Chapter 43-3: The Darkness Ahead

Hi.

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Originally Posted by Jannit

While the pheromone idea seems reasonable-ish we’ve gotten confirmation that it doesn’t work already, haven’t we? I thought the list where Datu found the address was a photocopy of the original. Regardless, the markings from the prison weren’t originals so the idea of a scent of some sort doesn’t work.

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Yeah, this detail has slipped my mind. Thank you for pointing me towards it. Certainly - while looking at photocpies there is no chance that a certain scent my play into it as well; so in that regard my thoughts are proven to be wrong (to a certain degree though, see below). I am sorry.

And yet I add two buts:

But no 1: R2Da2's reactions to the symbols on copies or the "natural" ones are evident. Seeing and "understanding" them may (not necessarily will) indicate that the zombie-agent changes the way the brain functions and thus makes the brain operate based on some weird way of "hardwiring" just like different insects react to certain conditions in the environment.
But no 2: While R2Da2 reacts to the pictures on the photocopy with a serious, short-lived headache, he is totally out of a control for a short period of time when he faces a sign at the church. Why is that so? Because his zombification-process has advanced even further, or because other factors besides the optical impression have to be considered as well (aka smell, scent, hormons, gases), or maybe both?

Anyway: This is very interesting. So I would like to approach it much broader:

- When the zombocalypse kicked in, Ink was in the police van. And he was already covered in those tattoos. Zombies attacked his van. And back then we wondered why they stopped attacking the van and/or Ink. Probably because they "understood" the symbols on Ink's head? With the latest "news" this assumption has certainly become more certain.

- We also know right from the start of the zombocalypse that them zombos behave much more based on instinct than on conscious decisions. But we know that consciously made decisions and performed actions play into their behaviour as well. Regardless of that they react to human pheromons almost automatically (instinct). While hunting they apply all natural actions - attacking in numbers, in small numbers or as solitair creatures most of them (except for the Behemoths) use the surrounding or environment like beasts of prey do - so certainly a combination of conscious understanding, working with the environment AND instinct (remember the first encounters between zombies and Saul and Angel? It was not only mindless attacks already back then!).

- Also we know that Ink's army-zombies follow orders - they have created ambushs, captured victims, left alone solitairy easy prey, orchestrated attacks etc.

- Considering the huge amount of potential zombies in the area of LA alone it is kind of astonishing how few zombies there were right from the beginning.

- We must not forget: Not every zombie from the beginning was part of Ink's army; this is especially true for the zombie-hotspots in other areas, the many Little Ones from Boulder and Irwin, Hawaii, the sea, and quite certainly many of the early waves at the Colony. (Arguable, though, if we consider Ink being the one who started it all ...)

- Finally we know from R2Da2 that "understanding" or "reading" the symbols used by Ink does not require any learning to do so while being a zombie.

So the question would be: How or why do the zombies (only from Ink's army?) "understand" these things?

Theory a) The zombie-agent activates core information in the long-term-memory of the zombies - like esoteric or religious information/ symbols -, which the humans learned or at least glimpsed at over the years before the zombocalypse; such information focusses a lot more on emotions or emotional reactions instead of analytical thinking. With the zombie-agent this information along with the emotional concepts behind them has started to surface in dominant areas of the mind, which would make the zombies follow "orders" or "these symbols" much easier; this could also mean that probably many zombies were killed by Ink's zombies, because they were not able of understanding these symbols properly. R2Da2 points in that direction, because R2Da2 is the only one from the group of survivors about whom we know that he is a religious man and who therefore has put a lot of effort into understanding certain religious symbols - but I am aware that this is the first case we have making it hard to verify this theory; also the behemoths in the prison seem to add some problems to this way of looking at it.

Theory b) The zombie-agent modifies certain parts of the memory- or understanding-centers in the human brain in a way that the zombos' brains react automatically, kind of "more instinctive" to pre-programmed symbols or arrangements of sign-elements (lines, dots, waves, circles, squares ...) just like insects react to certain smells, light-patterns, temperatures, etc. - I know: there is little evidence (if any) available to support such an idea.

And yet both theories are kind of "scientific" approaches. And I could imagine that any of them, maybe even both, could be the theme behind all things WA-zombos ... Or something else. Thinking of it in these ways simply reveals that you can try a more or less "scientific" thinking towards these unexpected turns of events without considering fancy magic or some abra kadabra hokuspokus or shit regarding the understanding or reading of symbols ... I certainly am curious what it will be in the end, if we receive any explanations at all ...

Best wishes!
Liam

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Originally Posted by 7oddisdead

ok, why lie about what I said? I said nothing about kc's feelings or being less critical...Im ok with being the outcast on this subject, and im done with defending my position. but if your going to "poke fun" at me, or use me as a method for delivering your own personal agenda...get the facts right

and enough with the milkman thing. really starting to piss me off...

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I think he was commenting about my comment. And yes. Let's nix the "milkman" stuff.

Liam, could the "understanding" or "reading" the symbols be like a color blindness thing? When you are color blind you can't see certain color but what if it the opposite and you can see colors that other cant. It can heighten sense. For all you know the virus was suppose improve human life.

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Originally Posted by UndeadSweeper

Liam, could the "understanding" or "reading" the symbols be like a color blindness thing? When you are color blind you can't see certain color but what if it the opposite and you can see colors that other cant. It can heighten sense. For all you know the virus was suppose improve human life.

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Very good point - especially if you consider the changed/-ing eyes of the zombs. I like that!

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Originally Posted by Kc

I love reading these comments. Tonight, especially has been interesting, and being able to sit and interact with you all face to face. I feel that today has pulled the curtain back and I'm more exposed to you all. It's also unique timing because I believe this is one of the few times we've had what fans call story red flags. And, I think maybe people may be reacting differently because the series is ending soon and they doubt how much can be wrapped up in such a short amount of time.

That being said, perhaps at this time I should limit my exposure. (And btw, I know Lit was joking with his comment above, but quite the opposite! Happily married, love my job, my show, but also very critical of my work and force a very self-grueling work ethic). In the future, at least until the end, I'll refrain a bit more from interacting within the threads. I'll still jump in here or there, but perhaps I'm a little too hands on right now. The other comment before was right, I do read and react to the people on the forum, and there have been small influences; things I've included to clarify something or maybe in other ways I don't recognize. So, I won't be gone or anything, just a little less of a guide. I'll let the story elements unfold, and let people react how they want. I like constructive criticism, and maybe this will be more freeing, not having a looming feeling that something might effect me.

Who knows, maybe I won't really have fewer posts... but the sentiment is to let people theorize without me getting in the way :)

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NOOOOOOOOOO KC just keep being and doing what you do. This is why we love the story too because of your interaction with the fanatics aka us. That's we we were all LOST and BSG fans. Don't stop partaking in the fun :)

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Originally Posted by Elisa

NOOOOOOOOOO KC just keep being and doing what you do. This is why we love the story too because of your interaction with the fanatics aka us. That's we we were all LOST and BSG fans. Don't stop partaking in the fun :)

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I agree. THE KC MUST REMAIN AND ALL HEADS SHALL BE BOWED IN DEFERENCE WHEN WORDS ARE SPOKEN BY THE KC.

Alright...so....I was wrong. By Datu's consistent pain at viewing and understanding of a 'command' not 'translation' I was off on the theory that it was phillipino tribal stuff. Whoops. Let's see, where to start? I've been out of the foil hat game for a few months (and theorizing in general) so let me dust off the hat and give it a shot again.

A lot of popular things in the thread, just want to say I second them. Scratch probably got into the Colony and heard the cry for help from Tanya, that can't be good. I mean, Burt keeps laying his fears about giving locations away over radio, even if its secured, doesnt that plant the seed of doubt for us in the landline? And a perfect point for Burt to bust in, in a few episodes to save them with Riley and blast Scratch away with a hilarious 'told you so'?

To that point, hell, what's to say Ink doesn't know what's going on? He always seems to? Maybe he's watching the colony, and tails Scratch to Cain, and we have an epic battle royale? Scratch attempting to take the baby due to some crazy "I-wanna-be-a-mom" thing inside of her, as Ink busts in and is like "A HYBRID BABY! PERFECT FOR TESTING!" (Saul's immunity/elevated levels, and Lizzy's presumable normalness). All this and Burt's silently listening to the radio for something like this to go down. And to TOP IT ALL OFF, we got crazy Entwalker-Behemoth walking around all tree-barked out. It practically writes itself, no?

Or maybe Ink just shows up and tells them to give him the baby and no one else gets hurt. He goes all Rumpelstiltskin on us? (Yeah, I looked it up, that's spelled right dammit

Alright, the tunnels...Big stretches here, but we know the zeds dont like the haze...we know the haze is coming from the cracks...Maybe they banded together to dig some tunnels to re-route the haze away from where they want/need to be? Or, Ink banded these things together to reDIRECT the haze to wherever he desires. Letting him conduct tests as he sees fit. Try a few different drugs, give 'em the haze, how'd they react? Maybe Ink really is still trying to solve the 'how do we overcome this plague?', That's far-fetched, but c'mon, supreme multiple-disorder anti-hero. Part of him wants to eat us, part of him wants to save us from the outbreak! This doesnt quite explain the zeds going INTO the tunnel, since they avoid the haze, but c'mon, i'm trying here.

Now, since I was wrong about Datu having previously knowledge of this "Language", and I still maintain Kc's grounding by some science, I want to try and figure out these 'commands' via symbols. I've got two sketchy theories.

1 - The virus unlocks something in our brains, some sensory perceptions being heightened. We've seen that the zeds smell better, generally, what's to say they dont SEE better (or differently). Cats see infrared, we cannot. We all accept the rapid muscle development, why not some rods/cones development. The symbols aren't as much about what WE see (some lines/colors) but what the Zeds see, perhaps some crazy vibrant light structure existing in wavelengths outside our perception. There's light going on all around us that we can't see, what's to say these aren't written in some form that Datu can now percieve? Not sure how this links to him feeling commanded/in the backseat, but it was the first thing that came to mind when the language theory was debunked.

2 - I have to go back to listen to when Datu was attacked, but he was left alive. That seemed odd at the time, but we kind of just glossed over it when he seemed within inches of death. That means the little ones that attacked left him at least breathing, no? Well, we've heard Little Ones speak, perhaps they're capable of hypnosis, as taught by Ink. Hypnosis would explain his compulsion to follow seemingly meaningless triggers. He sees one thing STOP. He sees another COME IN. He takes a backseat in his mind and cannot stop himself. This theory lacks in the idea that ALL of the zeds would have to be hypnotized at some point, or at least Ink's army. Perhaps in the video of Ink being busted out of the van he took that moment and hypnotized the Zeds, which is why the listened? This is out there, but throw in some drugs Ink could've perfected that affect someone's susceptibiltiy to suggestion (As previously mentioned by Witch_Doctor, forgot the plant/drug, just that he mentioned it started with d-a-t-u). If he gets the virus to effect the subject suggestion, it could be some form of hypnosis. Which would be why they dont 'translate' they just 'command'. MOREOVER, Ink planned Datu's attack, and wanted him to bring Michael to the church. This was all a set up....

:tinfoil:

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Originally Posted by Hoff4D

Alright, the tunnels..

:tinfoil:

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I forgot one thing....The tunnels? I assume they're not lit-up. If the virus DOES open up some sensory perception in our eyes to more wavelengths, perhaps they see perfectly fine in the tunnels. Thus, datu will/can as well, and Michael/Victor will be going blind down there. Presents quite the problem if it's an intricate tunnel system and Datu dies sometime while they're down and Michael/Vic have to feel their way out....

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Originally Posted by Hoff4D

I forgot one thing....The tunnels? I assume they're not lit-up. If the virus DOES open up some sensory perception in our eyes to more wavelengths, perhaps they see perfectly fine in the tunnels. Thus, datu will/can as well, and Michael/Victor will be going blind down there. Presents quite the problem if it's an intricate tunnel system and Datu dies sometime while they're down and Michael/Vic have to feel their way out....

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I'm thinking Datu will use himself as a distract to allow the other two get out safely. We know that they can tell that Datu is turning and won't attack him, unless there another loose cannon number one in the mix. But I think Ink will be blindside by this, as Michael said why wouldn't he think they would know the address, all he will see is Datu following the signs left by him. We might even here a talk between the two if possible.

With Cain, I think Scratch will get the message at the colony but head there to get some leverage for a trade for Peggs. The only thing is Saul unknowingly going to call Burt and Riley for back-up to help with the operation. Burt is going to be willing to help since they care for the couple dearly. So instead of them looking for her, she will come to them.

Bet "Land of the Blind" is the next title chapter.

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Originally Posted by Verse

Bet "Land of the Blind" is the next title chapter.

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I will take that bet. I'm guessing Life and Death. ;-)

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Originally Posted by UndeadSweeper

I will take that bet. I'm guessing Life and Death. ;-)

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'Do you see what I see?'

Three Blind Mice?

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Originally Posted by Verse

Three Blind Mice?

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See how they run?

Wonder if there'll be another poll about what the next title will be....

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Originally Posted by Gooer

Wonder if there'll be another poll about what the next title will be....

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What about the title ...

Next Chapter title "Which way was the Starbucks?"

For those liking Pegs:

The Cheerful, the Vermin, and the Scratched.

For those not liking Pegs:

The Pain, the Paining, and the Pained.

Best wishes
Liam

Chapter 44: Confrontations

Michael, Datu and Victor come head to head with Ink, the Colonists come head to head with Scratch and Tardust, Saul comes head to head with the behemoth at the hospital

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Originally Posted by tonyhind86

Chapter 44: Confrontations

Michael, Datu and Victor come head to head with Ink, the Colonists come head to head with Scratch and Tardust, Saul comes head to head with the behemoth at the hospital

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Bit early for that, maybe for the finale or summit.

Chapter 44: That's just my Baby Daddy

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Originally Posted by Gooer

Bit early for that, maybe for the finale or summit.

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Nah, that'll be the musical episode :nik:

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Originally Posted by tonyhind86

Nah, that'll be the musical episode :nik:

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Bonus Chapter: Hopes and Dreams

Ok, here's one title for the (former) RPG players:

*Victor's voice*: Chapter 44 - "Hey, hm, Michael - where's did you put the automap?"

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Originally Posted by LiamKerrington

For those liking Pegs:

The Cheerful, the Vermin, and the Scratched.

For those not liking Pegs:

The Pain, the Paining, and the Pained.

Best wishes
Liam

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None may dislike THE PEGS, whose name is whispered in hushed and clipped tones among the pantheons of the living and dead.

I was really hoping that the cause of the zombies would be nanobots; they can be programmed with language, communication and can potentially rewrite DNA. Since they are tiny machines, they could even assimilate foreign matter to accommodate for the increased size and density of a behemoth or a little one, using solar power as conservation of energy.

What I'm guessing the answer will be though is something like toxoplasmosis or fungi, which have been known to alter perceptions. BUT....rewriting dna incredibly fast results in the problem of conservation of energy. Not only would it take a lot of energy to make a turned little one's skin turn rock hard in seconds, but it would create a LOT of heat as that energy is expended.

Likewise with a behemoth - where is the mass coming from? It reminds me of the Hulk - gamma radiation has enough potential energy to actually create matter, which is a kinda sorta weak science explanation. But in reality, for any of WA's zombies or monsters to exist, it would not only take a predetermined blueprint of the new DNA, but millions of calories to accomplish.

Of course, it could also be demons :p

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Originally Posted by Deacon_Tyler

None may dislike THE PEGS, whose name is whispered in hushed and clipped tones among the pantheons of the living and dead.

I was really hoping that the cause of the zombies would be nanobots; they can be programmed with language, communication and can potentially rewrite DNA. Since they are tiny machines, they could even assimilate foreign matter to accommodate for the increased size and density of a behemoth or a little one, using solar power as conservation of energy.

What I'm guessing the answer will be though is something like toxoplasmosis or fungi, which have been known to alter perceptions. BUT....rewriting dna incredibly fast results in the problem of conservation of energy. Not only would it take a lot of energy to make a turned little one's skin turn rock hard in seconds, but it would create a LOT of heat as that energy is expended.
Likewise with a behemoth - where is the mass coming from? It reminds me of the Hulk - gamma radiation has enough potential energy to actually create matter, which is a kinda sorta weak science explanation. But in reality, for any of WA's zombies or monsters to exist, it would not only take a predetermined blueprint of the new DNA, but millions of calories to accomplish.

Of course, it could also be demons :p

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Y'know, this observation is only due to Kc's reaction in the FanCast, but as much as I would have otherwise been all over this idea of yours I've got a feeling it's something else. Kc was asked about people being able to learn the "zombie language" and he really hummed and hawed over answering that one for a while. To me it implies that this is a possibility as it wasn't an outright "no" like it was with the nanobot idea. As one of our lovely hosts brought up at the beginning of the cast, maybe the humans are able to use the symbols against the zombies such as the Stop one Datu found.

Still a cool idea!

Chapter 44: Michael, Victor, and Datu are walking around in the land of the living dead, finding lotsa clues about Ink, and at one point Ink himself, WHO escapes. Meanwhile, CJ and Pegs are setting up stuff at that lake thing...
Chapter 45: More colony 2.0 stuff with Pegs and CJ. Cliffhanger will contain more Scratchness, maybe some Burtness too.
Chapter 46: Burt and Riley drive to the hospital, we go back to Michael and the pals in the tunnels, they finally find their way out, Vic dies and Michael escapes with Datu, heading to the colony.

Chapter 47: Seing that everybody's left Michael listens to Tanya's message on the phone and takes Datu to the hospital, where Scratch and Tardust are also located. Before going there though, he contacts CJ and Pegs, Pegs flies back to LA without one-legged chinese dictator. Cliffhanger: Randy shows up!
Chapter 48: Everyone's gathered at the hospital where everything will take place. People WHO will die are: Saul, Riley, Datu (Michael gives him the syringe), Scratch, and Kelly. Ink will be there too, and Randy will somehow help Michael kill him, after more freaky stuff's been revealed. At the end, Pegs flies the remaining people to the lake, and that's the END!
..........
I have no idea why I want the rest of the season to focus on this one day, but well... :)

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Originally Posted by Jannit

Y'know, this observation is only due to Kc's reaction in the FanCast, but as much as I would have otherwise been all over this idea of yours I've got a feeling it's something else. Kc was asked about people being able to learn the "zombie language" and he really hummed and hawed over answering that one for a while. To me it implies that this is a possibility as it wasn't an outright "no" like it was with the nanobot idea. As one of our lovely hosts brought up at the beginning of the cast, maybe the humans are able to use the symbols against the zombies such as the Stop one Datu found.

Still a cool idea!

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At long as it doesn't turn out to be something hokey and impossible like a protozoa, bacteria or virus, I reckon I will accept anything.

Tunnel: Micheal describes the opening as being pulled up and jetting outwards from the inside. Also, no mention of removed dirt. Maybe it wasn't dug! Something came from underground!

Lizzy undergoing surgery: Of all of the surgery that has taken place in this story, will she and/or the baby be the only one/s to to need a blood transfusion? Who's gonna donate?

Checking out Cordova: The second time in this story when the survivors are working on a water supply issue and decide to investigate where the zombies are hiding at the same time. In both instances, they don't plan to be there long. Just enough time to 'see where they are going'. Also, they find themselves surrounded and decide to hide in the worst possible, yet only available, hiding place. (The zombie hole to Hell and the pile of zombie food bodies.)

What does it feel like to turn? I always wondered what happens to the person-inside during turning. It's chilling to think about. Especially the smart ones. Are they torn or tormented? I've experienced that 'back-seat of the mind' feeling myself. (No, I wasn't on drugs.) I was on the floor on all fours, under a table, balling my eyes out over the passing of someone dear to me. Or you can try this experiment.. http://science.howstuffworks.com/sci...experience.htm


Trap, Help or Happenstance?: Micheal seems to suspect that the Randy Bottle Incident was either a trap leading them to a location where they would be attacked (or perhaps the zombies assumed the survivors figure out where to go). The only thing that doesn't line up is that they found the address to Raydon Labs AT Raydon Labs. This makes the trap idea seem less plausible. So, maybe the Raydon Labs address was the location of the shopping supplies and Cordova address is where they are to be delivered. If this is the case, then maybe it is true that Randy was helping the survivors by biting Datu. OR, maybe he's setting a bigger trap. Difficult to see, the future. Always in motion. - Yoda Jenkins Or, maybe it was just fortuitous.


Magic Writing or Superstitious Writing on the wall?: 800 years ago the Black Death was believed to have supernatural origins. It took time for the truth to be revealed. For millions, it never reveled, but it was a natural thing, regardless of how it seemed or what they believed.

Zombie Existentialists: What makes one a zombie? Being undead? Being under the spell of a puppet master? Not having control of your own will? Mice with the Toxoplasma Gondii parasite are effectually controlled by it to lose their fear of cats in order to be eaten by them. The parasite reproduces in the cat's intestines, gets pooped out and then infects other mice. Over and over again. Ophiocodyceps unilateralis does something similar to ants. It affects the ants' behavior, compelling it to perch on high leaves, which makes it a good target for birds that will eat it and continue the cycle. Not saying that the zombie agent is a parasite, nanobots or Elder Ones jism. Just that what ever it is it compels human's behavior. The symbols that control Datu, natural or artificial seems to work this way when he says that they 'mean' or 'feel like'. The only part that doesn't fall inline with this is the address. But time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor

Tunnel: Micheal describes the opening as being pulled up and jetting outwards from the inside. Also, no mention of removed dirt. Maybe it wasn't dug! Something came from underground!

Lizzy undergoing surgery: Of all of the surgery that has taken place in this story, will she and/or the baby be the only one/s to to need a blood transfusion? Who's gonna donate?

Checking out Cordova: The second time in this story when the survivors are working on a water supply issue and decide to investigate where the zombies are hiding at the same time. In both instances, they don't plan to be there long. Just enough time to 'see where they are going'. Also, they find themselves surrounded and decide to hide in the worst possible, yet only available, hiding place. (The zombie hole to Hell and the pile of zombie food bodies.)

What does it feel like to turn? I always wondered what happens to the person-inside during turning. It's chilling to think about. Especially the smart ones. Are they torn or tormented? I've experienced that 'back-seat of the mind' feeling myself. (No, I wasn't on drugs.) I was on the floor on all fours, under a table, balling my eyes out over the passing of someone dear to me. Or you can try this experiment.. http://science.howstuffworks.com/sci...experience.htm


Trap, Help or Happenstance?: Micheal seems to suspect that the Randy Bottle Incident was either a trap leading them to a location where they would be attacked (or perhaps the zombies assumed the survivors figure out where to go). The only thing that doesn't line up is that they found the address to Raydon Labs AT Raydon Labs. This makes the trap idea seem less plausible. So, maybe the Raydon Labs address was the location of the shopping supplies and Cordova address is where they are to be delivered. If this is the case, then maybe it is true that Randy was helping the survivors by biting Datu. OR, maybe he's setting a bigger trap. Difficult to see, the future. Always in motion. - Yoda Jenkins Or, maybe it was just fortuitous.


Magic Writing or Superstitious Writing on the wall?: 800 years ago the Black Death was believed to have supernatural origins. It took time for the truth to be revealed. For millions, it never reveled, but it was a natural thing, regardless of how it seemed or what they believed.

Zombie Existentialists: What makes one a zombie? Being undead? Being un the spell of a puppet master? Not having control of your own will? Mice with the Toxoplasma Gondii parasite are effectually controlled by it to lose their fear of cats in order to be eaten by them. The parasite reproduces in the cat's intestines, gets pooped out and then infects other mice. Over and over again. Ophiocodyceps unilateralis does something similar to ants. It affects the ants' behavior, compelling it to perch on high leaves, which makes it a good target for birds that will eat it and continue the cycle. Not saying that the zombie agent is a parasite, nanobots or Elder Ones jism. Just that what ever it is it compels human's behavior. The symbols that control Datu, natural or artificial seems to work this way when he says that they 'mean' or 'feel like'. The only part that doesn't fall inline with this is the address. But time will tell.

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Actually I wanted to rep you for all of this ... Awesome read ... !

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Originally Posted by Deacon_Tyler

Of course, it could also be demons :p

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Demons are no magic ... They are ... well ... demons! And since WA takes the religious turn right now, demons fit into the picture ... :D

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Originally Posted by Storm

Chapter 44: Michael, Victor, and Datu are walking around in the land of the living dead, finding lotsa clues about Ink, and at one point Ink himself, WHO escapes. Meanwhile, CJ and Pegs are setting up stuff at that lake thing...
Chapter 45: More colony 2.0 stuff with Pegs and CJ. Cliffhanger will contain more Scratchness, maybe some Burtness too.
Chapter 46: Burt and Riley drive to the hospital, we go back to Michael and the pals in the tunnels, they finally find their way out, Vic dies and Michael escapes with Datu, heading to the colony.

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I'm pretty much doubting that Datu is ever making it out of that tunnel. I think this is his one way ticket. I'm not even sure if Michael or Vic will make it out, either, and the story might finish with Mike, alone, in some underground Zed cavern, scrawling out his final words before Ink comes to the door to get him...

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Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor

Tunnel: Micheal describes the opening as being pulled up and jetting outwards from the inside. Also, no mention of removed dirt. Maybe it wasn't dug! Something came from underground!

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Even if it was a giant worm-zombie, the dirt can't just disappear. If there really are miles of Zed tunnels under LA.... I'd be real interested to know how they were constructed. The mental image of a chain-gang of Behemoth's, passing dirt buckets back and forth while singing "Whistle as you work" isn't really doing it for me. :nik:

[BTW, this draws attention to the need for an alternate Nik emoticon, who is vigorously shaking his head instead of nodding]

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Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor

Lizzy undergoing surgery: Of all of the surgery that has taken place in this story, will she and/or the baby be the only one/s to to need a blood transfusion? Who's gonna donate?

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I'm wondering if she is even going to survive the delivery. To me, this medical problem of hers came on a bit too suddenly (it seems); this would have been better justified if, in a previous scene, we heard her saying something like "I feel a bit lightheaded" or something to this effect. Don't recall anything like this, but I may be wrong...

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Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor

Magic Writing or Superstitious Writing on the wall?: 800 years ago the Black Death was believed to have supernatural origins. It took time for the truth to be revealed. For millions, it never reveled, but it was a natural thing, regardless of how it seemed or what they believed.

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Yeah, I'm not really concerned about that kind of thing. The main thing I am concerned with is this: is the story giving me enough justifiable reason to believe what is happening at this given moment? That is more or less the litmus test for me. I suppose you could base your criticism of the 'realism' of the story on research such as the engineering aspects of, say, whether or not a fire, an RPG, and a few pipe bombs could legitimately undermine the supports of a building and make it collapse, but any kind of opinion based on such extra-dramatic research is not enough to get me to deny the veracity of the story I am hearing.

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Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor

Zombie Existentialists: What makes one a zombie? Being undead? Being un the spell of a puppet master? Not having control of your own will? Mice with the Toxoplasma Gondii parasite are effectually controlled by it to lose their fear of cats in order to be eaten by them. The parasite reproduces in the cat's intestines, gets pooped out and then infects other mice. Over and over again. Ophiocodyceps unilateralis does something similar to ants. It affects the ants' behavior, compelling it to perch on high leaves, which makes it a good target for birds that will eat it and continue the cycle. Not saying that the zombie agent is a parasite, nanobots or Elder Ones jism. Just that what ever it is it compels human's behavior. The symbols that control Datu, natural or artificial seems to work this way when he says that they 'mean' or 'feel like'. The only part that doesn't fall inline with this is the address. But time will tell.

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I only still call them 'Zombies' out of convenience. We all understand we are not dealing with Romero undead here, and despite some nods to traditional zombie tropes (e.g. Michael saying that "headshots seem to drop 'em like flies"), these are creatures quite different from anything that Romero ever came up with. I usually just use the term Zed as shorthand for 'whatever these former humans have become', and leave it at that... :nik:

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Originally Posted by Jannit

Wasn't this symbol on one of the doors that were broken in? If so, it would imply that all of the other behemoths could read it and knew not to break into the room. If behemoths tend to eat people, it would be a very good test of the strength of the symbol's meaning. Food versus symbols and all that.

Now I need to go back and check too.

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This is a great point. Those behemoths were starving to death and still did not breach that door.

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Originally Posted by Grognaurd

This is a great point. Those behemoths were starving to death and still did not breach that door.

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To me the bethemoths seem to be creature that need some such motivation to attack. They either need to hear or see something to attack or destroy. If you notice the one at Cain, it was acting very docile when alone.

I think they are bright. They are war machines and have a purpose to combat something.

Water Pumping Station
Attacks Angel, Riley, Datu, Michael. When there was only Michael there was no attack. Prior, they seemed to attack people from Dunbar, but spared Randy

Arena
Attacks Angel, Kalani and Riley. Prior, seemed to attack or at least defend Dunbar Assault Team

Reserve Base / Water Tower
Attacks Angel and Kilani

Tower Collapse
Attacks Saul and Victor

Jail ( inside )
Attacks Matagun, three Denver Soldiers and Puck

Jail ( outside )
Attacks gun truck ( used to be at Dunbar with Victor and Saul ) ignores Puck and Matagun

Cain
Need more info, but did not go into attack mode. Maybe did not notice Burt, Riley and Saul or maybe did not care.

Pattern: Angel and Victor. Wild Card: Denver Soldiers and people from Dunbar

I think they are bright... Just Lazy? Not the best word. Maybe better word would be ignorant. There is no reason they should be walking around blind in the dark. They could just bum rush a wall and be free. Instead they wander around until they see something. My guess is that have "Muscle" memory for lack of a better word. They are not going "Hey. That man has a awesome steampunk gun. I should take care of that first. He is running? Ok. Let me take out that massive gun on that truck", but instinct. His subconscious pushed him to target certain things. Not like we have't seen normal/non-smart Zeds do things. That one jumped behind the desk at the begining of the series to avoid being shot.

Even though they are massive they seem to be almost unaware of their size until they go into "DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE" mode. Then they just tear shit up. Skittles said one couldn't climb to get a cat off a bus or something. It could have just ran and hit the bus to tip it. Instead it tried to climb like a normal person. When it sees people... it just throws shit around and tears through things. Betting they don't realize just how strong they are. Kinda like a large child.

My guess is that Zeds see/smell us as slightly different. Kinda why they started foaming at the mouth when the Sweat Test was done. They went nuts. Betting that lake of care is what allows them to go through walls and such.

A number of animals don't attack unless provoked or threatened in some way or another. As Grog mentions, the Behemoths could just be reacting to what they perceive as a threat. In all of those situations where they attacked, someone did something to piss them off or force their attack. Who knows, maybe they're like bees and will just go about their business unless they are bothered.

Finally got to listen to this episode (been crazy around here once again) and I managed to get through the 1st 20 pages of this thread. I have some comments on the episode but mostly on other posts since y'all have talked about so much already. Gonna try to be back later to get my main thoughts down.

I will go ahead and say that I was TOTALLY wrong on Datu reading the symbols. I had said it was some language that he already knew and that the symbols and Ink's tats weren't actually controlling /hurting/stopping the zombies. Well, I'll be having a big serving of crow for all that.....

Which reminds me - did anyone notice any crow sounds in the outdoor scenes with Michael, Victor, and Datu? I didn't but then I usually have to listen a couple of times to get those details.

Random question. Do we know is Ink is a "Zombie"? Was he bit or scratched when they attached the van? If he's not a zombie, what is he doing to survive?

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Originally Posted by Grognaurd

I think they are bright. They are war machines and have a purpose to combat something.

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Concerning the "brightness" level of behemoths, they might simply suffer from an unfavorable combination of low intelligence and poor vision, you know...



A door can be a powerful enemy.