Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin1274
He sort of reminds me of the U.S. Senator from Arizona, John McCain. Tortured as a POW in Vietnam, against the U.S.' use of torture.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin1274
He sort of reminds me of the U.S. Senator from Arizona, John McCain. Tortured as a POW in Vietnam, against the U.S.' use of torture.
Yes, and Micheal was ready to kill Bill to get access to the roof.Quote:
Originally Posted by pmchawk
I can't see Scratch sitting down to do any sort of journalling at the end of the day beyond a grocery list. She seems more the type to try to avoid dealing with her emotions. She certain has a Shit List though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jannit
Not for nothing, but she was sofa king hot in that movie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
As I said on Twitter yesterday, I'm upset with what Riley and Burt, mainly Riley, is about to do. Angel's death is fueling her motive to carry out this action.
However, I can see the reason why Burt is so suspicious. Whenever any of the group is in the presents of a Maller it's just Red Alert instantly. They simply can't be trusted, even if they are telling the truth, the meer fact that Tardust was with the Mallers justifies their actions, so Riley thinks. That and the unnecessary death of Angel.
I can see where they're coming from and what they're thinking, but only bad can come from this. And I hope Riley learns that with the upcoming actions they're about to take, since Burt already knows because he actually let Riley choose what she wanted. Also, Burt's previous military experience would indicate that he knows that the right answer would be to not go ahead with this torchure.
Another thought I have is that, of course, Burt is still pissed at Scratch for what she did to him. So that part of him is just itching to see Tardust or Scratch have a taste of their own medicen, Scratch especially. Burt, if he was thinking rationally, should've told Riley "We're not doing this."
Just my two sense.
True but a girl can dream!Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
I understand that Scratch's behavior as a survivor and a toughened, hardened and strong woman roots in the fate she had. And I feel very sorry for her that she was forced to follow that dark road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
But I am not willing to accept this as an explanation, justification, or simply general reason for any behavior of her. The killing of Charly? Taking Kalani's child hostage in order to force him to do things he wouldn't have done? Twisting words in anyones mouth and to distort the sense of their talkings just to get a better position? Her vile attempt to make Angel speak in her favor, and then by failing with her attempts simply to kill him? And then the torture of Burt, just because she wanted to know where Pegs is? Except for the confrontation with Durai none of these things have to do with the struggle of her survival or can be linked back to her fate. What she did (and still does) is making everyone and everything responsible for her situation without caring for the correct links. She crosses lines as she likes, and almost everything she does is only about herself, her self-pity, lust for revenge, murder, deceit. There are only very few moments in which she has shown a different side. And I would have loved to see more of it to change my mind. But even though she somehow "helped" Lizzy, and although she seems to keep to some very basic core-ideas of working together with a few other survivors, she really is just that: evil. And I don't see anything that could justify, explain, or excuse it. Some time in the past she disconnected from most values, and she sticks with her ways not accepting that there could be others who have just the same right to survive and live their own lives.
As for Kalani: Granted. I only understand, why he did what he did. And I totally agree with Kalani, when he has said that a father would do anything to save his child. That does not make anything he did right; and here, too, there is no excuse or justification for him being a rat and adding a lot to the deep jeopardy the Tower-people got into; but people should remember: basically it was Saul's crazyness that lead to the fall of the Tower, and only very few voices have criticized that. Anyway: Kalani's deeds were the deeds of desperation. And you cannot blame him alone for doing so without considering Scratch's part in it. After all she made him her tool; and if he had not complied, Hannah would have been dead even earlier, and maybe he, too. Why? Because Scratch behaves like that. Because Scratch is an evil bitch. If she does not get what she wants, she puts people into deep misery - this happened with Charly, with Durai, Angel with direct murdering, and indirectly with most other folks around.
I guess we will disagree about this forever.
That does not matter.
And yet I agree with you that living by double-standards is way too common.
And yeah, you don't need to tell me that you don't care about likes and shit; I know you don't care. You simply did not get my point, which is: don't put everyone into the same pot, when it is obvious that the opinions vary a lot more than your postings imply. It is not "all", just maybe "some" or "many", depending on what exact topic you refer to.
Best wishes!
Liam
WTF? Go Go!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
Osiris has made a lot of valid points.
the difference between scratches path and riley's goes like this.
we were given a glint into why scratch obsesses over her revenge for latch via the conversation she had with Lizzie. Her path of obsession and determination started a long time ago. Can you fault someone for seeing a goal and doing everything within their power to reach it? I can't. Does that mean everyone around her dies to reach it? Yea, kinda looks that way, doesn't it. But, that's her path..has been since we met her in the story.
riley has not been on the same path. She has been the broken glue that binds a bunch of broken people together. Her obsession is not guided by revenge, or a sense of duty, but more so by a sense of guilt(to me it seems so at least) that makes her change ugly, and signs of slipping to a dark side of sorts.
scratches dark nature has been there from the beginning, it could be redeemed -however unlikely that is- because she is not broken-. Her emotions are solid,, no matter how misguided they may be. Riley.....well...this is the kind off progression we should have expected..
hope that makes sense...damn tiny keyboard
Funny, it's only an act of desperation if you have the complete context. If you preclude knowledge of Kalani's daughter, it comes across in a very different light--even though he's still trying in desperation to save her life. Context is everything. We don't have all of the context surrounding Scratch. We have snippets, and throw-away lines about her past. Because we have the information to do so, we put Kalani, Riley, and eventually Saul's actions into context which won't vilify them. It'll make them sympathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamKerrington
Hi there, just a short reply. I would like to add the one exception to the rule: Scratch really cared for Latch. He was her constant. Secondly, without her skill- as well as predominantly her mindset, she would be pretty be pretty much dead by now. Does this make her less evil? No. But, putting morality aside, she just happens to be an extremist blueprint for Darwin's theory in a post-apocalyptic world.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamKerrington
I got it from http://werealive.libsyn.com/rss... I have no clue why my file was like that, but well... Maybe it's my podcatcher doing funny Things.......Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamKerrington
As I have said before I do not trust Tardust one inch! He has survived so far only by mixing half truths with lies, he would not have survived in prison or with the Mallers afterwards. He has given Riley and Burt a 3 hour run around without any success in finding Scratch and Co., they have been very patient with him and are correct to suspect that he is hiding information, since info is power. I thought B & R should have threatened Tardust with using him as Zombiebait, that would loosen his tongue for sure! They could make him run behind their truck to work up a sweat and pull him in at the last moment, he would sing like a canary, haha, no physical torture, only psychological.
Scratch is a psychopath, having no feelings for others and acting solely in her own interests. One can test young children psychologically and establish their psychopathic tendencies. Is it nature or nurture? Probably a mixture, but not everyone who has experienced terrible life events becomes warped and revengeful. We don't know that much of her background as per previous posts, but her behavioral tendencies are well established and the only way to protect normal preZA society from her would be prison or an asylum.
What hold does Ink have over Skittles? I agree that the link must be Radon Labs. I don't think he was a test subject as it would be very difficult to test genetically modifying drugs on humans without going through the ethics committee and loads of legislation, unless it was being done secretly like Porton Down chemical test on healthy British Soldiers who were not told at all what they were being exposed to and many suffered terrible long term health consequences. I don't think he met Ink in prison. don't think Skittles was a scientist at Radon but knew what Ink was doing and therefore holds the secret to stopping him. His mind is clearly very muddled and CJ had to remind him of causing the invasion of Dunbar to ensure his help.
From reading all of the other posts, I'm beginning suspect that I'm the only one who thought that Riley was going to go all Mata Hari on Tardust.
We all know that Burt and Riley are looking for Scratch. However, has anyone put much thought into the end game? What happens when they find her? Tell her off? Steal her panties and run them up a flag pole? Shove her into the mud? Roll up their sleeves, make a fist and say, "Why I outta!"?, Wedgies and titty twisters?
Perhaps something more brutal, such as locking her in a Colony prison, using her as zombie bait or killing her on the spot. Exactly what is everyone expecting to happen when she is caught?
Supposed they captured Scratch in bed with Tardust? She doesn't put up a fight. What would they do to her as a defenseless captive? It's a No-Brainer to kill her if she's currently threatening your life.
How does this relate to torturing Tardust? That depends on how you view killing vs torture. What would they do to Tardust, or any other Maller, if they found all of the Mallers together, around a campfire making smores? "OK guy's, she's dead now. Run along and stay out of trouble this time."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwYDx5rDABI
"My name's Pussy Galore" - "I must be dreaming!"Quote:
WD, you have not been informed, have you? We will indeed get our musical episode in the end.
The Scratch story arc will be therefor be concluded by this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMVTOxELjfU
I wasn't saying that anyone would like this idea, I was just saying that's how it is. There is nothing like adversity to bring out people's true character. I feel that most of us live our lives with a higher sense of our own goodness than we actually live, so if a person is somewhat selfish, for example, then that selfishness is going to manifest much more plainly in the world of the Zompocalypse than in our current situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by UndeadSweeper
By the way, I don't see there being any clean line between 'my morality' and the world that I live in; each influences the other, to varying degrees, and changes over time. Slavery, for example, was seen as part of the natural order of things by a good number of people centuries ago, but is largely despised as an immoral practice by most today. The world is continually influencing our sense of morality, so in that sense you are already a 'slave' to this world... ;)
I'm digging this discussion y'all.
Now this is just me, but I'ma thinking that they'd be killin' 'er once they caught her. I agree with your sentiment--it's not as if waterboarding Tardust is the equivalent of wanton violence against an innocent civilian: this fucker DID attack the Tower with all the rest of the Mallers, and the truck bomb that he designed was instumental in bringing it down. He is as responsible as anyone for the death of Angel and all the other redshirts killed at the tower that day. :nik:Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombiekiller100
I believe this to be a wholly incorrect diagnosis. Scratch displays sociopathic tendencies, not psychopathic. The biggest factor being she understands the difference between right and wrong (rape, protecting unborn children, empathy for child-bearing women, etc), she simply chooses to ignore it and follow her own code and compass--which is indicative of the sociopath. She's far, far from a psychopath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litmaster
while entirely true. Does the effects of the post-apocalyptic situation not also change how you should deal with prisoners of war?(and lets face it, that's what phillip is).
pre-z day, a soldier from an opposing force taken would be held accountable for the actions of his side. Even though, he was simply following orders. The insight we have as to tars involvement and his morale character are not things our "good guys" are really privy to. What you do not hear firsthand does not affect your judgment -or at least it shouldnt-
in the current scenario, what's more important? Revenge for fallen comrades, or increasing your own survival rate? From everything we have heard...thats exactly why they found Phillip to begin with. In a group of 100 mallers, his survival rate was 100:1. Now, with it being only four, and scratch still obsessed with her revenge....whats that make it? 3:1??? By those odds id strike out on my own as well. Still blows my mind that people don't believe him. We were given the small vignette with he and scratch for just this reason. No part of his character says "I'm loyal to the end boss! Count on me!"
but back on topic. Knowing what they do of him...does his insight help the group? That's a decidng factor for me...if you talk shit about me and I never hear it, it never happened..simple as that.
I should add....yes, they see scratch...shoot to kill. No talking, no questions. Her agenda is clear, its simply protecting others, possibly on both sides, from further death.
Some psychiatrist have used psychopath and sociopath interchangeably, as have I. In modern psychiatry they are seen as separate diagnoses but have a considerable overlap. Scratch exhibits elements of both however more IMHO psychopathic elements: high incidence of violence and impulsivity, lack of conscience and empathy, erratic and violent criminal behavior, values relationships that only benefit themselves. She let her brother go to prison for a crime she committed ! Interestingly, studies on the brain waves of psychopaths have indicated that there is a marked difference in how their brains react to certain stimuli. Because they have no feeling and no concern for others or themselves, the threat of fear does not trigger the same response in the brain of a psychopath that it does in another person. Some believe sociopaths have a very skewed moral compass whereas psychopaths a brain abnormality in the amygdala which controls emotional responses. Compassion meditations undertaken by bhuddist monks have been analysed in functional brain MRI scans and linked to increased social connectedness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
I have sympathy for Scratch, but I don't see any hope for her redemption. Leaving aside Burt, and the murder of various Mallers, the worst things on Scratch's slate are the ones that were only hinted at. The treatment of the Maller's "slaves". What happened to the Colonists under Maller rule. The short, and probably horrific life of Kalani's daughter, Hannah, from the time she was captured to the day she was executed to provide a "distraction".
Definitely a sociopath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombiekiller100
The two are not interchangeable. Psychopaths display an inherent incapability to plan their acts ahead of time, they act impulsively. Scratch clearly displays the opposite. Sociopaths are thoughtful in their acts, meticulous with their planning. Psychopaths have zero moral compass, and no clear definitions of right and wrong. They draw no lines of distinction. Scratch has expressed regret, empathy, sympathy, and remorse. Something psychopaths are incapable of. Psychopaths are unable to maintain or nurture relationships, with strangers or even family members. They are habitual loners, and awkward in social situations. Something Scratch is decidedly not. She's organized, and the only thing that mattered to her was her brother. Typical traits of the sociopath.
The fact is, the only trait she possesses that would assume psychopathy is her temperament. She displays the ability to understand how to behave in social situations, but she also displayed a modicum of compulsiveness, acting without forethought regardless of danger to herself or those under her. That in itself does not necessarily make her a psychopath. The attack on the tower serves as an example of sociopathic tendencies. It was organized, and well-planned. She had plan. She lost her brother, and fell into a fit of blind rage, something anyone is capable of. Issues? Yes. Psychopath? No. Decidedly not.
Yes, but everyone in the movie had a Blood pressure of 1200/800Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7oddisdead
I think you mean....."Shoot that bitch in the face!"
He is my take on it.
Scratch is an evil bitch. People can toss out "You don't know her side of the story" and "She is a victim of her past" or "We don't know all the details" but it doesn't matter IMO. The facts are what they are. She tortured and murdered an innocent man at The Mall to cover her track with the tanker. She kidnapped an innocent girl and blackmailed her father with her. She had Hanna killed as well. She caused the fight with The Tower for who knows why. It was hinted she killed Dr. Jason to cover her tracks more murdering Angel. She tortured Burt. As soon as she realized that Bricks told on her she murdered him. Then she had dozens killed when The Tower fell. It was hinted she let her brother go to jail for crimes she committed. If Riley goes through with this she is stepping over a line. The difference is what she does later. Scratch got worse. She is an animal.
It is what it is.
Riley's path is following hers. "How far are you willing to go for Revenge?" We will soon see. We were made to like Riley more than Scratch. Scratch is that villain we love to hate. She is well written. I am pretty damn sure KC even wrote her this way for this reason. To show us how close these people are to becoming Scratch. What happens when you let go of the morals that makes us human.
Kulani was given a pass by me as soon as I learned about his daughter. I have two sons. A Four year old and soon to be three year old. The question isn't what I would do to save them, but what wouldn't I do. I would have willingly did all he did and more. I am sure anyone with a kid would agree. There is a double standard. It's called life. In a perfect world both Scratch and Kulani would be held to the same standard. They both did horrible stuff. Life is not perfect though. It isn't Black and White. At the end of the day the ideals of different. Scratch is evil and does thinsg for her own selfish reasons. Thus she doesn't get a pass. Kulani was a desperate man trying to get back his kid. He does.
On Morality when the world ends...
If this show has shown us anything is that Morality is what keeps us from being the Monsters. There are certain lines you can't cross. I want to say the ends justify the means, but that isn't the case. When you are willing to do anything you end up with nothing. Without some Morals you become an animal. Yes, your morals have to change. Pegs learned that. You can't cling to everything. You have to be willing to change. The goal is to still be human when you do.
:nik:Quote:
Originally Posted by TacticalJHP
Those are the facts as you see them, yes. Some of it is speculative, some is a matter of perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verse
For the record, the reason behind the war at the tower, the attacks on the Michael's group... the entire Scratch arc all hinges on one act. Burt shooting the mirror of the tanker truck in Scratch's first appearance in an attempt to assert his alpha dog status. Burt's ego got all of those people killed. Burt's actions caused Pegs to be hunted, Lizzy to be kidnapped, and almost raped, and CJ to lose her leg.
Hmmm... well, I don't think so. The common factor here is that there are two opposing sides: allied and enemy. Anything that would help your side win the conflict (whether Maller or Tower side) would be fair game in this situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7oddisdead
In this case, revenge and increasing survival rate are one on the same, assuming they can take out Scratch. Presumably Tardust has cut bait with Scratch, thus making him less of a threat, but there is no good way for Burt or Riley to verify this. For all they know, he could be lying through his teeth. The application of torture in this case is a use of force intended to get the truth from Tar-- the whole truth, and nothing but the truth... :nik:Quote:
Originally Posted by 7oddisdead
Wow. Osi's zealous devotion to Scratch has muddied his judgement to the extreme, and this post is evidence of the fact. Come on, man... you're seriously trying to pin all that on Burt?! Why don't you just blame it all on Lady, since the whole 'Burt shooting the tanker truck mirror' incident wouldn't have happened if that fucking mutt didn't have to take a leak in the first place!Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
We will have to agree to disagree on that. Some of that is speculative. I disagree that it is perspective. Scratch torturing Burt is not perspective outside of you wanting to make an excuse for her. Her tormenting and murdering a innocent man to cover her tracks at the tuck yards is not perspective outside of gasping straws. Doctor Jason, Brother in Jail, that was indeed hinted at but not confirmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
As for Burt causing the fight on ego.
I disagree as well. We know that The Mallers were slavers and making plans to take out Dunbar if needed. To say Burt not backing down to Scratch is what caused everything is nuts. You can say that the Tankers were theirs and by taking them started the war... but they also stole his guns from his shop. To say "Yeah.. Those guys that are slavers... murderers... rapists... and thieves would have just left The Tower alone if Burt would not played Alpha Dog" is crazy talk. What The Mallers are is indeed fact as well. Tardust tried to rape Lizzy..They had Slaves.... CJ had a file over them killing people for supplies... and they kidnapped and innocent girl and raided Burt's Place.
Oh... and they attacked and took over The Colony first chance they got. The Colony did nothing to them. Dunbar did nothing to them, but they kidnapped (and murdered) an innocent girl to plant a mole to find a way to take them out if needed.
So I am not buying the "Burt's Ego caused this". He may have alerted them when they went to the Truck Yard, but that isn't his fault. Based on what they did to The Colony, and planning on Dunbar, it would have just been a matter of time.
It's a fact. If Burt hadn't whipped his dick out, and tried to be a bigger man than a girl--which says all kinds of shit about what type of guy Burt really is--things could have gone in a very, very different direction. There's no muddy judgement, no twisted logic, only simple facts easily proven. Disagree? Go to the tape, and re-listen to Burt fire the first shot, the shot that started the war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Litmaster
I don't want to get into the who started what argument, cause honestly I don't care. But there's no denying that incident, and those two people are what started all the conflict(person to person). Ego and determination facing off. Simple as that. Assign blame to whomever you want...
Now you're just plain high if you think that guy in the yard was innocent. You said so yourself, "murderers... rapists... and thieves." As for enslavement? Who was in charge at the Mall? I forget. His name... started with a D... Darren? Daryl? Durai? It's been so long, I've lost perspective on history. None of them are innocents. As for her brother going to jail for her? That's between the two of them. The only person grasping at straws here is you and your staunch refusal to see the story from any perspective other than the one you hold to be the right one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verse
TARDUST tried to rape Lizzy, not Scratch. Fact is Scratch threatened to feed him to The Sisters for it. So... As far as what she did to Burt, cutting off his finger to get information? Sure. She tortured him to find Pegs, which is par for the course. Isn't Tardust in danger of suffering a similar fate at the hands of someone who, by your definition of degrees of sanity and culpability, is on the side of righteousness? Or am I completely mistaken that the likelihood of torture is not imminent?
As for CJ? She has her own motivations for what she does. She has a file on everyone, not just those from the mall. That's her thing.
Beyond that you're speculating on a possible future-past. The difference between my speculation, and your speculation is mine doesn't ally itself with your own, therefore I must be wrong. And in circles we go.
In that case, I'm blaming Blaire. It's all her fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7oddisdead
What if Scratch really did attack one of the convoys but had a gun to the head of whoever responded to Kelly over the radio. At least some people who were at the colony knew that Pegs was staying behind at Dunbar with Michael and the rest of the tower gang. Scratch could get that information out of them as well as where Dunbar is located.
None of that was personal for scratch in the beginning.
By the point she even met burt, she had broken into Burt's shop and raided it for weapons, broke her brother and other prisoners out of jail, Set up a fortress at the mall filled with slaves, Captured Pippin, Koloni, and his daughter and used them to spy on Dunbar, and seized a fuel tanker refinery.
At that point she was still following Durai's plan and not going for vengeance, and his plan was for tankers. If she lost one, it was her ass.
Saul, Lizzy, and Burt was taking one. They were expected to stop them. They did, then demanded sex from Lizzy in exchange for the tanker. They all agree no deal, and Burt shoots the tanker mirror to get Latch and Scratch to go away. There were no pissing contests.
Saul finds the Mallers, and then pissed Durai off because he wanted all the tankers. The only reason she knew where the tower was is because Saul followed them on a scooter and then they followed him to find the tower. Durai wanted the tower. Thus started the war.
The war lead to Latch's death at the hands of Pegs in order to defend her man. It is only by some miracle that Scratch even saw it was Pegs who shot, or that Pegs still lived, or that Scratch lived. (or that's good writing)
This sets off the personal vendetta that scratch cannot let go. She has to hide the vendetta while under Durai's orders like
1 setting up the bait-and-switch with Kolaini's daughter
2 Bombing the hell out of the arena
3 Attacking the tower a second time
4 Taking over the colony
5 Running the slaves
All while....
1 keeping lizzy from being raped
2 Keeping lizzy captive
3 burying latch
4 finding Pegs
5 Finding Angel and keeping him alive
6 Finding burt and keeping him captive
7 Taking care of Lizzy's pre-natal needs
8 Burt Torture
9 Murdering Angel
10 Assassination of Durai
11 running for her life from the colony
12 running from B&R while still stalking pegs for MONTHS.
Scratch is crazy for life.
Riley might get violent for a little while, and cross the line. Crossing the line does not put you even near someone who is crazy for life. Especially if you choose not to stay on that side of the line. Will she? Tine in in two weeks...
Close. Very close.
Well, in all honesty: it makes them pathetic to a certain degree. I only understand them, because people react to certain situations very different. I really hated Saul for his wild heart for quite a while; the cold-blooded murder of Pippin performed by Kalani still freaks me out; and about Riley I am steal very concerned and hope that she does not follow that dark road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris
As for Scratch: We received three basic and important background information on her: she was a victim of violence and tragedy, and she deserves all my sorrow and grief for what happened back then; she did everything to get her brother out of prison; and her main agenda is to take revenge on the one person that took his brother's life and thus took away the last "warm feelings" from Scratch. As with Kalani, Saul, and Riley: I do understand.
In both cases I am not willing to go any further. There is no reason to justify or excuse things; maybe some of these things may seve as explanations, but nothing more than that.
Besides: If you are willing to neglect Scratch's "evilness" because of her dark and shadowy past thus putting everything about her into context, why wouldn't you accept the context of Kalani's story? Isn't this kind of a double-standardization as well? That struck my mind last night ...
Best wishes!
Liam
Good wuestion. I have not thought about it yet. But from the beginning I thought of it as being simply wrong. They are and about in a depoulated world where the most important thing is survival. Sticking to a plan of "revenge", and that is as - I understand it - the sole motivation behind this hunting and searching, is kind of stupid. No, not, kind of ... VERY stupid. Maybe it is just the logical consequence when Riley finally ticks out and goes all Guantanamo on Tardust ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
