Chapter 20 Part 3 Discussion

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Originally Posted by tillvictory

Rape and gang rape are both things that actually happen in the real world every day and many, many, many people survive it and go on to have healthy, happy, productive lives.

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And many don't. Many end up requiring years of therapy to deal with the effects. Some have day dreams about stepping out in front of dump trucks at red lights. Some push it down and never think about it again. Some take razors to their arms and legs on a daily basis. Some pay it forward by sexually abusing children they have. Just because some people are able to cope better than others doesn't mean that everyone copes the same.

You seem to have strong feelings about the subject, perhaps Saul has strong feelings about it as well.

:)

"If they got raped they're better off dead," is the least supportive thing you could possibly say about a survivor, because it completely excludes any potential for them to be okay afterwards when that potential absolutely exists. So regardless of how strong his feelings are, it's still a fucked up thing to say.

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Originally Posted by tillvictory

"If they got raped they're better off dead," is the least supportive thing you could possibly say about a survivor, because it completely excludes any potential for them to be okay afterwards when that potential absolutely exists. So regardless of how strong his feelings are, it's still a fucked up thing to say.

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Are you sure he said she was better off dead? :)

"At least we know those things didn't get her." "No, this is worse!"

In the context of Burt trying to make him feel better, we can deduce that what he meant was something like: "At least we know she wasn't painfully dismembered by a pack of zombies while conscious, and you don't have to live in fear that you will turn a corner and need to shoot the woman you love in the face before she eats you." To which Saul responded: "No, this is worse."

We could argue that "At least those things didn't get her" means "at least those things didn't drag her away to the stadium, in which case we would know exactly where she is and have a good idea of how to rescue her, because we've done that before." but I don't think that is what he would say to try to console Saul in that moment.

The idea that if you have been raped you are going to struggle with suicide, self harm, and a potential to sexually abuse others for the rest of your life is exactly the mindset that drives survivors to do terrible things to themselves - the feeling that the experience has damaged them forever, and they will never be happy or healthy or safe ever again.

Furthermore, some people also suffer PTSD from going to war and experiencing the kind of violence that everyone in the tower has been exposed to for the entire show... People with PTSD also struggle with suicide and self harm and harming the people around them. Since Saul was in the military and went overseas I'm sure he's aware of that, if he hasn't known someone who went through it.

I'm not saying he's an awful person. He was upset. Anyone can say or think terrible things when they're upset. It doesn't make you a bad person. And I'm pretty sure we can assume that he didn't mean it; if he found her alive and raped he wouldn't want to kill her and put her out of her misery.

But it was still a fucked up thing to say.

Honestly, what is worse than knowing that the woman you love is being raped and tortured by the people who took her, and there is nothing you can do about it? I can't really think of anything worse than that.

Second, I'd like to hear this bit where Burt tells Saul "At least we know those things didn't get her." Are you able to provide a time code for the portion of the episode you are referencing?

Finally, I don't think that ignoring the fact that people have different coping mechanisms does not change the effects. I know some very well-balanced, even-tempered, intelligent people that have experienced unbelievably horrid after-effects due to rapes. To tell them it's simply a matter of their attitude towards the event would be asinine. Hey, rape isn't a big deal. It's all in your head. Get over it. Sorry, but that's beyond insensitive, and it's exactly what you're saying. PTSD has more factors than psychological at its root. You think you can control your body's output of chemicals and hormones? You can control the production and subsequent release of adrenaline? You must be some sort of Zen master the likes of which nobody could ever imagine. It isn't possible. They are involuntary responses to stimuli. You can't control them. When your flooded with them your body responds in the way that it is built.

Sure, some people can get past some things. Some people can deal with traumas easier than others. Some people cannot. It has nothing to do with perpetuation the idea that if you get raped you'll struggle with suicide, self-harm, etc. In fact, those are words I never said, nor was there any intent to convey that idea. What I said is "some people." Please don't put words in my mouth.

As for the PTSD argument as it pertains to Saul or the rest of the tower residents, what difference does that make? Just because he knows about it, doesn't change his response to it. It changes what you believe his response should be. You know you're going to get hooked on heroin if you use it, yet we still have junkies. I've known people who have committed suicide because they were sexually abused. I know a girl who burns her legs with a curling iron because her father raped her when she was 15 years old--that was 22 years ago, she burns herself every day. So you tell me. Is that because someone told her, "You're never going to be ok if this ever happens to you" or is it because she's simply unable to cope with it? She's in therapy, she understands PTSD, so throw your doctorate in clinical psychology on the table, and tell me how exactly she should cope with that?

Not everyone will cope the same, simply based on the opinion that it's all in their head. Taking it to the place you have seems a little callous.

:)

tillvictory, I would like you to meet Osiris.

Speaking of putting words in other people's mouths: I never said that rape is not a big deal, and I never said that when you know a survivor having trouble coping you should tell them to get over it.

RECAP:

I said that I thought it was fucked up for Saul to say Lizzy getting raped was worse than her dying. (Chapter 20 Part 3 of 3- 14:17. I guess I remembered it wrong but the dialogue is "she could get bitten or attacked by some monster, but this is worse, Burt, this is way worse.")

Your response was that you agree; it would be better if she died because she wouldn't have to live with those memories forever.

My response was that just because you have been raped doesn't mean that you are going to be traumatized for the rest of your life and that a lot of people survive and recover and are happy, healthy individuals.

Your response was that other people don't.

I brought up PTSD to make the point that these people have already gone through horrific things that already put them at risk for the same things you brought up to support the claim that Lizzy is better off dead than raped.

Now you say you weren't saying that everyone who gets raped is going to struggle with suicide and self-harm forever, but you did say that you agree with Saul's sentiment that she would be better off dead... and if you believe that there is potential for her to be okay afterwards then why would you have said that?

That is all I'm saying. That for Saul to say it's worse for Lizzy to get raped than to die is fucked up, because she could get raped and be fine. Maybe she wouldn't be fine for a long time, or maybe ever (although that is unlikely). But she would be alive and the potential for her to be okay would exist. I am well aware of how psychological trauma affects people and that things like PTSD and depression cannot just be willed away or dealt with by "getting over it", but I am also well aware that they can be treated and worked through. In fact, the vast majority of people who experience sexual assault go on to have healthy, happy, productive lives - like I said in the very beginning. So the idea that it's better for someone to die than get raped... really is... fucked up.

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Originally Posted by IamPaul

tillvictory, I would like you to meet Osiris.

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Your words are so hurtful. :(

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Originally Posted by tillvictory

Speaking of putting words in other people's mouths: I never said that rape is not a big deal, and I never said that when you know a survivor having trouble coping you should tell them to get over it.

RECAP:

I said that I thought it was fucked up for Saul to say Lizzy getting raped was worse than her dying. (Chapter 20 Part 3 of 3- 14:17. I guess I remembered it wrong but the dialogue is "she could get bitten or attacked by some monster, but this is worse, Burt, this is way worse.")

Your response was that you agree; it would be better if she died because she wouldn't have to live with those memories forever.

My response was that just because you have been raped doesn't mean that you are going to be traumatized for the rest of your life and that a lot of people survive and recover and are happy, healthy individuals.

Your response was that other people don't.

I brought up PTSD to make the point that these people have already gone through horrific things that already put them at risk for the same things you brought up to support the claim that Lizzy is better off dead than raped.

Now you say you weren't saying that everyone who gets raped is going to struggle with suicide and self-harm forever, but you did say that you agree with Saul's sentiment that she would be better off dead... and if you believe that there is potential for her to be okay afterwards then why would you have said that?

That is all I'm saying. That for Saul to say it's worse for Lizzy to get raped than to die is fucked up, because she could get raped and be fine. Maybe she wouldn't be fine for a long time, or maybe ever (although that is unlikely). But she would be alive and the potential for her to be okay would exist. I am well aware of how psychological trauma affects people and that things like PTSD and depression cannot just be willed away or dealt with by "getting over it", but I am also well aware that they can be treated and worked through. In fact, the vast majority of people who experience sexual assault go on to have healthy, happy, productive lives - like I said in the very beginning. So the idea that it's better for someone to die than get raped... really is... fucked up.

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Cool recap.