
have probably recognized him from before. But the shooting of the CB Radio isn't too outlandish as it would create chaos in terms of communication to the Tower, something that the Mallers could take advantage of. I'm just
saying it is a possibility, we will probably know for sure in the next part whether the last shot was...

1. To Shoot the CB Radio (Which would explain why no one is answering)
2. To Shoot Hope (Which would also explain why no one is answering) (*Credit to Mr.Scott101 for making that point)
3. To make sure that Pippin was dead (Three in the head you know they're dead)

However if it was Steven, wouldn't it mean that the Mallers knew about the Tower beforehand or maybe he contacted them/stumbled onto them on the radio in lieu of the situation when the Tower was in chaos?

I think that one thing that I haven't read was that now we know there are OBVIOUSLY two traitors in the tower. One was sent to Burt's Room to create a distraction with the alarm. (Anyone in the tower would know there was a alarm on that door and setting it off would not be an accident). And the second traitor would be there to kill Pippin. Classic distraction and assassination.

Other notes.

Hope is probably not dead. Why kill someone who can't ID you?
Stephen is an obvious red herring.
Whoever killed Pippin probably tried to kill Durai. Killing off the evidence of being a traitor. (I'll make another post about this in the Theories section later.)

Has anyone suggested Michael was the who killed pippin?

he didn't trust pippin.
he knows where the silenced pistol is.
he put hope on guard duty.
he how to use the silenced pistol as he has done it before.
he made sure pippin was handcuffed
pippin was surprised to see Michael "the good guy" going to kill him.

What proves this wrong???

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Originally Posted by Michael Farris

I think that one thing that I haven't read was that now we know there are OBVIOUSLY two traitors in the tower. One was sent to Burt's Room to create a distraction with the alarm. (Anyone in the tower would know there was a alarm on that door and setting it off would not be an accident). And the second traitor would be there to kill Pippin. Classic distraction and assassination.

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It's not completely obvious, but it is looking like there is a strong possibility that there are two traitors in the tower. One person could have probably pulled if off if they were quick enough.

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Originally Posted by killerbeardhawk

Michael?

Has anyone suggested Michael was the who killed pippin?

he didn't trust pippin.
he knows where the silenced pistol is.
he put hope on guard duty.
he how to use the silenced pistol as he has done it before.
he made sure pippin was handcuffed
pippin was surprised to see Michael "the good guy" going to kill him.

What proves this wrong???

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Yes, it has been mentioned and there is some speculation regarding that it might have been done to just eliminate a potential spy threat (Pippin).

Honestly, nothing except that I don't think he has it in him. I don't know... just how the character has been represented so far through the series

EDIT: They don't even need to be quick depending on how the alarm is rigged. If it goes off on someone touching the door then they'd just have to throw something at it.

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Originally Posted by Michael Farris

I think that one thing that I haven't read was that now we know there are OBVIOUSLY two traitors in the tower. One was sent to Burt's Room to create a distraction with the alarm. (Anyone in the tower would know there was a alarm on that door and setting it off would not be an accident). And the second traitor would be there to kill Pippin. Classic distraction and assassination.

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The reason you haven't read it, is because it isn't necessarily two traitors in the towers. One person would be capable of tripping the alarm in the armory, hiding while Angel investigates the alarm, and slipping past him while Angel is doing that in order to assassinate Pippin.

I do agree with your points on Steven, the shots at Durai, and also Hope probably isn't dead. But just because she can't see doesn't mean there isn't some identifying factor she can't make a connection to. Blind, not stupid.

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Originally Posted by killerbeardhawk

Has anyone suggested Michael was the who killed pippin?

he didn't trust pippin.
he knows where the silenced pistol is.
he put hope on guard duty.
he how to use the silenced pistol as he has done it before.
he made sure pippin was handcuffed
pippin was surprised to see Michael "the good guy" going to kill him.

What proves this wrong???

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The way I read it was that Pippn recognized his killer. Since he saw Michael, I would think that he would ask to be kicked to the curb and not be locked in the room, reading books, and waiting to be killed. So whoever killed him, he never saw in the tower. Given the opportunities of Burt, Saul, etc. this leaves only Riley. I think.

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Originally Posted by killerbeardhawk

Has anyone suggested Michael was the who killed pippin?

he didn't trust pippin.
he knows where the silenced pistol is.
he put hope on guard duty.
he how to use the silenced pistol as he has done it before.
he made sure pippin was handcuffed
pippin was surprised to see Michael "the good guy" going to kill him.

What proves this wrong???

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He's the main character. And at the very beginning he was telling the story. I write stories a lot and one thing I think I can understand KC on is the attachment you feel for your main character. You want them to be the best, and often put a lot of yourself into them. so I can't see KC making him a murderer.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

The reason you haven't read it, is because it isn't necessarily two traitors in the towers. One person would be capable of tripping the alarm in the armory, hiding while Angel investigates the alarm, and slipping past him while Angel is doing that in order to assassinate Pippin.

I do agree with your points on Steven, the shots at Durai, and also Hope probably isn't dead. But just because she can't see doesn't mean there isn't some identifying factor she can't make a connection to. Blind, not stupid.

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Ok maybe it isn't obvious, but it is highly likely. There was a small period of time between the alarm and Pippin being killed. I'm no master of rooms and their location in the tower, but I would think that there would not be enough time between the alarm, killing Pippn, and leaving, all without being detected or causing suspicion. Having a two person plan makes more sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Creem_Filling

He's the main character. And at the very beginning he was telling the story. I write stories a lot and one thing I think I can understand KC on is the attachment you feel for your main character. You want them to be the best, and often put a lot of yourself into them. so I can't see KC making him a murderer.

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Michael had killed many enemies in his years: humans, zombies, and even moles.

He had killed to escape the colony and i think would kill to protect the tower.

Take no chances in a time of war.

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Originally Posted by Rafar

Don't want to get picky, but visually impaired people can't hear any better than sighted people.

Think about it, no-one thinks that deaf people get great eyesight, do they?

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Psychology BS woman to the rescue!
::strikes heroic pose::
I don't know about the deaf and eyesight thing, but when you lose a limb or a sense, your brain remaps to use the abandoned real estate. What gets that real estate is what ever is being worked on heavily.

throwing something against an alarm door from close to the room and ducking out of sight, going in and taking a couple of shots while Angel takes a look in the room to make sure no one is inside wouldn't take that long.

Its pretty easy to set up those alarms that go off if the door moves (depending on how complicated it is)

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Originally Posted by killerbeardhawk

Michael had killed many enemies in his years: humans, zombies, and even moles.

He had killed to escape the colony and i think would kill to protect the tower.

Take no chances in a time of war.

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But if it is Michael, then he gets major bad points and probably kicked out of the tower. Which it's really hard to write a story with your main character away from where the story is actually happening.

Not neccessarily. A lot of people don't want Pippen there.

Of cause Mikey didn't shoot but still

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Originally Posted by Creem_Filling

But if it is Michael, then he gets major bad points and probably kicked out of the tower. Which it's really hard to write a story with your main character away from where the story is actually happening.

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he doesn't get caught. simple.

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Originally Posted by Eviebae

Psychology BS woman to the rescue!
::strikes heroic pose::

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I know what you're saying when you say Psychology BS woman....but that's after I heard the traditional abbreviation for BS first which made me laugh ;)

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Originally Posted by Michael Farris

Ok maybe it isn't obvious, but it is highly likely. There was a small period of time between the alarm and Pippin being killed. I'm no master of rooms and their location in the tower, but I would think that there would not be enough time between the alarm, killing Pippn, and leaving, all without being detected or causing suspicion. Having a two person plan makes more sense to me.

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The key is what did Angel do when he left the guard room and how is that alarm set to go off. If the armory door is kicked in, the first thing Angel is going to do is go inside and look around and that buys the assassin the amount of time he needs to get done what needs to get done. Speculation on my part, I know. And as much as I've always said I understand how there can be two rats/traitors, I just think its better if its just one person.

Arriving home from a shit day to find a new We're Alive... Priceless!

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Originally Posted by Walrusgus

Arriving home from a shit day to find a new We're Alive... Priceless!

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I know how you feel. For twent minutes, finals don't have to exist for me.

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Originally Posted by killerbeardhawk

Michael had killed many enemies in his years: humans, zombies, and even moles.

He had killed to escape the colony and i think would kill to protect the tower.

Take no chances in a time of war.

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There's one big flaw with that.
Michael went to the Colony.

As he said when he returned to the Tower, he seen how Marcus ran the Colony and he doesn't want that.

I don't know if anyone has said this and I am sorry if I derail the flow of this thread (and I wish I had time to read all 23 pages, really) but man o man do I think Kelly is the killer/rat. Remember, Michael humiliated her the night when the power went out. She has a score to settle with the leadership, especially since it led to Tommy's death. I always found her inquisitive nature to be suspect. Do you remember when she first met Victor. She was strangely "friendly"... or was she just trying to establish trust and obtain intel regarding the Colony for the Mallers. She was strangely nice with Pippin, almost as nice as she was with Victor. Just my two cents.

Please don't flame ;)

I'm really surprised at how many people think Michael would even be a suspected. I don't think there has been any indication of him being a cold blooded killer. I can't think of any information we've been given to even suspect him and yes that would make for a big twist but it would also corrupt the "hero" of the story.

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Originally Posted by Beaumont

I'm really surprised at how many people think Michael would even be a suspected. I don't think there has been any indication of him being a cold blooded killer. I can't think of any information we've been given to even suspect him and yes that would make for a big twist but it would also corrupt the "hero" of the story.

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This.

The thing about Michael is he's the character we HAVE to connect with. In order for a story to work, you have to be able to be on a level with the main character. Especially in a story that's full of betrayals as this one. Yeah, you may be able to love other characters more than Michael, but when it comes down to it, Michael is the one that hold it all together. If he lets it all loose, well we'll all be lost with a true sense of direction.

That, and he also took Pippin in. He could, in theory, let him loose to the zombies whenever he wants. Why would any sane man ever go through the trouble of keeping him here just to cause all of this ruckus?

Well done on the episode. I was left questioning more and feeling i knew less. After i got a chance to listen last night I smiled, because I realized why everyone was blowing the forum up.

I still think it's Steven. He refused to watch Pippen because he didn't want him recognizing him. And if he is from the prison then it would be possible that breaking into the armory is one of his skill sets.

Holy cow, 24 pages of reading... wow! Ok, I don't want to speculate on who the rat is anymore. I think I've read more theories about the rat/shooter then when I read about JFK. Kidding aside, I noticed that Burt and Saul mentioned the explosion but that's all the further we got; I'm still thinking about the Mallers' plan with the gas tankers and how successful they were.
Maybe we'll find out on the next part.

Definitely a great episode, and I thought it was going to end when Burt and Saul were done, but lo and behold, it continued! and wow, that was an edge of the seat cliffhanger there!

Okay, here's a possibility. What if the shooter wasn't intending to go in and shoot Pippen - what if they didn't even know he was there? Perhaps they thought someone else was going to be there (possibly Steven) or maybe they were going for Hope (although this seems unlikely). Perhaps this person was the rat, saw Pippen, recognised him and had to shoot him in case he let the cat out of the bag.

Another theory would be that the mallers had second thoughts about sending Pippen undercover, and had the rat eliminate him...

I have a feeling that Riley fits into this somehow. I remember when angel saw her on the roof drunk upset about lizzy. I think her priorities may have shifted away from her own safety/survival to more of a "protect the group" way of thinking. Pipin was an unstablising and unknown quantity. A possible mole sent by mallers. The tower knows that lizzy was probably taken by mallers. And we know from the arena battle that she can be deadly with her bow. Why not a pistol? I think she could be a wild card heading into this seasons finale.

I am sooooooooooo glad that I don't have to listen to Pippin any more!

This is just a guess but, the silenced pistol was being kept at the armory/Burt's room right?
So, theories about the perp having an accomplice don't fit the scenario. Whoever set off the alarm and got the gun made it to Pippin and carried out his or her task.
If they already had a gun then I'd like to add that there are multiple ways to set off an alarm without being present. Some are mechanical and invoke images if Macgyver. But, a very simple way is to just cut the wire leading to the door. The wire can be cut anywhere on it's way to the sensor and it would likely set the alarm off.
... But who knows. It's got me wondering. Great suspense guys. Keep it up.

Clarkie, I really like your thought of the rat not intending to shoot but did upon recognition, however no words were exchanged and the alarm was triggered so it was premeditated. I know this from my younger days and not exactly hanging out with the good crowd.

I do not think micheal did this at all, for all th reasons stated previously, he's the main character and narrator, story would go completely south for everyone's attachement to it.

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Originally Posted by mem

Well done on the episode. I was left questioning more and feeling i knew less. After i got a chance to listen last night I smiled, because I realized why everyone was blowing the forum up.

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Soooooo...Ya....wanna clue us in on watcha thinkin' aboot?