Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower?

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Precious Michael is not the only one who has field experience anymore, angel has been on more field ops than anyone in the tower. He also knows combat and can deal with zombies just as well as Michael can. Angel WAS a butter bar lt. that’s not the case anymore, in the time Michael was a cripple and saul was half dead, angel was the only soldier running missions, during this time he carried the weight of the other two on his own, that puts you above a butter bar, a butter bar is a term for an inexperienced inept officer who hasn’t seen combat right? well angel has been knee deep in the shit for the last month, how is he still a butter bar?

Right now, Angel cannot lead because he lacks the charisma to keep the people of the tower in line. Once he gains that charisma he has the skill and the experience to lead in any damn environment.

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I never said inept and I take offense to that. Angel is one of my favorites. We are talking about a specific time frame. NOT anything after Ra1th.. At the time of the argument he was a butter bar with Zero combat/field experience and anything like that gets you killed in the field.

ok for the lock problem, let's say time wasnt an issue and that angel made it downstairs with the key, he and michael need to UNLOCK the door anyway to let todd and lizzy in, they would have had to face the zombies and let them into the lobby no matter what if they were to rescue lizzy/todd. had angel made it down with the key, one of them would have stood at the stairway door and guarded it, while the ohter opened the front door for the lizzy/todd.

so the lock was going to have come off no matter what, so the front door isnt the issue the lack of a guard at the stairway door is.

and you can't say angel's goal was to leave lizzy and todd to die because he ran upstairs to get the key, his problem is that michael didnt wait for a second person to keep guard at the stairway door as a backup in case michael never made it back from the front door

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

ok for the lock problem, let's say time wasnt an issue and that angel made it downstairs with the key, he and michael need to UNLOCK the door anyway to let todd and lizzy in, they would have had to face the zombies and let them into the lobby no matter what if they were to rescue lizzy/todd. had angel made it down with the key, one of them would have stood at the stairway door and guarded it, while the ohter opened the front door for the lizzy/todd.

so the lock was going to have come off no matter what, so the front door isnt the issue the lack of a guard at the stairway door is.

and you can't say angel's goal was to leave lizzy and todd to die because he ran upstairs to get the key, his problem is that michael didnt wait for a second person to keep guard at the stairway door as a backup in case michael never made it back from the front door

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That is a HUGE what if friend.. as going for the keys.. Todd and Lizzie would be dead before the door opened. I won't say it was his goal.. it wasn't. But in combat someone who is trained to see the "big picture" which Angel was and Michael did give him credit for.. sometimes you have to have collateral damage .. death to save lives.
There was no time for the key.. none at all. It was now or never and they still lost Todd.

Yarri is right on this one...I hate to say it but ive been put in that very situation many times...and it blows...everyone has their own way of leading. I Myself tend to risk the entire group to save the one....Ill call it like it is Im an Ole snake eater and I truly down to the very fiber of my core believe that either all of us go home or none of us to...they only way I will allow someone to die willingly is if THEY choose to stay behind to slow up the enemy....

I myself am MORE than willing to risk my life for EVERY single one of my men....

~M~

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

so the lock was going to have come off no matter what, so the front door isnt the issue the lack of a guard at the stairway door is.

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The lock was going to have to come off, but the lock wasn't going to have to be destroyed. The issue is that Michael destroyed the lock. Listen to what Angel says before the quote you're sticking to about the stairwell door:
Angel: They're inside?!
Michael: It's too late
Angel: What the fuck happened?
Michael I had to shoot the lock.
Angel: You what?!

It's all about destroying their safeguard at the front door.

And after that is the real key line from Angel: "You jeopardized everyone's life by letting them in" That's the focus. Not the stairwell door. The stairwell door was an example of how things could have gone wrong if Michael hadn't acted quick enough to the situation he created. Angel was presenting a hypothetical to Michael by talking about the stairway door.

Fin you win on the stupid door, it was trivial anyway

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I promised you I wasn't going to go at you blow by blow this time, and I'm keeping that promise. So I'm just gonna cherry pick instead of going after all your points.

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Light argument my ass voodoo, look what this has spiraled into

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Just ignore the fact that we're talking about Angel for the moment. Soldier A has the respect of a small group of civilians and has been acting as a leader despite having Officer B there too. In the eyes of everyone there (except Officer B), Solider A is in charge, not Officer B. Leadership is determined by actions and those who follow those actions. And in this case Solider A (though not expressly told he's in charge or having some large ceremony saying he's in charge) is in charge. Ok, back to the story.

With the breakdown of society, so too go the titles associated with the old guard. Angel may have once been the defacto leader by title at the start of the story, but he was not the leader in practice by the time of Lizzy's admission into the Tower. Michael was because everyone around him made him the leader by their actions. .

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I can’t argue with you there, if this had happened in the army, Angel’s leadership is backed up by rank, Michael would be court marshaled for mutiny and disobeying orders. But its not, these guys are their own government, and the leader of the group is bound by no laws, and by no one other than the people.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

And this is again getting down to the crux of the argument between you and the Angel fans, and the others on this board: Angel is not perceived as the leader. It wasn't his decision to make. And might I point out, Angel was all about letting both Todd and Lizzy and would have if he had the key on him at the time. One could argue that Angel reacts the way he does on Michael out of guilt. One could indeed argue that.....but I'm just baiting you because I don't actually believe that.

So I suppose that's my question to you: At the moment Lizzy arrived at the Tower who was the perceived leader of the Tower group? Not who claimed leadership, who was the true leader? That will get to the heart of this particular argument we're having today.

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Michael was the leader at that time, Michael had been leader since him and saul broke into the base and got the weapons. I don’t even remember what we were debating before this so your going to have remind me

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

no he's not, as a matter of fact, when angel first started, he was really incapable in the field, he couldnt do anything, despite his officer training, but he's grown past that now, he's one of the best men to send into the field, no matter what his mission might be, Angel will always succeed. (Thats right haters, come get some, Angel has never failed a single mission he's been on). So now he has the street smarts, and the officer training, what he needs now is charisma and the fire to want to lead.

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ehhehe! This just gets, better and better!
Hey Ra1th! Angels still throws like a girl!

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Originally Posted by Ra1th

Precious Michael is not the only one who has field experience anymore, angel has been on more field ops than anyone in the tower. He also knows combat and can deal with zombies just as well as Michael can. Angel WAS a butter bar lt. that’s not the case anymore, in the time Michael was a cripple and saul was half dead, angel was the only soldier running missions, during this time he carried the weight of the other two on his own, that puts you above a butter bar, a butter bar is a term for an inexperienced inept officer who hasn’t seen combat right? well angel has been knee deep in the shit for the last month, how is he still a butter bar?

Right now, Angel cannot lead because he lacks the charisma to keep the people of the tower in line. Once he gains that charisma he has the skill and the experience to lead in any damn environment.

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Charisma is a leadership trait. You have it or you don't. it's not a learned trait. If it was, then everyone would or could be a leader. That's the difference between "Leaders" and "Managers." That's why the Magic Johnsons and Michael Jordans only come along once in a lifetime. The Pattons and Churchills and the Mandela's of the world. There isn't anything wrong with being a manager. Many corporations are led by managers. The big difference is that you can't manage people into war. They have to be led.

I almost missed the "Butter Bar" question. Sorry. It's simply a term for a Lt who's just entering the military (2nd Lt). The color of their bars are sort of a soft gold. So we call them Butterbars. An O6 is a Col. We call them "Full Birds" and Lt Col's are sometimes called "Light Colonel" as in he/she "ain't there yet"
Yes, it is also a term for wet behind the ears.
I was asking KC about his "rank" only. It gives me a glimpse at his post outbreak experience and age. (Kids right out the academy are all college KIDS) They do their 4 years and are turned loose in the various branches. I could have asked if he was a 2nd Lt, but i'm an NCO and (Lt's 1st or 2nd) drive us crazy... period.

"like Lincoln, the best, most decisive lears are those who have a set purpose and the self-confidence to accomplish that objective. But effective visions and noble goals can be made worthless without solid decision-making leadership....Sometimes he is wrong and sometimes he chooses to compromise.." Lincoln on Leadership

Make a decision, act on that decision. if it's wrong, then it's wrong.. just MAKE a decision.

That's it for me.. signing off and out!

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Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel

Charisma is a leadership trait. You have it or you don't. it's not a learned trait. If it was, then everyone would or could be a leader. That's the difference between "Leaders" and "Managers." That's why the Magic Johnsons and Michael Jordans only come along once in a lifetime. The Pattons and Churchills and the Mandela's of the world. There isn't anything wrong with being a manager. Many corporations are led by managers. The big difference is that you can't manage people into war. They have to be led.

I almost missed the "Butter Bar" question. Sorry. It's simply a term for a Lt who's just entering the military (2nd Lt). The color of their bars are sort of a soft gold. So we call them Butterbars. An O6 is a Col. We call them "Full Birds" and Lt Col's are sometimes called "Light Colonel" as in he/she "ain't there yet"
Yes, it is also a term for wet behind the ears.
I was asking KC about his "rank" only. It gives me a glimpse at his post outbreak experience and age. (Kids right out the academy are all college KIDS) They do their 4 years and are turned loose in the various branches. I could have asked if he was a 2nd Lt, but i'm an NCO and (Lt's 1st or 2nd) drive us crazy... period.

"like Lincoln, the best, most decisive lears are those who have a set purpose and the self-confidence to accomplish that objective. But effective visions and noble goals can be made worthless without solid decision-making leadership....Sometimes he is wrong and sometimes he chooses to compromise.." Lincoln on Leadership

Make a decision, act on that decision. if it's wrong, then it's wrong.. just MAKE a decision.

That's it for me.. signing off and out!

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i'd fight back, buuut, 6 or 7 pages from now, its all gonna end in a stand off anyway so might as well save the trouble.

so what do you mean by full bird? where'd that one come from?

I think this is an interesting insight dealing somewhat closely to a lot of the things we're talking about here from a very experienced real life leader. Retired General Stanley McChrystal

http://www.ted.com/talks/stanley_mcchrystal.html