You have strange friends ... You should ... Wait! Did you refer to ME??? Oh, Lord! What did I do to you???Quote:
Originally Posted by YetAnotherBloodyCheek
All the best!
Liam
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You have strange friends ... You should ... Wait! Did you refer to ME??? Oh, Lord! What did I do to you???Quote:
Originally Posted by YetAnotherBloodyCheek
All the best!
Liam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
saul was a jew who attained roman citizenship.
Chaplains marry people - perhaps thats why Pegs name doesn't show up on the list of 1200 people coming in from boulder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kc
My first thought is that Religeon plays a small part because pacifists would be overrun because there is no negotiating or surrendering to a Zombie. The obvious conclusion is that only survivalist & selfish people are likely to survive .Like Soldiers , Layers, criminals, prison guards????
BUT That is not what happened. Some of the survivors were: Florist, chef, Doctors, old Ham radio enthusiast, Salesman, Maintenance man, Fat pilot, Nerd, Reserve Solders
The LA crew HAS to wonder how they were lucky enough to survive when people far more capable died. If you realize that only pure luck kept you alive the fear of your luck running out would be unbearable! Believing that a God is protecting you could give you enough hope to keep you sane.
Maybe this means more people are going to crack under the pressure.
I don't think anyone would call the religious fundamentalists in the midwest or south as pacifists
All Humans, or just different humans?Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamKerrington
Many Fundamentalists couldn't be considered Pacifists, Islamic, Jewish... As a guy raised on the "Bible and the Gun" theory, religious people as pacifists is the last thing that came to my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luna Guardian
Zombies are definately human. They just act inhuman. They are already dead humans according to some theories. All these factors help remove the guilt of wanton destruction of thier race and making it so you can enjoy WA without wondering what kind of horrible person am I? You wouldn't need to try overly hard to dehumanize them if you forced to kill them. I imagine in real life, if Zday were to come, once the adrenalin stopped, and you had a moment to think about it, there would be some complicated feelings to contend with.
Is it moral to kill them? Don't most moral systems allow for self preservation? Should you forgive them? I can only speak for the things I know about... and I can imagine a faith that worships someone who rose from the dead could have some really interesting views on Zombies... and the subsequent healing of them. Just as you were once dead in your sin and the Lord forgave you and brought you back to truth and the life, so must you do with these former Zombies. Totally can see it. I wish I had time, cause I would totally take a whack at fan fic dedicated to encorperating religious zealots, whack jobs, and your more normal Bible belt Christian. I'd also whack the westboro babtists.
I would like to highlight a different aspect. We have to take into account that most of the longterm life goals of the characters have become unsatisfiable / irrelevant. At least for the time being. Let's take a look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The hierarchy can be described as pyramid which is subdivided into five levels: (from base to top) physiological, safety, love/belonging, esteem, self-actualization. In order to ascend to pyramid to a higher level, the needs of the current level have to be met.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues_127
No matter what level each character could have been assigned at the start of the zombiecalypse, I guess it is safe to say that no one focuses on esteem and self-actualization. They want to live (physiological), to be safe and to be part of a group (love/belonging). How high is the actual chance, that our heroes would have become friends if the world had no gone downhill at nearly lightspeed? Remember what Michael said about Angel and Saul, he guessed that he would not have made friends with them before.
So what is the result? You might have to change / suppress / adapt some of your personal traits or moral standpoints to survive. Just because you do not want be alone, helpless and probably dead sooner or later. Naturally, your faith or socialization, whatever tells you to leave no one behind. But, like WA has told us more than once, it is sometimes better to start running, no matter how altruistic you might have been in the past.
Well said.
The clearest example that this was an issue was Colonel Kimmet's reference to military bases that were over-run because their commanders wouldn't authorize the use of force against the zombies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues_127
I personally try to live by the immortal words of Malcom Reynolds in Firefly. "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." It's like the Golden Rule, but with bullets.
"All kills whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the gun and the bullets (and also zombies)"?
Honestly, if Im living in a world where there are zombies trying to get me the last thing Im going to worry about is practacing my spritual beliefs. Im going to practace keeping my ass alive. I am not saying religon isnt important just during a crisis when dying in a serious risk, not a priority. and even though it is important to some characters in the story they seem to know that its not high on the list. Just my two cents
Another aspect: Would it not be necessary to modify the Christian liturgy after Z-Day? I mean, sacramental wine and bread are symbols for the blood and body of Christ. It has been a rite for centuries if not millennia. But would it not be eminently awkward to continue to celebrate the eucharist while the zombies used to feast on the living / dead?
I do not know whether it was intentional and indeed it could very easily just be my background pointing it out to me but I know I noticed a motif when I realized that Ink had made 12 little ones to follow him.
Still thinking about the significance of that!
Good thought. +RepQuote:
Originally Posted by Sammy D
Perhaps TOWTM has been preparing them to go forth and "make disciples"....
Something started to go very wrong on 05/08/2009 then...Quote:
Originally Posted by scbubba
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/phot...-2040-1014.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy D
Ever since #12 was discovered by Victor, I wanted to do a Last Supper-like painting of Ink & the Inklings. We have yet to see which one will fill the roll of Zudas.
I wonder if Randy might play that role.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
Quote:
Originally Posted by scbubba
What about Rob Halford from Judas Priest?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
http://hollywoodnose.com/images/net_...ob-halford.jpg
Sorry, a really bad joke.
This discussion has got me thinking more about Christian symbolism in the whole WA story. (not really the official topic of this thread, I guess. Oh well...)
So we have Ink and his 12 disciples with their ability to make "converts"
Character names: Michael (the arch angel), Angel (duh), Saul (famous name twice in the Bible)
Cain General Hospital: a name with some notoriety from the Bible (good discussion about it on the wiki page) and it's cross shape and decorations
Perhaps a twisted, macabre take on Holy Communion with the collection and perhaps consumption of the dead Zed bodies (jury is still out on this one, I think)
There are probably a few more I'm missing at the moment but I think it'll be interesting to see if there is some sort of thread that ties this in. Of course, this could all just come from being influenced in naming and numbers from Kc and have no real meaning in the story :hsugh:
These are great questions. I am wondering about how all of the big religions would try to explain what caused z-day and why the survivors had to endure so much pain. Besides, I guess that there would be so *minor* changes to the eucharist celebrations in the long term...Quote:
Originally Posted by scbubba
A bit of a stretch but:
Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Giants! Know what else are giant?AliensBehemoths!
Yeah, kind of a stretch. Really ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
BUT:
A stretch worth a) +1 Rep (need to wait until I have spread some more love elsewhere ... I think I'm gonna go crazy on the remastering-sub-section for the efforts by all volunteers ...) and b) the Nobel Price for the combined "forces" of Physics and Chemistry for having invented the newest latex-formula ...
Just as a quick throw-in:
http://www.zombiesarecoming.com/2011...-in-the-bible/
That's a pretty interesting article. Thanks for digging it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by YetAnotherBloodyCheek
I really like the first couple of comments on that page that talk about the use of a zombification weapon on a population by an enemy and how we're already in the end times with Zeds just around the corner....
One comment on there echoes something that came up in this thread earlier (too lazy to find it exactly):
Old testament theology wouldn't seem to have a problem with this, I think, as long as you were defending yourself against "evil doers" and repaid bad-for-bad and good-for-good.Quote:
we’d have to worry about being good and moral Christians while slaughtering zombies and trying to survive. That would be difficult to say the least.
It's the New Testament theology where this gets tricky. If the Zeds are "dead people reanimated by some biological or supernatural mechanism", then the killing for them holds no moral consequence for the Christian. That is, it's no more a sin to kill a Zed than it is to kill a marauding wolf.
If, on the other hand, Zeds are people who are not dead but are simply acting under the control of some agent (biological, chemical, supernatural, what have you), then there is a potential morale conundrum. I'm not a Biblical scholar to say the least, so I can't spout chapter and verse on the matter, but I know that there is a lot in Jesus' teachings about not perpetuating violence even if violence is being used against you. The non-violent protest of the American Civil Rights movement were born out of those teachings, for example.
But what we would be trying to determine after Z-day is how the concept of self-preservation at the cost of other human lives squares with the Gospel. The closest parallel I can see is the Christian member of a nation's armed forces. I know there has been a lot of writing on that topic in the past (and probably the present) but I haven't looked into recently. I'll see if I can find some of that and maybe see if it is relevant to this discussion...
Now, where was I...? Oh yes, I wonder if Randy has 30 pieces of silver with him?
JUDAS!!!!!! i mean, RANDY!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by scbubba
oh, sorry, got excited there. so, what you brought up here was an interesting point, christians in the military face a conundrum: killing in the context of their Christianity. let me start off by saying this, thou shalt not kill is not the most literal translation of that commandment from hebrew to english. the most literal translation is thou shalt not murder, and there can be a distinction made here that killing a man in defense of self and family is not the same as killing a man out of anger, or just because. people have a kind of natural moral barometer for these things, and most understand this difference. now, that's the old testament, on to the new testament. Jesus taught non-violence in spreading the gospel, and Paul really hammered this home in his letters to the different churches. coercion is never to be used in the perpetuation of the gospel, and in fact would be counter productive. this is why there can't be a proclaimed Christian nation, because that would require that some form of force would be employed in the defense and perpetuation of Christianity, which is against the principles of the gospel. now, that does not mean that there can't be a nation predominantly made up of Christians, since we clearly saw that in action in the founding of America. but now we come to the Christian in the armed forces. scripture forbids the use of force to spread the gospel, but it also says that Christians should obey and uphold the law of the land, as long as that law is not counter to Gods law. i interpret this as not only allowing for, but encouraging Christians in Law enforcement, despite the posibillity of violence against criminals, as a means of defending those who cannot defend themselves, and enforcing justice against those who violate the liberty of others. Christians are called to take care of the widows and orphans and the poor, but that's kind of hard to do if you aren't defending them. so from where i sit, defense is permitted. scripture also says that although the gospel is non violent, nations are to hold each other accountable for their actions. this means that if one nation is perpetrating evil against a people, that a righteous nation should step in to stop it. this is an article i found that does a really good job explaining this perspective. it explains it better than i ever could. be advised, it is a bit lengthy, so take a look when you have a few minutes.
Here is another theoretical situation. You are a member of a group of survivors who get attacked by zombies occasionally, everyday business, so to speak. In addition, you learned it the hard way that killing those of your group who have been bitten pays off quite well -> this happens to be one of the keys of surviving z-day for more than one day. OK. But what will you do, if you find some evidence that there are indeed people who are immune to the plague? Has it been justified to kill those who were infected?
well you always have to make the distinction: do you kill them before they turn, or do you restrain them and see if they turn and then do it? if you do it before they turn, or have them commit suicide, or whatever, then the question is was it worth it? if everyone agrees and settles on suicide, then you hold no real responsibility, true, it was because of the group decision that the policy was in place, but everyone agreed to abide the rules equally. that's a really tough question, and one that should bear further discussion as a group, and examination through personal introspection.Quote:
Originally Posted by YetAnotherBloodyCheek
Here's more. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...53&version=NIVQuote:
Originally Posted by YetAnotherBloodyCheek
@SCBUBBA, to answer your question, I didn't remember it word for word but I did remember the mention of giants as offspring of daughters of man and son's of God.
I think that this sums it up for extreme situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper239
This forum always gets me thinking about new Ideas and plot lines I love it! :)
There's many ways to look at it;Quote:
Originally Posted by YetAnotherBloodyCheek
-For a start why assume that many or most of the characters should be theists in the first place? I can't speak for California but where I live (Sheffield UK) I don't know a single theist in my daily life, including family and friends. In many places theism is on the decline as society advances (some people see this as bad, some see it as a good thing).
-It could be that religion is yet to rear it's ugly (in a storyline sense) head. A loopy cult, holed up in a fortified church may provide an interesting element to the story. Maybe we'll even see divine/demonic intervention later on (ie the zombies are the work of the Devil and a few last survivors are Gods warriors, or something). Or even somebody relying on their faith to protect them and their group, ie Hershel & co. from The Walking Dead.
-It could just be that KC doesn't want to bring theism into it, for whatever reason. The internet is full of arguments about religion and faith, why risk alienating yourself from certain listeners?
There is a saying (often used by theists) that "there are no atheists in a fox hole". It's a load of crap, most atheists wouldn't just start believing in God (or gods) just because their life may be in danger, which is what I interpret your post as questioning - the life-threatening situation of a zombie apocalypse and nobody turning to religion (?)
As a side note, you describe yourself as agnostic (this term is commonly misused), gnosticism meaning with knowledge (I know there is/isn't a God) and agnosticism meaning without knowledge (I don't know if there is/isn't a God).
Agnosticism itself does not replace someone's status of belief or absence of belief, but runs parallel to it (agnosticism/gnosticism relates to position of knowledge while atheism/theism relates to position of belief) so I was just wondering are you an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist?
(I was think about starting a similar thread BTW, good one :) )
In order to cut a long story short, I will put it this way: I try to be an open-minded rationalist. However, I am not able to proof religion right or wrong.
I love how a simple line of dialogue can seem to have multiple meanings, especially when one puts a LOT of thought into it.
"I didn't fear death, or what might be on the other side if today was my last day. But that was then, this is now."
Fear of a punitive afterlife or 'unlife' as a zombie? Did Michael do something very sinful?
Or just story telling rhetoric?
Wow, nice one. Good question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
The only really characters who blatantly bring up any sort of religion are Glenn and Datu. So it's there, but not at the forefront. There's a few moments:
Glenn says "God works in mysterious ways"
and Datu:
"I was about to lead a group of people in prayer"
And there's a few other mentions of it with him where he openly says "Thank God"
Just pointing out a few.
I think it just means that life for Michael now is not the same as it was. His past experiences in the military and now a zombie apocalypse has probably made him realise that he has to do what has to be done, without any fear of what happens later. He can't be concerned anymore with any thought that he's committing "sin" when he has to look at someone and shoot them in the head. He has no time for that anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch_Doctor
BTW, have I already said that I *love* Fox News. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs5FEwgzB80