Chapter 31 Family Ties Part 2

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Originally Posted by Osiris

You guys are all going to feel so stupid when the truth about Scratch is revealed.

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The truth being?

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Originally Posted by yarri

What you fail to remember is that weapon wasn't named for his wife it was HER gun. That piece was her favorite weapon he carried it as he would carry the last thing on earth that was hers with him it was a piece of her like an extension of her soul/body. Burt and Shirley didn't have kids, he had nothing left in the world to hold on to that reminded him of what she was and who she was other then that weapon. The finger was nothing he can over come it any good marksmen can and will over come with time a handycap like the loss of a trigger finger. But the loss of the desert eagle will be hard. Part of me is glad it happened like Osi said maybe now he'll grieve her and let her go and find something to live for in what's left of the world now.

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No, it still doesn't ring true for me, it was just too much, regardless of any emotional attachment. On re-listening it wasn't just Bill, Scratch was over he top in that small section as well. This is how it sounded to me, others may well feel it was bang on.

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Originally Posted by Adventureless_Hero

The truth being?

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That she's really not as evil as you're all hoping she is. So she smashed a gun and lopped off a finger to get the truth about where the piece of shit that killed her brother ran off to. I'd have done worse for the information, no question. Not to mention the way she's been treating a certain pregnant woman... let's all conveniently over-look the fact that she's saved her, is caring for her, and protecting her. That heartless slag.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

You guys are all going to feel so stupid when the truth about Scratch is revealed.

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I agree I hope we at least get to know her real name.

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Originally Posted by VEE

No, it still doesn't ring true for me, it was just too much, regardless of any emotional attachment. On re-listening it wasn't just Bill, Scratch was over he top in that small section as well. This is how it sounded to me, others may well feel it was bang on.

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Ghosts are like that.

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Originally Posted by VEE

No, it still doesn't ring true for me, it was just too much, regardless of any emotional attachment. On re-listening it wasn't just Bill, Scratch was over he top in that small section as well. This is how it sounded to me, others may well feel it was bang on.

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Grief does fuck up things to people. Everyone deals with grief in different ways this is how Burt dealt with his grief.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

That she's really not as evil as you're all hoping she is. So she smashed a gun and lopped off a finger to get the truth about where the piece of shit that killed her brother ran off to. I'd have done worse for the information, no question. Not to mention the way she's been treating a certain pregnant woman... let's all conveniently over-look the fact that she's saved her, is caring for her, and protecting her. That heartless slag.

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I know there is something more there. Its making me crazed I want to know more about her I was hopeful on this episode there was more to hear about her and her past. She was someone's little girl once. I want to know what happened.

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Originally Posted by VEE

No, it still doesn't ring true for me, it was just too much, regardless of any emotional attachment. On re-listening it wasn't just Bill, Scratch was over he top in that small section as well. This is how it sounded to me, others may well feel it was bang on.

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I agree, and it's what I've been saying since day one. I just can't get into her character because of how overplayed it is. Even when she is supposed to be mellow or soft spoken, it's overdone.

And the cackling in the scene....Jesus. "I'll get you my pretty, and your little dog too!"


Her voice reminds me of Kristin Wiig's character in the skit below.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-li...ersion/1400626

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Originally Posted by yarri

I know there is something more there. Its making me crazed I want to know more about her I was hopeful on this episode there was more to hear about her and her past. She was someone's little girl once. I want to know what happened.

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I hope we never do. It would destroy the picture you all seem to have of some psychopath that probably tortured small animals when she was 8. Let me tell you what she was like at that age. She had her hair in a ribbon, she skipped down sidewalks in a little yellow and pink dress, and she loved her mommy. Just like everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

I hope we never do. It would destroy the picture you all seem to have of some psychopath that probably tortured small animals when she was 8. Let me tell you what she was like at that age. She had her hair in a ribbon, she skipped down sidewalks in a little yellow and pink dress, and she loved her mommy. Just like everyone else.

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That's how I picture her as well. Not as a budding psychopath but as a little girl with sausage curls and a doll. I still want to know her name she's the most heart breaking of all the characters.

Yeah, Jenna's really done an amazing job bringing her to life.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

Yeah, Jenna's really done an amazing job bringing her to life.

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Osiris, I don't know about you but I want to just cry when I hear Scratch. I don't hear just anger in her voice I hear fear as well. Jenna is awesome she gives Scratch a soul.

I don't cry. I'm a man.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

I don't cry. I'm a man.

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I know that so I'll do it for you. LOL Scratch is heart breaking

You think Bricks and Lizzy have a relationship? At the start of 31-1 he enters the room no problem, as though she were dressing and she didn't mind if he saw her.

Also, Lizzy said it was hard to drink a lot of water when they are rationing it. Me thinks the Mallony isn't fair so well.

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Originally Posted by Adventureless_Hero

You think Bricks and Lizzy have a relationship? At the start of 31-1 he enters the room no problem, as though she were dressing and she didn't mind if he saw her.

Also, Lizzy said it was hard to drink a lot of water when they are rationing it. Me thinks the Mallony isn't fair so well.

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Brother and sister and it was discussed to death in the last chapter thread

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Originally Posted by yarri

Brother and sister and it was discussed to death in the last chapter thread

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Sorry. I was on vacation. :S

a vita usque mortem

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Originally Posted by Adventureless_Hero

Sorry. I was on vacation. :S

a vita usque mortem

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no worries :)

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Originally Posted by Adventureless_Hero

Sorry. I was on vacation. :S

a vita usque mortem

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We'll let it go this time, but don't do it again.

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Originally Posted by GeOsiris

Where? I searched the document and the word "weak" didn't even come up once.

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Sent the wrong file: http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBoo...n/act-book.pdf

It does look like the NRA guidance doesn't emphasize weak hand shooting, though they do include it in many of their approved course designs. My own experience was with NRA sanctioned courses in the 80s in Texas, and we had weak hand sequences for every course.

Burt crying over Shirley > Tom Hanks crying for Wilson

Attachment 2024

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Originally Posted by Osiris

Remember that time that Ray went on a 400 page rant, and I never read it? That shit was awesome.

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I ask the mods, why is this allowed? Why are you allowing Osiris to attack me again? I've said nothing to this person, and yet they still treat me this way. I'm coming very close to quitting this community simply because of this one forum poster. I've said nothing malicious, evil, mean, derogatory, or inflammatory to this person since I've been posting and yet I'm still attacked. I really enjoy this podcast and the discussion around its twists and turns, but I'm very unhappy that you, the mods, allow someone to do this time and again. I'm sick of this persons childish behavior, ignorant attacks, and general hostility. Why do you tolerate this person acting this way? Are you all like this person? Disagreements are fine, personal attacks and rudeness aren't ways to treat other members and this should stop immediately.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

That she's really not as evil as you're all hoping she is. So she smashed a gun and lopped off a finger to get the truth about where the piece of shit that killed her brother ran off to. I'd have done worse for the information, no question. Not to mention the way she's been treating a certain pregnant woman... let's all conveniently over-look the fact that she's saved her, is caring for her, and protecting her. That heartless slag.

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You're going to be really enthused when she uses that child to get information from Saul. Scratch isn't noble, she's a psychotic murderer and there's more than enough proof to show it. Also, how is Pegs a piece of shit? Sounds like your feelings are clouding your rational judgement. Pegs didn't want to shoot John, and only did so to protect an unconscious Michael. Scratch has shot at least one person in cold blood (the dude she blamed for having the tanker stolen), and she beat some dude pretty severely for just looking at her in a store. She's no angel, and we've heard nothing that indicates otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Cabbage Patch

Sent the wrong file: http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBoo...n/act-book.pdf

It does look like the NRA guidance doesn't emphasize weak hand shooting, though they do include it in many of their approved course designs. My own experience was with NRA sanctioned courses in the 80s in Texas, and we had weak hand sequences for every course.

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Courses, yes. Competitions, no. Your original post mentioned weak shooting as a competitive requirement which is what confused me as there are no weak shooting requirements in IDPA or NRA.

It is, however, well advised to train weak and be as ambi as possible with your preferred weapon systems.

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Originally Posted by VEE

Hmmmm. It’s a gun. So what? Perhaps it’s because I’ve never had an emotional attachment to a firearm, but I don’t get it. The level of distress from seeing an inanimate object being broken was way too far up the scale to my mind. I get that it was named after his wife, I do, I get the whole connection, but it was still an inanimate object, it was a shame, sure, but come on. I hate to come across as a detractor as I love the series, but, probably for the first time I cringed a bit at the whole scene, until the finger was cut off, prior to that it was so far over the top it was in orbit. The finger cutting scene saved it and was very well done indeed, but, for me, was spoiled by what preceded it.

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Pretty sure that was his wife's gun, not just a gun that had her name on it. It was the last thing he had to remember her by and Scratch laughed while she destroyed the only thing he had left in life that he cared for. He was split from the group, he was beaten, starved, cut with a knife multiple times, and chained to a wall. I don't think the fact she destroyed his wife's gun was the only reason he started crying. The man is broken physically and emotionally. Seeing that gun get destroyed may be what broke the camels back.

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Originally Posted by Ray

I ask the mods, why is this allowed? Why are you allowing Osiris to attack me again? I've said nothing to this person, and yet they still treat me this way. I'm coming very close to quitting this community simply because of this one forum poster. I've said nothing malicious, evil, mean, derogatory, or inflammatory to this person since I've been posting and yet I'm still attacked. I really enjoy this podcast and the discussion around its twists and turns, but I'm very unhappy that you, the mods, allow someone to do this time and again. I'm sick of this persons childish behavior, ignorant attacks, and general hostility. Why do you tolerate this person acting this way? Are you all like this person? Disagreements are fine, personal attacks and rudeness aren't ways to treat other members and this should stop immediately.

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And here I thought I was the only one.

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Originally Posted by Ray

Pretty sure that was his wife's gun, not just a gun that had her name on it. It was the last thing he had to remember her by and Scratch laughed while she destroyed the only thing he had left in life that he cared for. He was split from the group, he was beaten, starved, cut with a knife multiple times, and chained to a wall. I don't think the fact she destroyed his wife's gun was the only reason he started crying. The man is broken physically and emotionally. Seeing that gun get destroyed may be what broke the camels back.

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Still doesn't matter, it's an inanimate object, and not the only thing he has to remind him of her, he has actual memories. I do understand the connection, and I do think he would react, but it was too much for me and when I listened I thought scratch overplayed it, the bit that followed was very good though, it was just that short section that I didnt feel sat right. Of course, others will disagree, which is fine.

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Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor

I agree that we should all be more civil in dealing with matters of disagreement. If someone makes an unpopular or confusing comment very little is gained by the overkill of ridicule or satire. A better response would be to first determine if everyone is discussing same points and from what perspective. If all else fails, just agree to disagree or wait and see how the story unfolds.

Perhaps we can better judge Scratch's character by examining how she fits into the story-telling, or narrative, structure. By now, most of us have concluded that the story is told from the perspectives of the protagonists from the Tower. Sometimes the story is told from journal entries and other times we witness the story from a third person perspective limited to the heroes' experiences. Our view of Scratch will be limited by the heroes' interactions with Scratch. Keep in mind that she makes rare appearances in the story, and when she is present, she is usually seen by the main characters as a menace from one extreme to another. There have been few instances that would allow us to see her with any depth as those more personal sides of her would not be seen while she is taunting or tormenting Michael, Angel, Saul, Burt and the others. There have been instances when we can hear glimpses of humanity (Not necessarily compassion) in her voice, such as calling out John's name after he is shot, asking Angel if it is OK to pick up her brother's body, comforting a dying Angel or asking Lizzy if she's been sick at the Car dealership. We all can see how her tragic past can leave her scarred, especially when the story of the rape is spelled out for us. But, this is an audio drama and actors must show us things with their voices if the dialogue is vague or not explicit. Listen to how she sounds when Saul is listening to her and Latch outside the clothing store in Chapter 6 part 2 starting around 16 minutes. She says that she is 'not a waste', she is 'useful.'

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She murdered their radio operator in cold blood after he "confessed" to falling asleep on duty. (well, I guess crippled so the zombies would get him, but essentially murdered him) She also had Kalani's daughter murdered, in cold blood (and a kid no less), in place of Lizzie on that golf course. An act Durai had no hand in, and she hid the fact that they were there at the Tower attacking it from him. Lizzie essentially confirmed this, she's a licensed shrink after all. John also lamented about her past behavior in beating someone severely that worked at a convenience store simply for staring at her scar. There's no reason to believe she has an ounce of compassion, and isn't clinically psychotic. She is written into the story in that capacity, and she's filling that role amazingly well. Jenna is a fantastic actor, but Scratch is anything but sane and compassionate, we've heard enough evidence to prove otherwise with 100% certainty. The story may be skewed in the eyes of the "good guys", but there's been more than enough interaction between her and thos not in the tower to tell us that she's no saint, and will kill, maim, destroy, and abuse to get her way. By projecting her warped and insane "family values" on others shows she has no grip on reality, and no sense of right and wrong. Her past life probably caused this psychosis, but that doesn't mean it's okay to act that way towards others. She's a convicted felon who spent time in solitary, how can anyone believe she's got any decency in her after finding that out, and her continued behavior afterwards.

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Originally Posted by VEE

Still doesn't matter, it's an inanimate object, and not the only thing he has to remind him of her, he has actual memories. I do understand the connection, and I do think he would react, but it was too much for me and when I listened I thought scratch overplayed it, the bit that followed was very good though, it was just that short section that I didnt feel sat right. Of course, others will disagree, which is fine.

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I can see where you are coming from, but I have possessions that would be considered junk to other people that are worth more than ten times their weight in any precious metal. I would be gutted to lose them. Hell, of all the momentos I have from my time in the Marines, I'd trade all of it for a simple patch. Not because it's especially nice, it's not worth any money, but because it holds value to me because of the people that wore the same patch as me. They were my brothers, and not having that specific patch eats at me every day because I have looked through literally everything I own and I can't find it.

Sometimes memories aren't enough, sometimes it only feels real when you have a physical object to remind you of the people and experiences. The world has literally ended, he was left for dead in a bathroom, and the only person that saved him is dead for all he knows. He wasn't cool with the Tower guys at first, but they were really his only family. Now he's surrounded by people that will willingly beat him, cut him, and starve him to death just to get information from him that will allow them to kill the only family he has left. It may be an inanimate object to you and others, but I can see his pain.

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Originally Posted by VEE

Still doesn't matter, it's an inanimate object, and not the only thing he has to remind him of her, he has actual memories. I do understand the connection, and I do think he would react, but it was too much for me and when I listened I thought scratch overplayed it, the bit that followed was very good though, it was just that short section that I didnt feel sat right. Of course, others will disagree, which is fine.

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I'm with you. Scratch's character is overdone ad nauseum but I think it was the cackling that put it over the top for me this time. I also think it would have been more poetic for Scratch to shoot Burt with Shirley; maybe in the kneecap.

Can I ask (and am not being sarcastic, just trying to understand) what would Scratch have to do for you to acknowledge that she has proven to be evil and sadistic. I understand that her brother was killed but he was not murdered. He was killed in clear self-defense. She visited terrible acts on people long before he was killed. I just don't think we can give her a free pass because she has had a difficult life. Many people have terrible childhoods and upbringing and rise e above it to do good. Again I am not trying to be confrontational Osiris honestly, just trying to understand.

I was trying to post in reply to Osiris. Sorry I stuck this in the wrong spot.

Man KC... Kalani, then Angel, then Shirley, and then finally Burt's trigger finger! Your scarring me now. I love a good villain and you are making scratch a really good villain, but damn! Do not have her kill Burt there needs to be an epic battle between good and evil.

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Originally Posted by Stuv

Can I ask (and am not being sarcastic, just trying to understand) what would Scratch have to do for you to acknowledge that she has proven to be evil and sadistic.

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Refusing to be my girlfriend would do it for me personally.
Joking aside, i think we've reached a point where no one's debating what scratch does, and we even have a sort of consensus why she does things, and all thats left is our own personal opinion of her. And i cant see how we can reach a consensus about that...

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Originally Posted by VEE

Still doesn't matter, it's an inanimate object, and not the only thing he has to remind him of her, he has actual memories. I do understand the connection, and I do think he would react, but it was too much for me and when I listened I thought scratch overplayed it, the bit that followed was very good though, it was just that short section that I didnt feel sat right. Of course, others will disagree, which is fine.

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Memories fade in time and the weapon is ... was a trigger to relive those memories.

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Originally Posted by Ray

I can see where you are coming from, but I have possessions that would be considered junk to other people that are worth more than ten times their weight in any precious metal. I would be gutted to lose them. Hell, of all the momentos I have from my time in the Marines, I'd trade all of it for a simple patch. Not because it's especially nice, it's not worth any money, but because it holds value to me because of the people that wore the same patch as me. They were my brothers, and not having that specific patch eats at me every day because I have looked through literally everything I own and I can't find it.

Sometimes memories aren't enough, sometimes it only feels real when you have a physical object to remind you of the people and experiences. The world has literally ended, he was left for dead in a bathroom, and the only person that saved him is dead for all he knows. He wasn't cool with the Tower guys at first, but they were really his only family. Now he's surrounded by people that will willingly beat him, cut him, and starve him to death just to get information from him that will allow them to kill the only family he has left. It may be an inanimate object to you and others, but I can see his pain.

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OH awesome someone understands me. I have this pin my first husband gave it to me when I made e4 as a storekeeper in the USN. Its my crossed keys its a nothing item but it had been his before he gave it me and it meant the world to me as he had given it to me. Even after all these years when the sound of his voice has faded and the memories of how bad things were when it ended have faded the memory of that pin and the feelings that went with it are still strong.

The only difference I can see in what you all are describing with mementos (I have a few of those myself) and what Shirley was to Burt is..burt seemed to treat the gun as if it was the physical embodiment of Shirley. In that way, its as if the real Shirley never died...having keepsakes to remind you of something/someone is perfectly fine, perhaps even healthy in most cases...but when an item replaces a persons physical being in your everyday life?...no. That's not good, no matter how you try to spin it otherwise.

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Originally Posted by 7oddisdead

The only difference I can see in what you all are describing with mementos (I have a few of those myself) and what Shirley was to Burt is..burt seemed to treat the gun as if it was the physical embodiment of Shirley. In that way, its as if the real Shirley never died...having keepsakes to remind you of something/someone is perfectly fine, perhaps even healthy in most cases...but when an item replaces a persons physical being in your everyday life?...no. That's not good, no matter how you try to spin it otherwise.

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Which is why I agreed with Osiris that maybe its destruction will free him to grieve fully. He's never really grieved for her.

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Originally Posted by yarri

I'm torn with Scratch. I love her for her evil maybe that's it. I love to hate the bad things she does but the mother in me wants to hug her and kick the shit out of whom ever hurt her so badly. I realized tonight I REALLLLLLY want to know more about her and her history. What was she like as a child cause no one starts out bad. The things in their world and the choices they make make them bad. Did she laugh did she have dreams hell when she what did she want to do when she grew up. TO many unanswered questions Kc... to many....

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I don't remember ever hating her, more thinking she was a roadblock to our heroes. I've always cringed when our "heroes" called her names because she was scarred. She seems so trapped by her past and present. I love that you can read her past through her present behavior and I love that you can also read it in her tone of voice. I thought you could hear feelings of rage, triumph, sadistic glee AND like a part of her didn't want to do this. Like a part of her was scared at how far she was going.

There has to be a disconnect between what someone does and how you react. If only so that you are in charge of your reactions not them.

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Originally Posted by yarri

Which is why I agreed with Osiris that maybe its destruction will free him to grieve fully. He's never really grieved for her.

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Exactly..must have missed that one. Just woke up.

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Originally Posted by Eviebae

I don't remember ever hating her, more thinking she was a roadblock to our heroes. I've always cringed when our "heroes" called her names because she was scarred. She seems so trapped by her past and present. I love that you can read her past through her present behavior and I love that you can also read it in her tone of voice. I thought you could hear feelings of rage, triumph, sadistic glee AND like a part of her didn't want to do this. Like a part of her was scared at how far she was going.

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Totally spot on. The more I reflect back on what I felt for her it was't really anger at her but at what she was doing. I've also heard fear in her voice.

Wow.. I have finally made it through all the posts. This was some chapter. I think we all like it soo much that we think it’s short because we don’t want it to end.

Anyway, I guess I’m the only one, but I totally missed that Burt’s finger was actually cut off. I heard the lead up to it, but it sounded like something happened and it was ‘cut’ but not cut off. Burt seemed too calm for it to have actually been cut off. Burt took a big fall off a building right? He should have been in some serious pain/disposition. From this chapter, I got the feeling that he didn’t have many injuries. Sure it has been a few months, but he seemed to move and react pretty quickly. (OK relistened.. I got it now. Sheesh, was I slow. )

What I’m thinking, hoping, is that Saul and Victor in going to get the SAT parts and looking for Lizzy will find Burt and rescue everyone. I wonder if Lizzy even knows Burt is even there (guessing not).

Regarding Burts relationship to Shirley. I think unless you have been in that situtation, you can only speculate how you'd feel and/or handle the situation. It's different when you are there and its close to the heart.

BTW, what is the relationship between Durai and Scratch? Who's running the show? It sounded like Durai is the lead man, but Scratch sure seems to run everything. Most leaders, Durai, would give the orders and everyone (Scratch) would carry them out.. I would have expected.

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Originally Posted by forgottenone

BTW, what is the relationship between Durai and Scratch? Who's running the show? It sounded like Durai is the lead man, but Scratch sure seems to run everything. Most leaders, Durai, would give the orders and everyone (Scratch) would carry them out.. I would have expected.

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I think she gets things done; but, when she needs to do something she knows he won't like she "handles" him. I don't think she has the perspective to be a great leader but with time...who knows. It's sort of implied by what Scratch thought the Family's reaction would be to her pregnancy that within the family structure women are second class, maybe third. We really haven't seen anything to imply that there are anyone else from the family involved in the Mallers but she might capitulate out of habit.