Does Kalani get a pass?

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Originally Posted by shiroidenkou1994

Kalani betrayed the Tower. For that, I will never give him a pass. Hannah's fate was sealed the moment the Mallers took her away. That is no excuse. And even if it was, the better thing to do would've been to tell the Tower (or the first group) about what was going on, and prepare them to fight back. Instead, he took the chickenshit way out and people got killed.

As for being the saviour of the Tower, I suppose that's true. If Kalani had never come along, and IF the Mallers didn't kill them all (that's a really big if.), then they would have lasted maybe a year, maybe two. They would have petered out , losing one here, one there to the zombies or diseases or in minor skirmishes with the Mallers. The apartment building was never a viable long-term solution. Plus, he taught Pegs to fly and (presumably) gave his life in defense of the Tower. That's a good thing, so he gets a big 'thumbs up' for that.

Still, it's like if an emergency surgeon who had saved hundreds of lives suddenly murdered someone. Would you give the surgeon a pass for the murder? I wouldn't.

He did good things, and he did bad things. They don't cancel out, they're just separate things entirely. That's my take on this whole Kalani thing.

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I'll grant that while we--as outsiders looking in--may have known that Hannah was going to end up taking a dirt nap, it wouldn't have been possible for Kalani to ascertain that he had lost her for good. Even if the thought had crossed his mind, the thought of getting her back trumps all else. I think it's necessary to take knowledge through stunted omniscience out of the equation and look at it from a far more limited perspective: Dad's. If you do that, it's impossible to think you could simply write her off as dead and not bother following the kidnapper's demands to get her back.

Also, the only person that Kalani technically murdered was Pippin, the guy there to flip the tables on Kalani, sell him out and take over the mission. The rest is collateral damage. That said, I flip your last statement. Would you give a pass to someone who murdered one piece of shit and saved hundreds of lives afterwards?

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Originally Posted by shiroidenkou1994

Kalani betrayed the Tower. For that, I will never give him a pass. Hannah's fate was sealed the moment the Mallers took her away. That is no excuse. And even if it was, the better thing to do would've been to tell the Tower (or the first group) about what was going on, and prepare them to fight back. Instead, he took the chickenshit way out and people got killed.
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I'll ask you.. What was Kalani suppose to do ? Write off his daughter when he left her behind in the hands of the Mallers?

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Originally Posted by yarri

I'll ask you.. What was Kalani suppose to do ? Write off his daughter when he left her behind in the hands of the Mallers?

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In answer to your question, I refer you to my original post: "the better thing to do would've been to tell the Tower (or the first group) about what was going on, and prepare them to fight back." He could have set up the Mallers for an ambush, made them think everyone would be unprepared, and given 'em hell when they arrived. If he wanted Hannah back, that would have been a smarter, more ethical way to achieve that goal.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

Would you give a pass to someone who murdered one piece of shit and saved hundreds of lives afterwards?

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Mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't save a hundred lives after he killed Pippin. Everyone that was in the Tower and is dead now, he and Bill are 100% responsible for. The ENTIRE situation as it stands goes all the way back to Kalani betraying everyone in the Tower. Saul and Victor wouldn't be seperated, Angel and Burt wouldn't have fallen off the tower via the rope, and Fort Irwin would be an upcoming trip rather than a possible final destination for everyone on the helo with Pegs. Everything is Kalanis fault, his daughter was dead the second they took her away from him. I understand his desire to get his daughter back, the fact remains that it never would have happened. He betrayed and killed everyone in the Tower because of his extremely foolish and misplaced hope they would uphold their end of the deal. They were a bunch of murderers, thieves, and backstabbers. Only a fool would believe them.

It's amazing how many people say they'd do anything to keep their child alive. This has no relation to Kalani's situation. Anyone with any sense can see that the second that the Mallers took her away, she was already dead. He had absolutely ZERO chance of saving her life, she was as good as dead. That's the simple fact of life in the We're Alive universe. No matter who he betrayed, who he killed, or what he did she was already dead.

Double post.

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Originally Posted by Ray

Mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't save a hundred lives after he killed Pippin. Everyone that was in the Tower and is dead now, he and Bill are 100% responsible for. The ENTIRE situation as it stands goes all the way back to Kalani betraying everyone in the Tower. Saul and Victor wouldn't be seperated, Angel and Burt wouldn't have fallen off the tower via the rope, and Fort Irwin would be an upcoming trip rather than a possible final destination for everyone on the helo with Pegs. Everything is Kalanis fault, his daughter was dead the second they took her away from him. I understand his desire to get his daughter back, the fact remains that it never would have happened. He betrayed and killed everyone in the Tower because of his extremely foolish and misplaced hope they would uphold their end of the deal. They were a bunch of murderers, thieves, and backstabbers. Only a fool would believe them.

It's amazing how many people say they'd do anything to keep their child alive. This has no relation to Kalani's situation. Anyone with any sense can see that the second that the Mallers took her away, she was already dead. He had absolutely ZERO chance of saving her life, she was as good as dead. That's the simple fact of life in the We're Alive universe. No matter who he betrayed, who he killed, or what he did she was already dead.

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You're completely wrong to say the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Redemption is redemption. Again--and this is important so please pay attention--the only reason you believe that anyone with any sense could see that Hannah was dead the moment she was taken (which has not been confirmed, so you could be very wrong) is because you are privy to knowledge that Kalani was not. If you fail to recognize that your arguments will be based on nothing more than your personal feelings toward the characters and not at all based on divorced, logical examination of the facts in the manner that they are being presented--not to us--to the characters within the confines of the singular perspective of each character in the moment. Simply saying that it is true does not make it so.

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Originally Posted by Ray

Mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't save a hundred lives after he killed Pippin. Everyone that was in the Tower and is dead now, he and Bill are 100% responsible for. The ENTIRE situation as it stands goes all the way back to Kalani betraying everyone in the Tower. Saul and Victor wouldn't be seperated, Angel and Burt wouldn't have fallen off the tower via the rope, and Fort Irwin would be an upcoming trip rather than a possible final destination for everyone on the helo with Pegs. Everything is Kalanis fault, his daughter was dead the second they took her away from him. I understand his desire to get his daughter back, the fact remains that it never would have happened. He betrayed and killed everyone in the Tower because of his extremely foolish and misplaced hope they would uphold their end of the deal. They were a bunch of murderers, thieves, and backstabbers. Only a fool would believe them.

It's amazing how many people say they'd do anything to keep their child alive. This has no relation to Kalani's situation. Anyone with any sense can see that the second that the Mallers took her away, she was already dead. He had absolutely ZERO chance of saving her life, she was as good as dead. That's the simple fact of life in the We're Alive universe. No matter who he betrayed, who he killed, or what he did she was already dead.

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Change the word fool to father.. Only a father would believe them. Can you sit there and tell us that if she were your flesh and blood you would have walked away from her? Cause you knew she was in the hands of thieves and murders? She wasn't worth your time to do anything you could to save her?

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Originally Posted by Osiris

You're completely wrong to say the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Redemption is redemption. Again--and this is important so please pay attention--the only reason you believe that anyone with any sense could see that Hannah was dead the moment she was taken (which has not been confirmed, so you could be very wrong) is because you are privy to knowledge that Kalani was not. If you fail to recognize that your arguments will be based on nothing more than your personal feelings toward the characters and not at all based on divorced, logical examination of the facts in the manner that they are being presented--not to us--to the characters within the confines of the singular perspective of each character in the moment. Simply saying that it is true does not make it so.

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Osiris is 100% right in this situation.

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Originally Posted by Osiris

You're completely wrong to say the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Redemption is redemption. Again--and this is important so please pay attention--the only reason you believe that anyone with any sense could see that Hannah was dead the moment she was taken (which has not been confirmed, so you could be very wrong) is because you are privy to knowledge that Kalani was not. If you fail to recognize that your arguments will be based on nothing more than your personal feelings toward the characters and not at all based on divorced, logical examination of the facts in the manner that they are being presented--not to us--to the characters within the confines of the singular perspective of each character in the moment. Simply saying that it is true does not make it so.

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Could you please use a legible color for your drivel? It's extremely hard to read what you write. "Divorced, logical examination of the facts" are exactly what I'm going off of. The Mallers (before he knew that's what the other group referred to them as) basically kidnapped him, his daughter and Pippin. They wouldn't release him or his daughter unless he spied on the Tower inhabitants. It's that simple. Anyone with any sense would know that getting roped in with the group that were the Mallers was a losing battle. They kidnapped/kept his daughter against both of their wishes and in exchange for his daughters safety they wanted him to basically infiltrate and effectively destroy the group at the tower with CJ. They told him to go gather information, and when they got overrun they pretty much left him to die. "Better start runnin'" is what Scratch told him. To them, he wasn't worth the trouble of saving since their building was effectively ruined and everyone was at the very high possibility of being killed by the zombies and the guy with the tats. He pleaded with them to tell him how his daughter was when he contacted them from the second Tower. No answer. Yes, the concepts are mutually exclusive. He at no time was looking out for anyone but himself, and foolishly, his daughter. Nothing up to that point gave him any logical indication that his work would result in the release of his daughter, they had already left him to die at the first tower he was in. They used the possibility of getting his daughter back to further manipulate him and the Mallers never told her of her condition or location. Do I believe she was dead before that girl got shot at the golf course? No. I believe that was her at the golf course. What I meant was that she was effectively dead as soon as they were separated. He already knew they were seriously dangerous people as soon as they got back to their strip mall. He had already seen how they treated other people. Only an idiot would think they were any different and that they would uphold their end of the deal. As revealed in his journal they continued to keep him in the dark about his daughter. She was effectively dead by then, not literally. The Mallers gave him ZERO indication that she was alive and that she would be released, and even sent Pippin in to check on him and the situation at the Tower. That's why he murdered Pippin to cover his tracks.

They have nothing to lose by keeping or not keeping her around, Kalani had everything to lose by not doing what they said. Without any evidence she was safe, without any logical reason to believe she would be, he insulted, betrayed and undermined their efforts to escape the wrath of the Mallers and caused the deaths and destruction of the Tower. The Mallers simply attacked them because Pegs shot Latch in self defense. He enabled and encouraged their deaths. It's as simple as that. Those are the facts. I'm tired of your "superior" act and condescending tone. NOTHING the Mallers did gave any indication that they would uphold their end of the deal and they didn't. Anyone that has any sense knows that, in that situation or not. I knew the second it was revealed in his journal that they kept her in exchange for his spying, she was as good as dead. Only a hopeful fool would have believed otherwise. As someone else said, he would have had a better and more reasonable chance had he teamed up with the Tower residents and gone after them to try and save her. He said as much when he talked about getting the helos up and running, he wanted to try and use them to possibly save her. Too little, too late. The Tower residents were willing to attack the Mallers to get back Lizzy, maybe they would have for his daughter as well. Kill two birds with one stone. I know that's nothing more than supposition, but they had demonstrated that they were willing to attack them to get someone back. Kalani is responsible for every death in the Tower since he got there, his own journal tells the story of his betrayal. Those are the facts, not my wishful thinking or my opinion of the man as the character Kalani. Trying to protect his kid was completely stupid and irrational. They were never going to let her go and anyone with any sense knows that. Whether you choose to accept reality or dismiss it like he did doesn't matter, she was never going to make it out of their control alive, especially while he's off running around doing their dirty work and had no way to confirm that she was still alive.

Yes, that question you posed versus what this situation is are mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't kill one dirtbag and then save hundreds. He killed about 25 people to save someone that was effectively dead given who she was captured by and he died in the process without getting anything set right. Your hypothetical situation and this one are absolutely opposite one another. Kalani wasn't in it to save hundreds, he was in it to save one in a situation where she was never going to be saved. If I were him, I'd have recruited everyone I know to go after them and kill as many as possible trying to save her. No one in the Tower was standing in his way and had he tried, they most likely would have stood with him. Instead he chose to betray them and got what he deserved. He cannot be forgiven for doing something so evil. He only stopped the tanker in the end out of guilt, not because he cared for anyone in the Tower. He knew his efforts were for nothing and had no reason to live. Hell, Angel saved his life at least twice and he still talked bad about him.

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Originally Posted by yarri

Change the word fool to father.. Only a father would believe them. Can you sit there and tell us that if she were your flesh and blood you would have walked away from her? Cause you knew she was in the hands of thieves and murders? She wasn't worth your time to do anything you could to save her?

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Emotional outbursts will get you nowhere in this with me, "think of the children" is the battle cry of the ignorant and emotionally unstable. I've NEVER said I would leave her to die (you and others have put these words in my mouth, please kindly stop that), I said that Kalani should have known that she was effectively dead as soon as he agreed to spy for them. They never let him talk to her, they never confirmed she was okay, and they were a group of ruthless murderers. What I would have done is gotten the Tower residents to help me attack and kill the Mallers and attempt to get her back. Via a trap, an ambush, whatever. But stupidly running around stabbing people in the back and pleading like a child over the radio got him what? Nothing. His daughter is dead, he is dead and so are the vast majority of the Tower residents. Had he at least tried to get her back, especially since he knew the Tower guys had grenades, claymores, a .50 cal machine gun, and trained Army infantry in his group, they would have had a very good chance of taking them over. Sitting around crying about it and wishing evil people would do the right thing is as stupid as it is deadly. I don't fault him for wanting to get his kid back, I fault him for stupidly going about it the way he did, not realizing the facts about his situation and doing effectively exactly the wrong things to get her back. He did nothing to get her back. Literally. He played along with the game a vicious group of murderers wanted him to and he got what was always coming to him.

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Originally Posted by yarri

Osiris is 100% right in this situation.

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No he is not. Everything I've argued with was what the situation was as Kalani saw it. He was with a group of criminals. They were murderers, they kidnapped his daughter and never let him talk to her or confirm that she was even alive the entire time he was off running around. They left him to die at least once. The people that saved him at the risk of their own lives, he viciously and without remorse betrayed and insulted them multiple times. He commented on how they didn't have their shit together like the last place he had been. (The same place that was attacked by Ink and everyone save four were killed. At the Tower? One. Less fortified, less security in place and they came out smelling like a rose.) Asshole. There is no other word for him. Despite them saving his life, he had nothing but bad things to say about them, which he wrote down and made sure they knew about. He KNEW he was wrong, he KNEW he had done the wrong things, he made damn sure they couldn't defend themselves from the same people threatening to kill his daughter and tried to repent for them in the end by revealing what he'd done. He had seen what the Mallers were capable of from the very second he met them. He knew damn well these people were psychotic and dangerous. He did literally nothing to save his daughter other than believe the people that kidnapped her, murdered other people and left him to die at least once were going to uphold their promise. Only an idiot would believe that was even remotely sane and he got a lot of people killed because of it. Father or no father, daughter or no daughter he was a moron and got what was coming to him. It's a shame that he got a lot of good people killed along the way. Desire to save your children isn't an excuse to commit evil and hateful acts, especially when the situation is already fucked up from the start. There was absolutely no way the Mallers were ever going to keep her safe, if he didn't realize that then he's an idiot and so would anyone else be with that mentality (in the We're Alive universe, not here. I realize emotions make people do crazy things but it's no excuse in this case). I respect him for wanting his daughter safe, but the way he went about it doesn't relieve him of his sins. He can never be forgiven for what he did and neither should anyone else that did what he did.

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Originally Posted by Ray

Emotional outbursts will get you nowhere in this with me. I've NEVER said I would leave her to die, I said that Kalani should have known that she was effectively dead as soon as he agreed to spy for them. They never let him talk to her, they never confirmed she was okay, and they were a group of ruthless murderers. What I would have done is gotten the Tower residents to help me attack and kill the Mallers and attempt to get her back. Via a trap, an ambush, whatever. But stupidly running around stabbing people in the back and pleading like a child over the radio got him what? Nothing. His daughter is dead, he is dead and so are the vast majority of the Tower residents. Had he at least tried to get her back, especially since he knew the Tower guys had grenades, claymores, a .50 cal machine gun, and trained Army infantry in his group, they would have had a very good chance of taking them over. Sitting around crying about it and wishing evil people would do the right thing is as stupid as it is deadly. I don't fault him for wanting to get his kid back, I fault him for stupidly going about it the way he did, not realizing the facts about his situation and doing effectively exactly the wrong things to get her back. He did nothing to get her back. Literally. He played along with the game a vicious group of murderers wanted him to and he got what was always coming to him.

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Don't read emotion into textual posts. I asked you this question before apparently you missed it. In this situation Kalani didn't know these "tower" folks. Didn't know what they were able to do, or would do for someone like him. They were ill organized stealing from each other and lying to each other. To his eyes they were ineffective and doomed to failure and where did he know they had claymores, grenades and a .50 cal machine gun? Was that before or after the attack on the tower? Michael, Saul and Angel (three "trained" military infantry vs oh what 100 armed murders and thieves.. Now doesn't that sound like a sound and rational battle plan. 3 vs 100 I would say that would be a tad over whelming odds I think they call that in Vegas a suckers bet)

Kalani wasn't a super hero. He was a fat old Hawaiian guy that wanted nothing more then to have the one person he loved his daughter safe. You're assuming he had some prior knowledge or ability to reason out that his daughter was dead. He acted as a human being would.. flawed and with emotion. Like any other parent would faced with this situation.