Chapter 25- Inadequate Strength part 2

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I can see the burt beta qualities, and also in new mopey-michael. But remember when michael first relinquished control he was mad that he lost whatever he had going and he was done there. That screams alpha personality to me.

But you are right in saying neither is a true alpha. Michael is far closer.

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I think the bar for "alpha" is being set insanely high here. Why is it so hard to take Burt and Michael as alphas?

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Originally Posted by Pikepaw

I'll weigh in on the alpha dog issue a little bit. Saul and Victor are not alphas, they are doers. Neither one is a leader, they are the guys that get stuff done. Gunhands, action guys, whatever you want to call it. That I think is one of the reasons they are so frustrated. These are not the guys who have big picture plan or strategy. In the moment tactics, they can create and adapt to but they don't have much forethought. Saul's recklessness is because he doesn't think things through, he just goes to the next step because it is all he can see. Victor is used to be a loyal hound, following orders. They are both stubborn and think for themselves, because being considered a mindless follower is what these guys hate most.

Michael is pretty close to an alpha once he establishes himself. In Chapter 2, Pegs and Riley begin to look to Michael as the leader right away without being told who is in charge. He needs to correct them that Angel is the officer. Once Michael returns from the colony everyone naturally looks to him as the leader. The second that Michael hears about Lizzie being kicked out, he falls back into leader mode very naturally. But Michael does have weaknesses and confidence issues, keeping him from being a perfect alpha. However it does make him a complex and interesting character.

Burt falls in strange place in between doer and leader. He would be happy to be a doer, but when he thinks he has a better idea he will voice it. Unfortunately this happens at every meeting. I think Burt's problem, which he states is that he is used to military leadership. Marines he can lead, but this is a group of civilians and they function different. It is VERY different to lead those two mindsets of people. Also Burt had to lead back in Vietnam, so he may be a little rusty. Plus his long funk after Shirley's death hasn't done much for Burt's people skills. He tells Saul that he essentially sat around watching movies for months. I don't think leadership abilities, and people skills came back as easily as sharpshooting

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Also, Another reason that Michael was seen as the "Leader" early on is because at the time, Angel was not an Alpha. He was more a "Maybe there's another way." Now he's a "Maybe we should just kill them?" But he's still not an Alpha. If you say Saul and that are Beta's then Angel is Beta and a half.

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

I think the bar for "alpha" is being set insanely high here. Why is it so hard to take Burt and Michael as alphas?

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I agree. Michael is definitely an Alpha by the way of his personality and expertise, same as Burt. But the traits in their personalities that make them Alphas are different, Michael has charisma while burt's just intimidating. The rest would follow either one, 'cause they are the big guys, top dogs, bosses etc.7

Now, back to the actual topic. I liked this episode a lot, it had a lot more going for it than the first episode, which was kind of lackluster in my opinion. I always felt that KC wouldn't let them arrive at Fort Irwin, because that'd give the group access to an insane amount of resources.

Unless something exciting would happen (and knowing KC...), like:
1) The military is still in control of Fort Irwin and presses Michael into service. The rest are allowed to stay on the base, but their movements are restricted. The military's not going to mount a rescue op for a few unimportant civvies and the group will have to plan an escape. Maybe they'll bring along Angel's second cousin (since family reunions seem to be a theme in WA).
2) The military is still in control of Fort Irwin, but has gone renegade (think 28 Days Later). They imprison the group, have evil plans for them and possibly have an alliancce with either Durai or the Colony. The whole shebang is orchestrated by Angel's evil twin brother!
3) The fort is overrun by zombies and the group has to decide wether to risk it or leave. They decide to risk it because of the vast opportunities if they win and in the ensuing liberation of the base, something goes off and there's a huge explosion, destroying most of the heavy armamament. Still, there's a lot intact and the group starts to plan the rescue of their friends in the city. Also, Angel's clone is somehow involved

First of all, Michael is obviously alpha male HUMAN, in for example a wolf pack, the alpha male is the biggest baddest male, with humans its not quite like that. The fact that Michael became leader without even realising at first (if you remember the scene from early in the show where Angel has to point this out to him) makes him more of an alpha male than Marcus who couldn't inspire confidemnce in his men and so had to Bull shit his way to the top.
Any way, as Luna said back to the topic.
"Chapter 25 Inadequate Length" as I like to call it is really starting to grow on it. After the massive events of season two's finale its nice to take a breath and make time for some serious charecter development thats NOT just killing them off. The Saul and Vic partnership is a nice little combo although they both seem to bring out a tendency to whine in each other.

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Originally Posted by Luna Guardian

I agree. Michael is definitely an Alpha by the way of his personality and expertise, same as Burt. But the traits in their personalities that make them Alphas are different, Michael has charisma while burt's just intimidating. The rest would follow either one, 'cause they are the big guys, top dogs, bosses etc.7

Now, back to the actual topic. I liked this episode a lot, it had a lot more going for it than the first episode, which was kind of lackluster in my opinion. I always felt that KC wouldn't let them arrive at Fort Irwin, because that'd give the group access to an insane amount of resources.

Unless something exciting would happen (and knowing KC...), like:
1) The military is still in control of Fort Irwin and presses Michael into service. The rest are allowed to stay on the base, but their movements are restricted. The military's not going to mount a rescue op for a few unimportant civvies and the group will have to plan an escape. Maybe they'll bring along Angel's second cousin (since family reunions seem to be a theme in WA).
2) The military is still in control of Fort Irwin, but has gone renegade (think 28 Days Later). They imprison the group, have evil plans for them and possibly have an alliancce with either Durai or the Colony. The whole shebang is orchestrated by Angel's evil twin brother!
3) The fort is overrun by zombies and the group has to decide wether to risk it or leave. They decide to risk it because of the vast opportunities if they win and in the ensuing liberation of the base, something goes off and there's a huge explosion, destroying most of the heavy armamament. Still, there's a lot intact and the group starts to plan the rescue of their friends in the city. Also, Angel's clone is somehow involved

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Ok minus the Angel parts which I'm awarding you the tinfoil hat for the rest of the post was quite logical and all valid points that could happen. Nicely done and I smacked you with the rep wand for it.

Didnt Burt decide he didnt like leading? still an Alpha but the Alpha doesnt always say "Here everyone let's organize, classify and analyze." Burt is more of a "hey look something undead" POW Move on.

I wasnt getting the Michael bummed and sad vibe for a bit and it was annoying me. Suddenly i realized that everyting heaped on his shoulders had finally gotten to him after all this time. It was then that i remembered that the writer of this Podcast is a genius and quit questioning what was going on.

Coyotes are typically trying to kill the roadrunner or placing an order with the ACME corporation for new gear to use in killing the aforementioned road runner. Beep Beep

I'm curious as to why Michael is developing stronger bonds with his comrades in the Z-War as apposed to those soldiers he fought along side with in the service, his words not my interpretation. Is it because when he served they followed strict military guidelines whereas here he can spend 24-7 with these people, share in their drama, laughter, and sorrow?

Anyone with military service want to chime in and provide some insight as to how Michael's time spent with the Tower members could differ from that of his time spent with his soldiers in such a way that he'd form closer bonds with these people?

[edit/after thought]
I also had a funny moment when listening to 25-2 again when Michael is saying that no one could have survived. I picture him looking off to the West with teary eyes, meanwhile Saul is back in L.A. saying to Victor "They're not coming back" looking to the East with teary eyes. Then do a split screen of Michael and Saul, both teary eyed... lol, I love it.

yeah it's a really strange thing, soldiers often comment about the feeling of commraderie they feel in the service being deeper than what they feel with their siblings and whatnot. it might have something to do with him being in military intelligence as opposed to combat arms, since those in combat arms seem to feel it strongest. there is something about relying on someone else to watch your back to keep you from dying that forms this bond. the difference here might be in the amount of action he's seeing with these people. similar things were seen during world war II, soldiers that went through D-Day had a certain bond that the replacements lacked. even soldiers that went through D-Day and were then injured later and missed some other significant event found that they were "out of the loop" so to speak.

Interesting points to ponder:

-Riley was writing in her journal. She asked for the day's date. Perhaps a letter of apology for ditching, her feelings, ...a suicide note? (the last is not likely imo)
-Riley knew that the corn and grain were rotting. Did she check the farm on her own?
-Should we have caught the fact that Riley wasn't really going for a smoke? Last I recall she gave them up when Lizzie was booted from the building (Riley was out having a smoke at the time and swore them off afterwards).

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Originally Posted by Adventureless_Hero

Interesting points to ponder:
-Should we have caught the fact that Riley wasn't really going for a smoke? Last I recall she gave them up when Lizzie was booted from the building (Riley was out having a smoke at the time and swore them off afterwards).

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We must remember, that as in real life it is days and days of mundane punctuated with really important things that shape the future.

Chopper 1 is secured by Burt and Saul
Riley tells Angel she is not smoking and storms off.
a few hours later Pippin is shot.
Kalani and datu on their way to Chopper 1.
A few hours later, Saul runs away, they secure Chopper 2
Very soon after Saul comes back
They form the Free Lizzy assault squad
Tower 2 gets hit.
They return to Tower, fly away and land.

Although it has been months and months for us, Season 2 only covers about a week with a lot of it in a 48 hour span.