Chapter 22 - "Our Doubts Are Traitors" - Part 1

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Originally Posted by smallskenobi

i think at one point, Kelly was the traitor. after Tommy's death she had a change of heart, so she stopped contacting the mallers. so the mallers send in pippin as a backup. once kelly got some alone time with pippin in the guard room, she then questions him to see if he's there to spy, or if his story about him escaping is true. she then finds out he is there to spy, she's been on guard duty for a while, she had more than enough time to come up with a plan. listening to pippin's final words, he seemed surprised at who and what that person was doing. it would make sense for it to be the person he had the long talk with.

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This is my favorite explanation so far, and it supports my belief that Kelly was the rat, but decided to have a change of heart, and wants to hide her past actions. Nicely said! :)

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Originally Posted by clparson

That may be true, but Pippin already knows Kelly's name. Wouldn't he be like, "No, Kelly!" and so on?

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I agree with this he would have shouted out her name if she were getting ready to shoot him. I'm putting my money on Richard (is that his name? The one who didn't want to watch him in the first place?) It would be a brilliant move by the writers because it makes sense and it doesn't cost any of the characters that we have come to love any respect or integrity by being a traitor. It also makes the most sense in the story, he creates a big stir by getting Lizzy kicked out, therefore dividing the best fighters in the tower, then he refuses to watch over Pippin, who would instantly recognize him for who he is. By being able to go somewhere else, he is able to set himself up to sneak back to the monitor area and pull the trigger. I also believe that he knew full well that Hope would be the one who would replace Kelly, making his deception all the more easy to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Leedo2502

Hell yeah Nik I agree with like 75% of this post (with the eception of the last line). I've already listened to this episode 2 times already and plan on going beck to where Stevie boy makes his first appearence to listen again.

But yeah the 25% I disagree with is that we know that the Rat is the shooter because if memory serves Steve was adamant about booting Lizzie and maybe thats why Tardust and Bricks knew who she was (Steve giving the mallers a BOLO on Lizzy after she got the boot). If there is another Rat I'd be supprised...

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Hey, you don't have to agree, but there has been more than one person on here saying the shooter and the Rat aren't the same person. I happen to think they are the same. I was just pointing out how well crafted the story is :)

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Originally Posted by zombiederek

I agree with this he would have shouted out her name if she were getting ready to shoot him. I'm putting my money on Richard (is that his name? The one who didn't want to watch him in the first place?) It would be a brilliant move by the writers because it makes sense and it doesn't cost any of the characters that we have come to love any respect or integrity by being a traitor. It also makes the most sense in the story, he creates a big stir by getting Lizzy kicked out, therefore dividing the best fighters in the tower, then he refuses to watch over Pippin, who would instantly recognize him for who he is. By being able to go somewhere else, he is able to set himself up to sneak back to the monitor area and pull the trigger. I also believe that he knew full well that Hope would be the one who would replace Kelly, making his deception all the more easy to accomplish.

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If it were Richard, I would feel completely cheated. It wouldn't be fair because he was an out-of-left-field character. I don't want my respect for the main characters that I think I know to be reserved. I want my trust in them to be shattered in the most brutal way!

How possible is it that Hope was regaining her vision but kept quiet about it?
If it's possible she wasn't shot and didn't die, is it possible she was the shooter?
It wouldn't be that hard to fake being partially blind (hell, I had everyone at work convinced I couldn't hear the pitch the phone rang at for almost 2 years). Who would suspect a young partially blind girl?

Of course, next week we'll find out she was shot and I'll be wrong.

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Originally Posted by fairyfartz

How possible is it that Hope was regaining her vision but kept quiet about it?
If it's possible she wasn't shot and didn't die, is it possible she was the shooter?
It wouldn't be that hard to fake being partially blind (hell, I had everyone at work convinced I couldn't hear the pitch the phone rang at for almost 2 years). Who would suspect a young partially blind girl?

Of course, next week we'll find out she was shot and I'll be wrong.

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Odds of her spontaneously regaining her sight: Slim. The physical impact caused enough damage to her eyes that she went blind. That sort of damage requires surgery to repair. Is it possible her body fixed itself? Yeah, but it's not likely.

It's certainly possible she was shot and didn't die, but she would have to have been shot in an area where she wouldn't scream, cry or make any sounds at all. And I don't think she could be the shooter.

I think if it came down to faking being blind, or admitting you have eye sight to stay in the Colony which is the safest place you would have found up until then.....I think I would drop the act and pitch in if I could. And if it was still an act, once she left the colony with people she trusted I think that would be a good time to drop it too.

I hope she wasn't shot. I think that would be sad to let Greg Miller get his way and kill off both kids in the show....heartless bastard! ;)

Wow, wow, wow. First things first, from the title I think we'll find out that Pippen wasn't sent as a spy. Don't know why, but perhaps the fact that they doubted Pippen so much will be a big regret for the tower.

Another thing, clearly from his reaction Pippen knew who the shooter was, which suggests that it was the rat, but the way he said it suggest that it's NOT someone that he had met thus far in the tower i.e. Michael, Angel, Kelly, Datu etc. This would even rule out Steven, who would've been prime suspect for me.

I am glad that Pippen's gone. His accent was becoming unbearable. Going to go back and listen carefully now for any clues as to who the shooter was.

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Originally Posted by fairyfartz

How possible is it that Hope was regaining her vision but kept quiet about it?
If it's possible she wasn't shot and didn't die, is it possible she was the shooter?
It wouldn't be that hard to fake being partially blind (hell, I had everyone at work convinced I couldn't hear the pitch the phone rang at for almost 2 years). Who would suspect a young partially blind girl?

Of course, next week we'll find out she was shot and I'll be wrong.

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If that were so, it was a pretty risky move on her part, especially at the Colony. There would be no reason to keep her around. However, she has been blind for a good amount of time now. It is possible that maybe HOPE grabbed the gun they keep in the guard room (as I assume they still do) and fired towards the direction the shots were coming from. No one would expect a blind girl to pick up a gun and be able to fire it.

I think if Hope just stood up and shot him that Pippen exchange with the shooter would have been different.

I'm putting my chips on Riley with really nothing to back it up but gut feeling and the fact that she spared Angels life

After listening to the episode twice and reading through every page of this thread, here are my thoughts:

1.) I highly, highly doubt we're going to find out whodunnit anytime soon. We still don't know who the Rat is, and it's been how long? Bet you any money this is going to be an ongoing puzzle we won't figure out for awhile. At any rate, it doesn't even matter who did it. The Tower is going to be thrown into turmoil. Trust between people is really going to be tested now! Shit's gonna hit the fan.

2.) Also, no one can say for sure that the Rat/Shooter are the same person or that Pippin did/did not know the identity of the Shooter. It's ambiguous at this point, no matter how hard you argue that it's not! We still have to consider all the scenarios, yo!

3.) If anyone 100% figures everything out and it turns out their theory ends up being correct, I will go buy a hat and eat it. This is just proof of my faith that KC is going to rock our worlds with something insane and out-of-left-field. I'm not even gonna try to speculate. Jesus take the wheel! Lol.

So, what is up with Burt? Did he get infected from Saul? I think that because he has had more direct contact with Saul's body fluids (I meant blood, you sickos!), it isn't a long shot that Burt contracted whatever turns people into the "zombies". I think Saul has some kind of mutation or gene that prevents him from turning completely.

Scratch some of what I just said. The shooter is Steven, it makes perfect sense. Him and Pippen never saw each other from what I can gather, so Pippen wouldn't have recognised him yet. Also, Steven was totally against going in with him, for 2 reasons - he didn't want Pippen to see him yet and it he would've had to have shot himself to avoid suspicion, if he was with Pippen when he got shot.

Looking back, it was Steven that basically forced Burt to kick Lizzie out. Clearly that was so that the mallers could get their hands on her. For me he's got to be the rat as well as the shooter.

(Hope this hasn't all already been said)

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Originally Posted by mush_rooms

After listening to the episode twice and reading through every page of this thread, here are my thoughts:

1.) I highly, highly doubt we're going to find out whodunnit anytime soon. We still don't know who the Rat is, and it's been how long? Bet you any money this is going to be an ongoing puzzle we won't figure out for awhile. At any rate, it doesn't even matter who did it. The Tower is going to be thrown into turmoil. Trust between people is really going to be tested now! Shit's gonna hit the fan.

2.) Also, no one can say for sure that the Rat/Shooter are the same person or that Pippin did/did not know the identity of the Shooter. It's ambiguous at this point, no matter how hard you argue that it's not! We still have to consider all the scenarios, yo!

3.) If anyone 100% figures everything out and it turns out their theory ends up being correct, I will go buy a hat and eat it. This is just proof of my faith that KC is going to rock our worlds with something insane and out-of-left-field. I'm not even gonna try to speculate. Jesus take the wheel! Lol.

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Your Falcons hat is in the mail. ;)

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Originally Posted by clarkie

Scratch some of what I just said. The shooter is Steven, it makes perfect sense. Him and Pippen never saw each other from what I can gather, so Pippen wouldn't have recognised him yet. Also, Steven was totally against going in with him, for 2 reasons - he didn't want Pippen to see him yet and it he would've had to have shot himself to avoid suspicion, if he was with Pippen when he got shot.

Looking back, it was Steven that basically forced Burt to kick Lizzie out. Clearly that was so that the mallers could get their hands on her. For me he's got to be the rat as well as the shooter.

(Hope this hasn't all already been said)

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Totally confused. I thought Richard was the one. But, of course, I am usually wrong. Well, if that is the case, I stand by my opinion that if Steven/Richard/Whoever that guy is ends up being the rat, I am going to throw a major BF.

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Originally Posted by clparson

Totally confused. I thought Richard was the one. But, of course, I am usually wrong. Well, if that is the case, I stand by my opinion that if Steven/Richard/Whoever that guy is ends up being the rat, I am going to throw a major BF.

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The one who wouldn't go in with Pippen is the same one that got Lizzie kicked out, right? Well, whatever his name is, I think he's the one that shot Pippen.

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Originally Posted by clparson

So, what is up with Burt? Did he get infected from Saul? I think that because he has had more direct contact with Saul's body fluids (I meant blood, you sickos!), it isn't a long shot that Burt contracted whatever turns people into the "zombies". I think Saul has some kind of mutation or gene that prevents him from turning completely.

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Nah, I think its just his nerves. He said it himself that he had it once after his wife died. And that it started happening again BEFORE he shot Saul. So Nah, he just has The shakes.

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Your Falcons hat is in the mail ;)

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Sweet, free hat! Not really a Falcons fan, but whatevs. There will be no hat-eating anyway, I'm so confident. Should I say...BLINDLY confident in KC? Eh? EH? Get it? XD

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Originally Posted by smallskenobi

Nah, I think its just his nerves. He said it himself that he had it once after his wife died. And that it started happening again BEFORE he shot Saul. So Nah, he just has The shakes.

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Agreed. I think that this also shows that he no longer has super human shooting powers, and is a vulnerable (and slightly less useful) character. But I feel this puts him in danger of becoming the next character to be killed. A tragic hero...

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Originally Posted by smallskenobi

Nah, I think its just his nerves. He said it himself that he had it once after his wife died. And that it started happening again BEFORE he shot Saul. So Nah, he just has The shakes.

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Thanks for clearing that up, I had forgotten his explanation. I wonder what brought them back...

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Originally Posted by mush_rooms

Sweet, free hat! Not really a Falcons fan, but whatevs. There will be no hat-eating anyway, I'm so confident. Should I say...BLINDLY confident in KC? Eh? EH? Get it? XD

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Ha ha. That was cornier than my great aunt's feet.

Here's a question that just popped into my head: Assuming the missing silenced pistol is the same weapon used to kill Pippin (and maybe Hope). Why did the shooter steal it in the first place?
As I understand the timeline, Everyone packed up to attack the mall to try and rescue Lizzie, only to find the Mallers gone. Saul and Burt went to LAX to look for a helocopter while everyone else went back to the tower...THEN Pippin showed up while Saul and Burt were at LAX. So why did the shooter steal the gun? Was there some other plan, maybe disabling thee radio, maybe something else? Because if the gun was stolen before Pippin showed up, killing him couldn't have been the primary reason for stealing it.

Yeah, just listened back and it's definitely Steven that won't go in with Pippen. Also looked in the wiki and it was him that got Lizzie kicked out. My theory still stands. He's the shooter and possibly the rat. :)

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Originally Posted by Rock Daddy

Agreed. I think that this also shows that he no longer has super human shooting powers, and is a vulnerable (and slightly less useful) character. But I feel this puts him in danger of becoming the next character to be killed. A tragic hero...

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Yeah, the whole situation is just a slap to the face back to reality. to remind us all that he's still just human.

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Originally Posted by clarkie

Yeah, just listened back and it's definitely Steven that won't go in with Pippen. Also looked in the wiki and it was him that got Lizzie kicked out. My theory still stands. He's the shooter and possibly the rat. :)

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It could really be anyone, but I think Steven is a Red Herring, meant to raise suspicion and divert us from the real killer. But it's so damn confusing - It could be anyone! AAAhhhh!!!!

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Originally Posted by HardKor

Here's a question that just popped into my head: Assuming the missing silenced pistol is the same weapon used to kill Pippin (and maybe Hope). Why did the shooter steal it in the first place?
As I understand the timeline, Everyone packed up to attack the mall to try and rescue Lizzie, only to find the Mallers gone. Saul and Burt went to LAX to look for a helocopter while everyone else went back to that tower...THEN Pippin showed up while Saul and Burt were at LAX. So why did the shooter steal the gun? Was there some other plan, maybe disabling thee radio, maybe something else? Because if the gun was stolen before Pippin showed up, killing him couldn't have been the primary reason for stealing it.

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I suddenly care much less about the why. I suddenly care about the people who were in that rescue party at the Mall before the group split and who the potential assassin could be. The rescue group was just Burt, Saul, Michael, Riley, and Angel. Burt and Saul aren't in the Tower which means the only possibilities for someone who would have had access to the silenced pistol that's supposed to be in the bag and Pippin are Michael, Riley and Angel.

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Originally Posted by Rock Daddy

It could really be anyone, but I think Steven is a Red Herring, meant to raise suspicion and divert us from the real killer. But it's so damn confusing - It could be anyone! AAAhhhh!!!!

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Yeah, knowing KC I could be picking up on clues that are there to throw people off.

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Originally Posted by Rock Daddy

It could really be anyone, but I think Steven is a Red Herring, meant to raise suspicion and divert us from the real killer. But it's so damn confusing - It could be anyone! AAAhhhh!!!!

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I'm praying for a Clue-like episode where Michael and Angel creep around looking for clues and trying to figure out whodunnit. Like Sherlock Holmes and Watson. Bromance included. I'd be such a giddy little mystery-fan!

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Originally Posted by mush_rooms

I'm praying for a Clue-like episode where Michael and Angel creep around looking for clues and trying to figure out whodunnit. Like Sherlock Holmes and Watson...

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Oh at first I thought you meant like the 1985 Comedy film, "Clue." =P

Great Movie BTW ;)

If nothing else, we know that there is no way Saul or Burt could be the rat/shooter since they were not even at the tower. Also, those other two minor characters that were supposed to meet them can't be the rat/shooter either for the same reason. We know it can't be Hope. Of course, it wouldn't be Michael. He is our hero. It can't be Lizzie as she is still being held captive. It can't be Pegs because she hates guns. That leaves us Datu, Angel, Steven, Riley, or Kelly. Please reply if there are others I am missing from either list.

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Originally Posted by Kn1ckerb0cker33

Oh at first I thought you meant like the 1985 Comedy film, "Clue." =P

Great Movie BTW ;)

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Colonel Mustard: *after peaking his head into a room* Just checking!

Miss Scarlett: Everything all right?

Colonel Mustard: Yup. Two Corpses. Everything's fine.

(Just swap Mustard/Scarlett with Michael and Pegs ;))

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Colonel Mustard: *after peaking his head into a room* Just checking!

Miss Scarlett: Everything all right?

Colonel Mustard: Yup. Two Corpses. Everything's fine.

(Just swap Mustard/Scarlett with Michael and Pegs ;))

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Love that movie. "I'm the butler. I buttle sir." :)

I don't think Steven's the shooter. He just seems too obvious a choice.
I think having him refuse to work guard duty - which automatically set off some alarm bells - was an attempt to mislead us.

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Originally Posted by clparson

If it were Richard, I would feel completely cheated. It wouldn't be fair because he was an out-of-left-field character. I don't want my respect for the main characters that I think I know to be reserved. I want my trust in them to be shattered in the most brutal way!

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I think I miss-quoted his name I believe its Steven. I was so excited to start posting after this episode I simply forgot his name! lol It would make a lot of sense for it to be him. He's been there the whole time we just haven't heard much from him until now. I really don't think it would make sense for a character like Kelly, or Angel to be a traitor because of all that they have done for the tower already. We all remember how freaked out Kelly was once she tried to leave the Tower the first time so I don't think that she would be too keen to have the Tower taken down, especially by a bunch of murderous criminals. And Burt, as well as Michael, Angel, Saul and even Datu have too much integrity for a betrayal of this magnitude. I would even go so far as to say that it would seriously hurt the overall story if one of these characters happened to be the traitor. I would accept one of their deaths with a heavy heart, but I could never believe that one of them would ever have it in them to betray their friends and those they brought in to protect. A character like Steven however, has no real moral compass, as we saw with the Lizzy incident. At one point it appeared that he even wanted to take over as leader until he was put in his place by Burt. It would make sense that he would be scared enough to talk to the Mallers and strike a deal with them to benefit his own needs. I also believe that Pippin was not working with the Mallers, but was in fact a living signal to Steven as a way to let him know that his strike was to begin.

I think that the obvious choice is to put the gun in Steven's hands. But that's just it, it seems too easy. Too obvious.

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Love that movie. "I'm the butler. I buttle sir." :)

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I also love this movie, dearly in fact. If there were an episode like THAT...oh man. Lol.

There are two plot templates in movies/books/etc that I will never tire of...murder mysteries and elaborate heists. If there is ever a heist episode in We're Alive then life will be complete.

Can anyone fill in the Datu timeline? I feel like we are missing something there. He was reported to be on the roof, downstairs getting tools, and then supposed to be on the road. If they were on the road, how long do we think they had been out? Is it just that Michael forgot where he was when he sent Steven up to find him? I am re-listening now myself, so will probably have the answer in a few, but think that it is worth putting here.
Thanks

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Originally Posted by cupcakezombie

Can anyone fill in the Datu timeline? I feel like we are missing something there. He was reported to be on the roof, downstairs getting tools, and then supposed to be on the road. If they were on the road, how long do we think they had been out? Is it just that Michael forgot where he was when he sent Steven up to find him? I am re-listening now myself, so will probably have the answer in a few, but think that it is worth putting here.
Thanks

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There's no way that it was Datu. His love for Samantha would keep him from harming Hope, and it sounds like the shooter put one in her forehead, by how it sounded like it was one shot and then a body hit the floor. Besides, Angel knew where he was anyway as he corrected Michael on his whereabouts. The only person who can be unaccounted for at the time of the shooting is Steven.

Listen to the episode's end again, the pistol is silenced, i don't think the shooting is bad, nor do i think Pippin is truly bad, there was a theory saying he was an assassin, and i didn't think of it at first but now i get it, he is there to kill the traitor, why? Because he is no longer of use to the mallers, i think that when Burt realized "the nest" was not going respond, he ran as quickly as they could back to the tower, seeing the situation, i think it was Burt who shot. like i said the pistol was suppressed and last i checked, they only have one, unless K.C infers that when they went back to Burt's shop, he had more suppressors. Also if that is not true, i think that they had more then on suppressor, and Steven shot Pippin knowing why he was there and who sent him.

I dont know if anyone said this didnt read all 16 pages but maybe:

1.Its victor he may have the silenced berreta that burt and saul cant find
2.I was thinking durai because they havent mentioned where he is, but how would he get in.
3.Maybe some random person sent to kill pippen didnt know hope was blind gatted her down to (if thats what it was)
4.The rat killed pippin so as not to get his cover blown

Did the shooter run away afterwards? i thought i heard footsteps

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Originally Posted by cupcakezombie

Can anyone fill in the Datu timeline? I feel like we are missing something there. He was reported to be on the roof, downstairs getting tools, and then supposed to be on the road. If they were on the road, how long do we think they had been out? Is it just that Michael forgot where he was when he sent Steven up to find him? I am re-listening now myself, so will probably have the answer in a few, but think that it is worth putting here.
Thanks

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I'm pretty certain that the shooting incident took place awhile after Datu and Kalani had already left. Remember, things don't always occur in chronological order, and the pauses between "segments" could indicate several hours instead of the few seconds that we get. I think it's safe to say Datu and Kalani are in the clear, since the radio trouble with the tower was noticed AFTER D & K told Burt they were on their way.