Oh Happy Days!

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Originally Posted by Osiris

You're making a lot of assumptions. If you consider the only force of 'good' to be the residents of the tower, then yes you logic works. If you consider that everyone is simply trying to stay alive the only way they can, then your logic falls apart. Your sense of right and wrong is distorted through the lens of a one-sided storyline. I feel for you, bro. I feel for you. The residents stole from the mallers. There was a plan for that tanker from the beginning and that plan was quite clearly to destroy as many of the biters as they could. The residents fired the first shot and the mallers reacted accordingly. This isn't rocket science, it's just the nature of the world that the story is being told in.

So Pegs did wrong and she should be dealt with like the dog she is.

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But by your own logic of doing what is right by them, Pegs was defending herself from an act of aggression. Perspective works in both directions. Yes, the Tower committed the first act, but the Mallers escalated the conflict, and they paid the price for it.

And technically, Durai fired the first shots of the war. He was just aiming at cameras. Had the Tower put armed guards on the balconies and they were trained right, they would have fired on the Mallers as soon as they heard the shots.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

But by your own logic of doing what is right by them, Pegs was defending herself from an act of aggression. Perspective works in both directions. Yes, the Tower committed the first act, but the Mallers escalated the conflict, and they paid the price for it.

And technically, Durai fired the first shots of the war. He was just aiming at cameras. Had the Tower put armed guards on the balconies and they were trained right, they would have fired on the Mallers as soon as they heard the shots.

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WRONG. Burt fired the first shot [first introduction of Scratch and Latch, showing the two that there was only way of reasoning with the residents: with force] of the conflict between forces. This is canon and cannot be disputed. Pegs may have been defending herself from an act of aggression, but that act would likely have never taken place had the tanker not been stolen from the mallers in the first place. Either side of the coin you flip to, murder is still murder. Yes, I am clearly ignoring everything Scratch has done in the past. Fanboys do that. Deal.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

WRONG. Burt fired the first shot [first introduction of Scratch and Latch, showing the two that there was only way of reasoning with the residents: with force] of the conflict between forces. This is canon and cannot be disputed. Pegs may have been defending herself from an act of aggression, but that act would likely have never taken place had the tanker not been stolen from the mallers in the first place. Either side of the coin you flip to, murder is still murder. Yes, I am clearly ignoring everything Scratch has done in the past. Fanboys do that. Deal.

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I said the War. Not the overall conflict. Burt fired the first shot in the overall conflict between the Tower and the Mallers. The War is accepted as the contents of Chapter 12. Hence why the chapter is called "The War."

The stolen property is what caused the conflict, not Burt's dead eye shot on the mirror. And the shot was taken only after an acceptable trade could not be established for the release of the Tanker. Had Burt killed Latch or Scratch and leaving the other alive to go back to the Mallers would fulfill your scenario of Burt's shot causing the escalation by using only force. Remember, the only part of this story that Durai knows is the theft because Scratch lied to him and pinned it on Charlie. The only thing that matters to Durai (other than wanting the Tower to live in) is the theft.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I said the War. Not the overall conflict. Burt fired the first shot in the overall conflict between the Tower and the Mallers. The War is accepted as the contents of Chapter 12. Hence why the chapter is called "The War."

The stolen property is what caused the conflict, not Burt's dead eye shot on the mirror. And the shot was taken only after an acceptable trade could not be established for the release of the Tanker. Had Burt killed Latch or Scratch and leaving the other alive to go back to the Mallers would fulfill your scenario of Burt's shot causing the escalation by using only force. Remember, the only part of this story that Durai knows is the theft because Scratch lied to him and pinned it on Charlie. The only thing that matters to Durai (other than wanting the Tower to live in) is the theft.

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I stopped reading after you began arguing semantics. The cause of the war is the theft of the tanker. Fact. The first aggressively hostile move is Burt shooting at the mirror. The first shot of the 'war' was taken from the tower. Let's have more semantic arguments.... Bill shot a mirror belonging to the mallers. The mallers shot a few cameras belonging to the tower. Blah blah blah, things happened, tempers flared and Pegs shot a man in cold blood. Whether or not that guy was in the wrong is so massively debatable that it isn't worth arguing any further than this. Facts are facts. The first hostile activity was a direct result of Burt, Saul and whatsername stealing the tanker. Spin it any way you feel like from that point, but you're not going to argue beyond the facts. Even though it's lots of fun.







Scratch4Life

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Originally Posted by Osiris

I stopped reading after you began arguing semantics.

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So I'll do the same and stop reading your post when you start arguing semantics.

Now when you go back and re-read my post like you should have in the first place, I said the first act of the conflict was the Tower stealing the tanker. But since you insist on continuing to argue, I'll turn this on your girl Scratch and say that the first aggressively hostile act was Scratch pointing a gun at Lizzy and claiming she'll shoot her. Facts are facts. She's the first person to act out of hostility. These are facts that can't be debated.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

So I'll do the same and stop reading your post when you start arguing semantics.

Now when you go back and re-read my post like you should have in the first place, I said the first act of the conflict was the Tower stealing the tanker. But since you insist on continuing to argue, I'll turn this on your girl Scratch and say that the first aggressively hostile act was Scratch pointing a gun at Lizzy and claiming she'll shoot her. Facts are facts. She's the first person to act out of hostility. These are facts that can't be debated.

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Lol. You're such an ass and that's why I <3 you. I DID read your post and like I said yadda yadda yadda, things happened. The first shot fired in an open act of aggression was Burt. Scratch pointed an empty gun at Lizzy. Why wouldn't Scratch react that way though? Their shit had just been jacked and the thieves made aggressive moves towards them when confronted. It's one of those 'who did what first' arguments and we know the root cause of all of it. The theft of the tanker which had been earmarked and needed for a greater purpose. One that would have been a benefit to both sides. So... the first hostile act would be consider the trespassing and theft on behalf of the tower residents. This is the only fact that cannot be disputed in this round of arguments. Had the residents not stolen that tanker, Scratch and Latch would have never confronted Saul, Burt and Lizzy. Burt would have never fired a shot in a show-off 'don't fuck with the best' move, Saul would have never had reason to follow Scratch and Latch. Scratch would have never seen him spying on her and taken that as an act of hostility, chased his candy ass down and eventually ended up knocking on the front door of the tower. Should we go back further?

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Originally Posted by Osiris

Lol. You're such an ass and that's why I <3 you. I DID read your post and like I said yadda yadda yadda, things happened. The first shot fired in an open act of aggression was Burt. Scratch pointed an empty gun at Lizzy. Why wouldn't Scratch react that way though? Their shit had just been jacked and the thieves made aggressive moves towards them when confronted. It's one of those 'who did what first' arguments and we know the root cause of all of it. The theft of the tanker which had been earmarked and needed for a greater purpose. One that would have been a benefit to both sides. So... the first hostile act would be consider the trespassing and theft on behalf of the tower residents. This is the only fact that cannot be disputed in this round of arguments. Had the residents not stolen that tanker, Scratch and Latch would have never confronted Saul, Burt and Lizzy. Burt would have never fired a shot in a show-off 'don't fuck with the best' move, Saul would have never had reason to follow Scratch and Latch. Scratch would have never seen him spying on her and taken that as an act of hostility, chased his candy ass down and eventually ended up knocking on the front door of the tower. Should we go back further?

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I <3 sparring with you and I knew you had to have read the whole thing :)

We could go back further and argue the semantics of stealing something while ignorant of ownership and territory but that would just bring us back to pretty much where we are now...and it would take about 3 days.

I understand the rally cry against the lack of gray area some people view the Mallers (THEY ARE BAD BAD PEOPLE WHO NEED TO BE HURT SEVERELY!), I'm not one of them. I've argued the Maller perspective up and down the forum because it's boring to have antagonists who are purely bad and nothing else. I agree the stolen tanker is the issue that started it all, I just personally think it's Scratch who escalated it beyond the initial problem.

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Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I <3 sparring with you and I knew you had to have read the whole thing :)

We could go back further and argue the semantics of stealing something while ignorant of ownership and territory but that would just bring us back to pretty much where we are now...and it would take about 3 days.

I understand the rally cry against the lack of gray area some people view the Mallers (THEY ARE BAD BAD PEOPLE WHO NEED TO BE HURT SEVERELY!), I'm not one of them. I've argued the Maller perspective up and down the forum because it's boring to have antagonists who are purely bad and nothing else. I agree the stolen tanker is the issue that started it all, I just personally think it's Scratch who escalated it beyond the initial problem.

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I agree to disagree, sir. Scratch may have served as catalyst for the 'War' but I think the overall reluctance and aggressive posturing that Michael took with Durai was the downfall of the tower. There may have not been an amicable solution to the situation, but... hindsight is 20/20 right?

For the record, I hated Latch.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

I agree to disagree, sir. Scratch may have served as catalyst for the 'War' but I think the overall reluctance and aggressive posturing that Michael took with Durai was the downfall of the tower. There may have not been an amicable solution to the situation, but... hindsight is 20/20 right?

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Agreed. I would really liked to have seen how that situation would have been resolved if Pegs was able to continue to negotiate. Durai seemed to soften up a touch to her...now whether that be a tactic or legit...guess we'll never know...oh but no...Some asshat had to shoot off a couple of shots and ruin our fun.