Does Kalani get a pass?

What does "give him a pass" mean? Forgive him? Like him? Understand him? Think he was correct?

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Originally Posted by Osiris

You've made this comparison of your own volition. My response poses a diametrically opposed viewpoint and suddenly the two are mutually exclusive? Your lack of ability to argue a point is beyond amazing. I've explained the this adequately, considering your 'argument' is based entirely on one point: omniscience. It is, therefore invalid.

*Drops the mic. Walks away*

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Bullshit. Ray didn't make the comparison. I did, and if you'll notice, we are not the same person. Yes, I agree that Ray's argumentative abilities are lacking, and he seems to be using 'mutually exclusive' in the wrong way. It's not that the ideas are mutually exclusive, they're just not the same. *He's arguing badly, but alas, he isn't me. I'm glad you dropped the mic and walked away, if that's the level of attention you're willing to pay to this argument. If you don't care, go home.

Now that we've gotten that clarification out of the way, on to my main point:

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Originally Posted by Osiris

I'll grant that while we--as outsiders looking in--may have known that Hannah was going to end up taking a dirt nap, it wouldn't have been possible for Kalani to ascertain that he had lost her for good. *Even if the thought had crossed his mind, the thought of getting her back trumps all else. *I think it's necessary to take knowledge through stunted omniscience out of the equation and look at it from a far more limited perspective: Dad's. *If you do that, it's impossible to think you could simply write her off as dead and not bother following the kidnapper's demands to get her back. *

Also, the only person that Kalani technically murdered was Pippin, the guy there to flip the tables on Kalani, sell him out and take over the mission. *The rest is collateral damage. *That said, I flip your last statement. *Would you give a pass to someone who murdered one piece of shit and saved hundreds of lives afterwards?*

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I disagree. If Kalani wanted his daughter back, even if he was inexcusably stupid, and he thought she was still alive, he should have seen that setting up the Mallers was his best bet, and it would've been a great option if he had the chance with the first group.

Kalani killed the others just as much as someone who hires an assassin killed the target of the assassination. He didn't pull the trigger, but he intentionally got them killed.*

For your reversal of my hypothetical scenario, no. I don't give that person a pass. Murder (except with extremely rare extenuating circumstances) is a really shitty thing to do. Ethically, the life-saving is wholly unrelated to the murder. They are separate and don't cancel out, just as a matter particle and an antimatter particle (or a million antimatter particles, for that matter) don't annihilate each other when they are separated by any distance. When they collide, though, it's a different story. If, for example, you kill someone to save your own life, the matter and antimatter (unethical and ethical) collide and annihilate, leaving you with a 'pass.' Unless, of course, there's another way that would be readily visible and feasible. Like if somebody was trying to kill you and you incapacitated them in some way, but then you beat them to death, that's not a 'pass.' If there was another way and it's infeasible that you'd see it, though, it's potentially a 'pass.'

Even if Kalani was an irredeemable idiot, he should've seen another, better way. So no, it's not a 'pass.'

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Originally Posted by shiroidenkou1994

Bullshit. Ray didn't make the comparison. I did, and if you'll notice, we are not the same person. Yes, I agree that Ray's argumentative abilities are lacking, and he seems to be using 'mutually exclusive' in the wrong way. It's not that the ideas are mutually exclusive, they're just not the same. *He's arguing badly, but alas, he isn't me. I'm glad you dropped the mic and walked away, if that's the level of attention you're willing to pay to this argument. If you don't care, go home.

Now that we've gotten that clarification out of the way, on to my main point:



I disagree. If Kalani wanted his daughter back, even if he was inexcusably stupid, and he thought she was still alive, he should have seen that setting up the Mallers was his best bet, and it would've been a great option if he had the chance with the first group.

Kalani killed the others just as much as someone who hires an assassin killed the target of the assassination. He didn't pull the trigger, but he intentionally got them killed.*

For your reversal of my hypothetical scenario, no. I don't give that person a pass. Murder (except with extremely rare extenuating circumstances) is a really shitty thing to do. Ethically, the life-saving is wholly unrelated to the murder. They are separate and don't cancel out, just as a matter particle and an antimatter particle (or a million antimatter particles, for that matter) don't annihilate each other when they are separated by any distance. When they collide, though, it's a different story. If, for example, you kill someone to save your own life, the matter and antimatter (unethical and ethical) collide and annihilate, leaving you with a 'pass.' Unless, of course, there's another way that would be readily visible and feasible. Like if somebody was trying to kill you and you incapacitated them in some way, but then you beat them to death, that's not a 'pass.' If there was another way and it's infeasible that you'd see it, though, it's potentially a 'pass.'

Even if Kalani was an irredeemable idiot, he should've seen another, better way. So no, it's not a 'pass.'

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Set up the folks that have a gun pointed at the head of his daughter. In the hopes that three trained solders (I should rate it 2.5 as Angel had no logged combat time) and a handful of untrained civilians can go and rescue her in one piece against a much larger group of better trained (and if you assume the maulers weren't trained in the use of how to shoot a gun, use a knife or bludgeon someone to death I will politely and respectfully request you remember that Eastern Bay was the prison for the worst offenders of the worst. Not your tax avoiding white collar criminal types but the sort of convicts that make anyone that they get a hold of pray for death.

I'm tired. I'll be back later

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Originally Posted by Eviebae

What does "give him a pass" mean? Forgive him? Like him? Understand him? Think he was correct?

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I took it as believe he was redeemed for his sins..

I don't think Kalani was in a position to trust anyone period. He had no obligation to people he just met over that of his daughter so I don't think he's a bad guy for manipulating those he encountered for her sake. Even if he knew the Mallers were ex-convicts and probably going to murder Hannah any way, in that position all he could do was hope that they wouldn't murder her by doing what he was asked. Maybe he thought he could do his task SO well that he would be rewarded with her life. I think it's clear once he started to see the true nature of the Mallers, he realized the gravity of his actions and sacrificed himself to rectify those deeds.

I'm not saying it isn't controversial, but he gets a pass from me.

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Originally Posted by Eviebae

What does "give him a pass" mean? Forgive him? Like him? Understand him? Think he was correct?

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I think it's kind of like... has he redeemed himself through his final actions--you know, helping Pegs learn to fly, giving the Tower a way out, and finally, taking one for the team. I could be way off on that, but that's what I read into the question. Maybe it's about a hall pass. Or a lift pass.

Personally, i do NOT think he gets a pass because when h called the mallers to the tower he did not even ask if hannah was alive, or for proof. Yes scratch could have not given proof to him but he could have tried then i would have forgiven him.

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Originally Posted by awkwardalex

Personally, i do NOT think he gets a pass because when h called the mallers to the tower he did not even ask if hannah was alive, or for proof. Yes scratch could have not given proof to him but he could have tried then i would have forgiven him.

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That does seem like a strange oversight. I'm not sure we'll ever know the reason behind that, unless of course, Kc decides to give us the skinny on it...

*crosses fingers*

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Originally Posted by awkwardalex

Personally, i do NOT think he gets a pass because when h called the mallers to the tower he did not even ask if hannah was alive, or for proof. Yes scratch could have not given proof to him but he could have tried then i would have forgiven him.

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wait, which tower? if it was his first then he was a little panicked, but had no real reason to doubt that she was still alive atm. if THE tower he did ask at the end of the transmission

Kilani

1. he made others dead as sh*t
2. he's dead as sh*t (or so i think)
3. the end

trying to determine the relative humidity of the tower or what curtains were in bill's apartment (or other random hey let's make sure all the i's are dotted adn t's are castrated stuff) is just stuff

4. i dont really care either way but i just wanted to post in the midst of all this arguing and stuff. i'll go back to finger painting now. thanks