I think that at Knox and Benning, the force would be overkill. These are two bases that are on high alert already, due to possible terror attacks, etc. Sure the Z's might get a few of the guys, but those places are made to be locked down and defended.
As someone who has been in the military (Finnish military, but military none the less) I can tell you that not only would a million+ rushing people cause an "Oh shit, oh shit, OH SHIT!" reaction in most people, it's actually difficult to kill something that's far away. A human will not die if you shoot one in the stomach or in a limb or even in the chest if you miss the heart. These zombies are more resilient than humans, so it's a safe bet that they would take a lot more damage to take down. And before you bring headshots into the discussion, do you know how hard it is to score a lethal headshot? For simplicity's sake, let's say the human brain ends around your nose. That still leaves 1/3 of your head as unnecessary. Can you hit a fast moving target running towards you, probably zig-zagging as we've seen, that's that small? Very few people can. I'm an excellent marksman and I've recevied commendations for my skill and I sure as hell wouldn't want to risk my life on a shot like that.
As you said, the soldiers are trained to kill things that are far away. However, the effective range of an assault rifle is somewhere around 150m (we use 7.62 ammo in our assault rifles, I'm not sure what the 5.56 range is) and much less if you want an accurate shot on a moving target. We've seen how fast the zombies are, but even a human, running balls-out, can cover that much ground very quickly. The reason soldiers get to shoot at their enemies is because both sides take cover and don't move closer to engage in hand to hand. Yes, full auto and machine guns will mow down the zombies, but they also waste a lot of ammo. The troops on the base aren't likely to be in full combat readiness all the time, some are having chow and some are training somewhere, therefore they aren't likely to carry their entire wartime loadout with them. But for the sake of argument, let's say they would. Even so, with full auto, an assault rifle and a machine gun empty in a matter of seconds. It takes reasonably long for a human body to fall down dead, especially since the 5.56 lacks the strength to punch someone backwards. The dying or falling zombies would shield their comrades even without any effort by the shielder or the shieldee.
And what if the attack came during the night? I don't care how tough your rangers are (and I know they eat nails and shit steel chain), they have to sleep in order to remain functional. Human beings are just built that way. The entire base would be overrun and chaotic very quickly with every human bitten becoming another zombie. That's one of the greatest strengths of the undead, they make themselves stronger by making us weaker.
Just my two cents. I'm not trying to talk smack about the US army or any other, but facts are facts and they have to be faced
And to add to that, they're not going to instantly know that they're under attack by a zombie horde. Just like in the news reports, they'll assume that it's a riot or something else that doesn't require their full power. By the time there are zombies within the perimeter, it's likely to be too late.
well technically, humans CAN do what you have listed (maybe not the swimming for days/months underwater lol).
Usain bolt's fastest is around 27 mph/44kmh. Sports science says that with current info, human might hit the physical max of around 35-40mph in the future. There are also suggestion that speed is simply limited by how hard the runner can strike a running surface(extra zombie strength).
That in turn could increase how far/high a person can jump. So i guess i could say, from at least a physical standpoint, that it is possible for the runners and jumpers (maybe one in the same) to do what you listed. Cold and heat are a different thing though.
At around 1400 F(sustained), a human body will ignite. A campfire can do that. This would be considered hard, compared to flesh freezing. The human body is mostly water. The problem with that, is anything around freezing point, will turn solid. Im sure most of you have put meat in a freezer and at some point found it at a later date. Thats what would happen to flesh. I could be a bit more graphic, but freezing would/should be a big problem for the zombies...unless a bunch of the smart ones decide to take up making tacky Christmas sweaters for them to wear in the cold.
GRANTED this is not real life (i hope) lol
All of that being said, i really think that places like Canada, Alaska, Russia, Scandinavia, other rather cold places; would at least have some sort of chance to get organized with proper offensive and defensive plans while the Z's are frozen. (perhaps defrost when its warmer.)
ALSO, who isnt down for a bunch of Canadians with maple syrup and skis, blowing holes into the Z's. Im sure they would be very polite about it and give the Z's a proper warning. (the movie Canadian Bacon anyone? hehe)
the last two posters make valid points, but look at an aerial/geography of both fort knox and Benning. Here are a few facts to support my case. I'll start with Fort knox
This is a fort made to store and protect most of Americas gold. It has 20+inch reinforced blast doors and walls with a closed air/water lines. On top of that, there are the troops i stated before with armored combat military vehicles, tanks, and many artillery pieces. If you google search the image of this area, you can also see that the place already has a clear line of sight to a tree line and can be defended with relative safety, around the entire "vault"(small bunkers line the walls). I should have also stated earlier that the biggest weapon these places would have is the artillery and helicopters. I agree 100 percent when you say that shooting someone would not cut it. One last thing, it is heavy suggested that the open field around the base is heavily mined, has automated machine guns triggered by interrupting laser beams are emplaced to guard the building and its approaches, as well as ground sweeping radar, and body capacitance wires.
As for Fort Benning, The closest city is Columbus, Georgia and that city is basically nothing but the families of those at Fort Benning. From there, it is miles from the closest big cities. The zombies would have to know where the base is, (sure that could happen) but unless this all started there, it would take some time for the Zs to get in the area. By that time, i think a place with around 200k people, mostly military, could setup at least some sort of defense. Like ft. knox, the place has tons of mech vehicles, artillery, etc. This place is also self sustaining and has several natural features that could help defend the area.
So to sort of sum that all up, ft. knox is set to defend against anything that should not be there(no matter who it is), with tanks, artillery, aircraft, helicopters. Ft. Benning is far away from major cities, has over 130k active duty military there, with MORE firepower then ft. knox.
I also think everyone should go and listen to the parts about the prison and the colony. The Prison is close to a densely populated area and the colony is based around a park. These are both places in the Metro area of Greater LA, with a population of close to 18 million people. Louisville, KY (closest to Fort Knox) has 1.3 million people and Columbus, Georgia (the city made because of Ft. Benning) has a bit under 200k people. I think these are numbers that can be defended against and maybe even repulsed.
Please comment with any holes im sure i included in this small wall of text :p lol
Speed is based on stride length and push down/off from the surface. If you can push down harder you will move faster. If your strides are longer you will move faster.
Oh wow... that's a hilariously scary visual. 5 zombies doing the stretch-armed shuffle down the road in christmas jumpers chasing me.
Wow.. Ok, Hey Luna.. the Max effective range on an M16 (5.56 ball point NATO round)is 550 meters for a point target. 800 for an area target. Max range is 3600 meters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luna Guardian
You guys are focused on just ARMY installations and your forget there are other branches of services. USAF, USM, USCG, USN and all the various National Guard and Reserve installations.
Every installation has family that live on them... they have shooping centers (Commissary/BX) movie theatres, bowling allys..blah, blah,..
The only people armed on any installation are the MPs (Army/Marines) and SFS (USAF security forces). They work on shifts. I can only speak on the USAF side because I spent 4 years in the SFS guarding Nukes and standing under the wings of classified planes. So, at anytime in a shift you may have 17 armed people. It depends on the size of the installation.
You'll have armed guards (Civ now) at each gate and they only carry 9mil hand guns with max 36 rounds and 2 guards per post.
Those troops who aren't on duty are at home with family or on leave.. whatever. The first sign of trouble, they do a telephone recall (just like KC wrote in the first episode). You have a recall roster and it tells you who you're supposed to call after you get your call. It goes down the line untel 100 % accountability is reached for flight/battalion or unit.
You'd never reach 100% if the base is under this kind of attack. Troops families would be effected or the troops themselves.
Again, these are only those assigned to carry weapons during peace time. Cops and guards only. You arm up, get briefed on the situation and do whatever the "On Scene" Commander needs until the Commander Center stands up and you go into "Mass Casualty mode" That means that the entire MP/SFS unit would be recalled to arm up.
Special Forces troops would have the same issues. They have to get to base first and if they are on base.. they aren't armed.
Pilots, Tank drivers, etc... all the same issues.
Think about the recent shootings on the army installations... We go day to day just like you guys do, but we're just in uniform. We drop our kids off at daycare and go to work.
- Everyone else would have to fend for themselves until they got to a secured location. Spouses, Kids, Civilians....
How many troops would actually report if they had family turning? How many would make it to base if they lived OFF the installation?
There are no private firearms allowed in base housing. You have to keep your weapons in the base armory.
My installation doesn't even have long weapons. We have civilian guards and they aren't in the building proper because of clearance levels. So, if someone turned in the building.. all hell would break loose and you'd have chaos in the hallways. The only survivors would be people who didn't open the doors from the inside. (They can't be opened from the outside by just turning a knob)
I digress....
The military wouldn't enter any civilian areas until each base/post was secured first and only when/if Congress lifted Posse Comitatus Act.
The National Guard and Coast Guard are the only forces that have the ability to act on civilian soil. Again, those troops have to be recalled from HOME in order to get armed up.
I may have been a bit unclear. Certainly, the maximum range for an assault rifle is much longer than the 150m I stated. However, your chances of hitting something past that are minimal without added optics. The accuracy of the shot is certainly different for the 7.62 and the 5.56 as well, because the 5.56 is so much lighter (the 7.62 is more effective in woodlands combat however due to its mass, but let's not get into that here and derail the entire topic).Quote:
Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel
Also, let us assume that Knox got the alarm early enough and managed to get all suited and booted, locked and loaded (maybe the fort commander acted on his own, maybe he got authorization, just roll with it for a while). How long could Knox hold out? I'm willing to bet that within two weeks without supply runs they'd be starving, even with rationing. What about water? Medicine? The soldiers may be able to fight off the zombies that come there if they come in small enough groups, but remember that our zombies here on We're Alive bite into cans and eat everything, including dogfood. Supplies are running out, fast, and the defenders of Fort Knox would either have to leave the fort or die of starvation, thirst or sickness.
Unless the military installation is truly and completely self sufficient with enough power (solar, wind, etc) food (crops, livestock) and water (groundwells etc.), there's no way they could survive. As Crowbar said, if the zombies'd be running amok here, I would get The Call to report to my unit for certain. I'd say "Fuck you, sir", hang up and continue on with my Z-Day Plan. Fuck if I'm going to get myself killed in a Little Big Horn of our time for some people who in all likelyhood have no idea what's going on. I'd protect my family and friends, that's where I'm most needed (and consequentially, whom I most care about)
Another thing the zombies have over us is that in most cases of physical exertion, your mind or spirit gives out way before your body does. I'm going to assume zombies don't have this issue, therefore they can push themselves to the absolute limit of their inhuman limits.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeRose05
hmm well i dont know how long ft. knox could survive, long term, but they do have private closed, air,power,and water lines. I think that it is also possible that they would be able to use the many large farms not far away. Sure they would have to travel in the combat vehicles (tanks, bradleys, buffaloes, etc) or the several helicopters to get the stuff, but it would not be that difficult. As for the medical side, there is a base hospital that is connected to the "less" secure parts of the fort, underground. Fort Benning is also completely self sufficient. Thats why i suggested that these bases would at least last stand for some measurable time. Oh and both of the bases have at least 3 months worth of fuel and are in range many refueling bases that are literally in the middle of no where. with no towns or really any people for miles and miles.
I think it would be very likely that if there is any sort of organized military force(land based), this is where it would come from. I also think it is likely that the men/women in charge would also want to hook up with other military units. Maybe we will see some when Michael and friend visit Ft. irwin. It might not be as big as the other forts, but it about 30 something miles away from Barstow, California and kinda close to 29 Palms (the marine corps ground and air combat training center. The big problem i see is getting water and food there.
Good debate going on here! i hope some of this gets added to the story. Maybe a few officers in charge, will be named after us. lol one can dream.
i totally agree. I think thats why I think it would be possible. :)
What about Virginia Beach with 5 SEAL teams and people like me with 12,760 Rounds of ammo (That's not a made up number; I just pulled up my inventory sheet to double check the number). Along with that there are 13 military installations in the Hampton Roads area.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow
We have several nuke subs and carrier fleets out to sea
It would take a super smart one with good logistics to get to and into Area51
There are thousands of small towns. Even in these people will have hunting camps even more remote. People from cities do not comprehend how sparse the nation really is. And I do not get cities 8). When I looked at the map the colony is basically what I would call south LA. Listening to the pod casts I felt it was lie down in San Diego. The whole story has taken place in what a few hundred square miles? Me, I am more than 300 miles north of NYC. I do not know how many 15 floor towers there are in LA. But I imagine that place lit up like Xmas tree could be seen for miles and miles on a moonless night
How effective would bases designed to keep humans out be against zombies, especially if they had a Behemoth and a jumper or two? If the military is out there its probably still hiding away, not risking lives trying to find survivors that might not exist. And who's to say that the chain of command would stay in tact? It hasn't in Angels unit.
If they hit New Zealand, it is likely only in the North Island, so I reckon I would be ok. On the flip side though, we have few guns, and other weapons around would be very basic. Our military is pretty basic and mainly goes on peace keeping duty, so they probably wouldn't be much help.
We are a pretty DIY nation, so building up protections as a group of survivors would be ok, and it doesn't take long to get out of the city and into the bush.
Probably a few other countries or areas around that are similar.
I wonder, Afghanistan? I might have said this before, I'm not sure but seriously, the Taliban are armed, already have cave systems that they are familiar with defending and are experienced surviving in their surroundings. Might this apply for UN/British/American troops out there?
Mike and crew weren't "stationed" at a real base/post. It's only a building basically. If it was an active reserve or active duty installation, there would be troops there 24/7 and have base security. They had a place to "Muster" and that's about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solanine
I was referring to chain of command when I talked about Angels unit. I wasn't under the impression that the base with the hummers was supposed to be their Diamondium fortress.
You have a point. At any given time you'd have thousands of Navy troops at sea, you'd have planes in the air on missions. Places like North Africa, Kenya, The "Stan or areas of China would practically be untouched. Hell, there are part of Montana that woudn't even know WTF was going on. LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solanine
:L, Can you imagine the look on an Inuits face when some blackened, almost dead zombie crawls at him, very slowly, across the ice. followed by like twenty others. Although I'm not sure whether zombies can get frostbite?
Speaking of Montana.. in the AF we have Missle bases in most of the Northern Tier bases. Crews go out for 3 days at a time and stay in fenced in and very isolated silos/areas. You have the Security Forces guarding the spot and the missle crews below ground. Nothing would get to those troops while they were out. Some places are so remote you get dropped of by helo.
You'd have pockets consisting of 12 or more heavily armed and well trained security members here and there for every NT base.
Lets throw in people like WV coal miners and Oil Rig crews into the soup as groups who'd likely survive any initial outbreak.
As I read through this thread there are alot of very valid points on the possibility on how different pockets of survivers could have remained. Remoteness of there location, giving them time to prepare for the impending onslaught. Amount of defence as well as large amounts of soldiers, weapons and ammunition. I do think that any military base given the time to secure a part of there base so as to not be spread too thin could hold out very well. We can use the Colony as an example. Under attack they made there defensive line and have hundreds of people according to Marcus. The biggest problem I see would be the initail reaction on the soldiers as the deadheads attacked. They would probably lose alot of men due to the insanity and disbelief by being attacked by something already dead. Then you will have to deal with the deserters who will slip through the line in search of loved ones. Once a base has shored of the lines and have survived that initail onslaught, now comes to the problems of basic survival. Usin a base like Ft. Benning, where it was stated the was 200k soldiers. Lets say that 50k survived and are now holding the lines. Not counting if any non combatants made it to the base for there protection. Now how do you feed all those people. Sure there is going to be an ample supply of food and MRE's on base. But not 3 to 4 months supplies. Maybe it can be strechted by rationing but soon the base would have to begin to forage the surrounding countryside as well as any towns or cities nearby. I amsure there is some farming and livestock to be had but I think soon that large number of troops that held the line will become very hungry.
And to touch base on missle silos. I rmember reading somewhere once upon a time that the 2 men at the silo controls were supplied for 6 months rations and water to wait out any radiation of enemy missle attacks near there location. If they let the security detail join them, that would be quartered in time but still a month to hold out in a cramped missle silo is better than becoming zombie feed.
I think the situation is the same well not as intense as L.A. but I think there is one safezone somewhere
Fort Irwin really is a prime example of a military base that has a good chance of surviving the initial zombie attack. This is partly because it is very isolated, and partly because very few people know about it, so there is a chance that it would get enough warning to mobilize before the zombies could arrive. When I was stationed there it was a 45 minute drive from my quarters on the base to the closest residential neighborhood of the nearest city, Barstow. Even if someone in Barstow got infected and tried to drive to the base, the odds are that they would have turned long before they could complete the drive. And Barstow itself is pretty darned isolated. The base itself is surrounded by enormous tracts of undeveloped desert in just about every direction, so the only practical overland approach is via the Interstate to Barstow, then down the one long road from there to the main gate.
Fort Irwin itself has tremendous resources available to it for zombie defense. First, it's a training base with a comparatively small resident population, but an enormous amount of hardware and ordinance. Army units travel to Fort Irwin to conduct high intensity combat training, usually as a final act before they deploy overseas. They draw their vehicles and heavy equipment from large stockpiles maintained on the base for the use of rotational units, everything ranging from Humvees to tanks. There are large stockpiles of ammunition, military rations and fuel there to support the training efforts.
The base is self-sufficient in the key areas of water (from wells) and electrical power (from the largest solar electric power generating plant in the United States).
Fort Irwin is also a "fully instrumented range complex", which is a fancy way of saying that there are videocameras capable of watching almost everything that happens there. Every action by the training units is recorded, some by stationary cameras, some by roving camera crews, and some by a set of very large cameras located in observatory domes on the mountain tops. All the images from all the cameras are fed into a central command center, where they are used to help analyze and critique the performance of training units. These systems could easily be adapted into an early warning system to watch the base's perimeter.
The biggest challenges would probably be resupplying food and vehicle fuel.
Is the land suitable for growing vegetables and grains?
Not in the least. The area is all desert, with a pretty high alkali content. You could probably set up gardens for very heat-tolerent crops, or maybe climate-controlled greenhouses in the Isreali style, but I can't imagine being able to grow enough food at Fort Irwin to feed a large number of people.
how many people die first wave? 30-50% - there are 6.9 Billion people on earth. within a month maybe 75 -90% re-animated . there are 1-2 billion people in china another 1 billion in india. not very much is gonna survive for any length of time in those odds. World War Z scenario or Day by Day - not much hope against billions .
I don't think Fort Irwin is a last stop for Michael and co. by any means. In the long run just doesn't seem suitable. But it would be easier than the tower if only a few of "them" have got there. Outlasting them would be my plan in Michael's shoes. Being able to produce food enough to feed them all won't happen over night but as they adjust and learn they will most likely be able to achieve that, if not they will have to resort to fishing, in an arid desert. Or starvation if you like to call it that.
The almost insurmountable problem with U.S. agriculture is the specialization. We grow stuff at such an industrial scale with so much technology that it is not really helpful to a group of thirty. Their best bet is to identify a hippy commune. There are prpobably a couple in southern California. If they want to be agrarian, it will take years to get off the ground. It is a hell of a lot of work. It will require livingb off the land. But the problem there is the big industrial farms are really crappy ecosystems because they are so heavily dominated By one "something". No diversity.
There must be smaller independent farms with a range of products though? I suppose this is the problem with western countries, we use technology as a chair or ladder to elevate us to greater and greater heights. When the ladder is kicked away we face a hard fall that we might not survive.
actually the infection doesnt start in l.a because there are if you listen report of it happening at the same time in other cities like houston
As a long time resident of Tokyo, I see things going something like this.
Just like everywhere else in the world, a mass exodus from central Tokyo. Only the roads would be much worse off than almost anywhere in the U.S. or Europe. I've attempted to drive out of Tokyo on holidays or long weekends, and traffic can be be at a practical standstill for 30 or more miles in nearly every direction out of the city. I guess we can assume the outbreak happened pretty fast, so it might be safe to assume that the metro area of Tokyo might be better off than the outlying areas and the prefectures nearby. Not that it would be safe by any means, but I think of it as a pebble dropped in a pond; fewer numbers in the center of the city, with waves of zombies spreading out. Of course they would make their way back into the city eventually, but at the beginning you might have enough time to fortify a place to live. There are massive stores of emergency supplies for earthquakes all over the city and underground, so provided you could get to them, you would have enough food to last for decades assuming a large portion of the population has turned. This goes for all major cities like Osaka, Hokkaido and the like.
Going by the reactions of people here after the earthquake last year, I think survivors would band together quickly and form communities, sharing goods and housing, protection, etc. Seeing as there are virtually no guns outside of police revolvers, and a very small amount of assault rifles in the Self Defense Forces (when compared to the U.S.), it would be nearly all melee weapons. Those who live far up in the mountains would be affected much less, and those who live on the thousands of small islands around Japan would be affected very little. There are farms and livestock on most, and populations are small enough to be sustainable. On the small islands, most people know each other and would probably have little problem banding together to clean out the few undead and set up patrols and watches.
Anyway, that's what I think would happen here in Japan.
Whatever it was, I doubt it was natural. It spread WAY too fast for it to be natural. Now as for what's happening elsewhere? I think much the same as in LA. Most folks fleeing the cities as fast as their conveyances can carry them, some spreading the infection far and wide. But as of now? I'd not want to be too close to a city, any city. It's just teeming with the buggers and they don't need much provocation to go chase you. So I think staying away is going to be on everyone's minds.
I'm OK with the speed it spread, my concern is the near simultaneous global hot zone breakouts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Weiser
Best place to be would be the Falkland Island, large military base, fishing industry and isolated.
Interesting theories about other survivors. I've often wondered about all of the Naval vessels/sailors at sea, especially aboard subs. I'm sure that Michael will be learning about other survivors/bases besides the ones in Colorado.
Another thing I've been curious about since I started listening is the situation at the nuclear power plants in California & around the world. When the situation was becoming clear on the riots/infections, did these go into lock-down mode? Did they try to shut them down? It would be terrible to have to face a meltdown situation in addition to the zombies.
I have enjoyed reading this thread more than the others I have read in awhile. However as much as we can debate the range / accuracy of weapons and the people stations and what this does and does not do, wht we have missed is the human element. This has been touched upon several times, but not expounded upon. Mass hysteria can effect even disciplined soldiers, and when your enemy does not die by conventional means and gets back up, then you have that moment which defines you. In most cases fight or flight becomes RUN! When we have family that could be dying, or affected when we have the element of compassion which has also been brought up by the base commander in reference to the other military units, then we end up dead.
The thought which has gone into this story line is impressive.
I believe we will see the population centers fall, with small bands similar to those we have here in our favorite audio drama. The rural areas we will see resistance and some chance of hope. The more remote the better.
BTW there was an amazing amount of details provided on military facilities in this thread - should some of that be expunged?
Nahh. Any correct info is either open source, that is unclassified or declassified. Or it is wildly inaccurate, incomplete or contains redundant information or is vague enough to not be an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishZombieKiller
Hmmm, thinking about it, the UK might very well be OK. We are quite a small island really and as long as the cause was imported from outside our boundaries we would have a good chance of stopping it. Police in airports do have access to guns I believe. We would have to mobilise and protect our borders from mainland Europe, France and Belgium mainly. The risk would come from those bitten as Zombies are unlikely to get on a boat, fly plane etc. so it would depend on how quickly people turned, if they were already in transit then they would most likely be arriving at a recognised airport/sea port and could be controlled there. We would have to permanently block the channel tunnel as well of course. The UK is quite capable of self sufficiency and does not need to import anything really, although we’d have to go without a lot of things it would sill be a decent existence I think.
If the outbreak originates here then we are more likely to be screwed though.
VEE after watching 28 Days, NOPE. No one is safe. There is no way to stop these, unless we screen EVERYONE and it did not help.