Chain of Command- Fort Irwin, Ch. 26.1 and further

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by looney

For all of the non-military folks on here, I'll let you know how a new 2LT (or butterbar as we call them) is treated when he shows up to an Infantry unit. First, we check his left shoulder. No ranger tab? That means he's weak since most of his class of officers will have their tab. Second, we introduce ourselves (As a platoon sergeant, I introduce myself, then my squad leaders). Usually a good LT will say something like "I can't wait to learn from you guys". If he says he's got some great ideas, you're in trouble. The platoon leader has to learn from their NCOs to be successful. Lastly, you get the platoon in a formation and let him introduce himself. If he starts telling you all the deficiencies he finds on the soldiers or acts like he's an NCO himself, you have to stop that shit immediately. I've had the best PLs and the worst PLs you could imagine.

With all of that being said, if Angel had been with them he would have been treated the same way until he showed that he knew his shit. It wouldn't have taken long, but he still wouldn't have impressed anyone with his rank. Michael's rank has a lot more pull with soldiers and officers than 2LT.

---

Ok, that's understandable, but if they were to re integrate with the unit at fort irwin, Angel would be in a higher position of command than Michael right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

I totally disagree. Much in the same way everyone in the Tower looked to Michael and not Angel, despite Military structure and rankings, Michael is head and shoulders above Angel and it doesn't take much for people to realize it. All they'd have to do is line the two of them up and see how much better Michael is at just about everything and he'd get an immediate field promotion. And you saying Angel is a better do-er and mission helper makes him (in action) a subordinate to Michael...the planner. So I'd say you just shot your own argument in the foot.

---

What I mean is, when the tower was intact. Michael was supreme ruler and commander. He took orders from no one. His role was more of a general, and a president to the people of the tower. Angel's role on the other hand was exactly one of an officer. He took orders handed down from the guy in charge, and he got things done.

The other thing is, if the military is still following protocol, i feel that they wouldn't line them up and see who's better, they would say hey, you're a 2nd lt, you do this job. Hey you're a sgt, you do this job. (Unless I'm wrong?-looney? -Crowbar?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nikvoodoo

Yes and no. Michael doesn't need to take full command. If he feels like whomever is in charge has the best interests of his people in mind (and actually follows through on it) I don't feel like he NEEDS to lead. If he trusts the person in charge at Irwin, and he's given command of a little squad of troops, that could be enough. The issue Michael has had with people over him in the story has been they don't listen to his ideas. If someone is willing to listen, and consider his opinion and his "family" is safe....he's more likely to fall in line in my opinion.

And I sincerely doubt that Angel would be given command right away either. If they are surviving just like everyone else...trust is at a premium.
BTW: I missed this oh so much!

---

Here's the thing, for the story to progress, someone from the tower, NEEDS to be in a leadership role at irwin. He doesn't need full command but he's the type who would never be satisfied with his group not having representation. The other thing is, there was a line from an older episode where he said he just didn't like taking orders from anyone anymore.

As for angel being command right away, probably not, but that's most likely all a part of the re integration process. See if they're trustworthy, and if they prove themselves, give them positions at the base. afterwards, i'm under the impression that if they're following protocol they'd put the 2nd lt into a 2nd lt's role, (as unrespected as he might be) and they'd put a sgt, into a sgt's position. (once again -looney, crowbar?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ra1th

Ok, that's understandable, but if they were to re integrate with the unit at fort irwin, Angel would be in a higher position of command than Michael right?

---

Technically, if Angel and Michael were to work together in a regular unit, with a standard command structure, Angel outranks Michael. Angel could issue orders to Michael and Michael would be expected to execute with no question. The thing is, Michael and all of the NCOs in that unit would have years of real experience that Angel didn't and would have the backing of the commander and the first sergeant if Michael told him that his idea was stupid. You always have to have tact in the military, that's what keeps you out of trouble. And by experience, I don't necessarily mean combat. NCOs know who to go to in order to get things done. New LTs never know the better way to get stuff done in a hurry. They always feel the need to go by the book and take forever. That's why LTs are always at work until like 1900 when their NCOs are trying to leave at 1500. I'll have to relisten to it, but I'm pretty sure Michael and Saul treated Angel just like a new LT in the first few chapters.

To respond to your second post, normally an E-5 sergeant would fill a team leader role, with 3 or 4 soldiers under him, following a squad leader. A really high speed sergeant can fill a staff sergeant role as a squad leader, with 2 fire teams (this is the Infantry I'm speaking of, but it's a similar structure to most jobs). I could see Michael being placed in more of a platoon sergeant role, giving him charge of 4 squads. He's too good at being in charge to be placed in a remedial role. My biggest fear is that he's Intel, and he'll be placed in a job that is purely intel. Those dudes don't fight at all. They debrief guys like me and compile intel to give the big picture to the commander of troops. The best we can hope for with Angel and Michael being reintegrated into a unit is Michael being PSG and Angel being his PL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by looney

For all of the non-military folks on here, I'll let you know how a new 2LT (or butterbar as we call them) is treated when he shows up to an Infantry unit. First, we check his left shoulder. No ranger tab? That means he's weak since most of his class of officers will have their tab. Second, we introduce ourselves (As a platoon sergeant, I introduce myself, then my squad leaders). Usually a good LT will say something like "I can't wait to learn from you guys". If he says he's got some great ideas, you're in trouble. The platoon leader has to learn from their NCOs to be successful. Lastly, you get the platoon in a formation and let him introduce himself. If he starts telling you all the deficiencies he finds on the soldiers or acts like he's an NCO himself, you have to stop that shit immediately. I've had the best PLs and the worst PLs you could imagine.

With all of that being said, if Angel had been with them he would have been treated the same way until he showed that he knew his shit. It wouldn't have taken long, but he still wouldn't have impressed anyone with his rank. Michael's rank has a lot more pull with soldiers and officers than 2LT.

---

too true, my father was in for 22 and i remember him coming home and complaining to mom about the latest stupid thing his butthead LT did. he was a platoon SGT too so his job was primarily hand holding the new LTs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ra1th

Here's the thing, for the story to progress, someone from the tower, NEEDS to be in a leadership role at irwin. He doesn't need full command but he's the type who would never be satisfied with his group not having representation. The other thing is, there was a line from an older episode where he said he just didn't like taking orders from anyone anymore.

---

No they don't. If Michael convinces the Leader at Ft. Irwin they need to go back to LA, and Michael gets put in charge of the mission, gets a crew, and goes. That doesn't require him to be in a leader role beyond what he already does. And according to you that's not leadership per your previous argument.

Quote:

---

The other thing is, if the military is still following protocol, i feel that they wouldn't line them up and see who's better, they would say hey, you're a 2nd lt, you do this job. Hey you're a sgt, you do this job. (Unless I'm wrong?-looney? -Crowbar?)

---

Quote:

---

As for angel being command right away, probably not, but that's most likely all a part of the re integration process. See if they're trustworthy, and if they prove themselves, give them positions at the base. afterwards, i'm under the impression that if they're following protocol they'd put the 2nd lt into a 2nd lt's role, (as unrespected as he might be) and they'd put a sgt, into a sgt's position. (once again -looney, crowbar?)

---

See....you're not seeing the forest through the trees in my opinion. Sure. Stick Angel in as Lt. And again, I say that Michael is more qualified than Angel and would outrank him immediately following the "trustworthy proving" grounds. If the military structure still stands, there's going to be a distinct lack in leadership by its nature simply because there are less leaders.

The reality is that Michael is a more worthy Lt. Angel is a more worthy Sgt.

If they test them to see if they're trust worthy. who's to say Michael (who has proven himself far more capable than Angel in just about every aspect of well.....everything) wouldn't outrank him by the time they're done? Just because Angel starts ahead doesn't mean he ends up ahead.

negative, sergeants are your backbone. a 2LT is supposed to be in a learning mode, as such he should be learning what it is to be a leader of men from his NCO. if he isn't than he is failing in his capacity as a 2LT. angel has certain training that michael doesn't have, and that training will be useful if he ever comes into his own, but right now he has neither the experience to be an effective leader nor it seems the inclination to learn to be an effective leader. in a leadership role, experience counts for a lot, but having the kind of knowledge imbued at OCS and/or west point is a great asset as well. if he learned from michael, or any of the NCOs at the base, how to be an authority figure, along with the experience he has gained in the shit, and gaining time actually leading a platoon at the base, he would be a fantastic leader.

I'm retracting my ten foot pole from this discussion and going to fly the Swiss flag on this one.

KC showed us the tension between ranks in the 1st couple of chapters. Just listen to Michael as Angel is introduced. Something like

The spoiled rich kid... (just out of OCS?) ... but I had more command experience in (the tip of ) my little finger.

One of the main themes beof the story is the shift of Michael from the angry older brother with a huge father and control issues to calm provider / protector husband. My guess is he does not rise to clan-leader, but he learns how to accept orders and help from his elders.

Angel is making the transition from a self-centered child who believes he is entitled to a very talented leader who can guide others with a light hand and eventually to clan leader.

I believe both are half-way through their heroes journey.

Burt is a retired marine without family. He clearly out ranks Michael. Although he brisles under it, he will take orders, but not without getting the last (sarchastic) word. He starts the transition back to father-figure quickly. "You're not alone Blondie". He tries to take command, but does not do well with civilian personality types and freezes when his "daugher" Lizzy is the subject of wrath. He gives up the direct leadership role going back to father and protector. He will bow out of a direct combat role and transition back to the great-grandfather. He comes to terms with the idea that he is well, getting old. it happens to all of us. The mind is willing, but the body does not respond like it used to. They say you never stop being a marine and they also say that every marine a rifleman. Burt showed that a marine is always a marine by ending retirment and going back to active duty. But, even Beowulf eventually falls in battle and Bret Fabre misses a game and then a season.

Damn, too early in the morn' for this type philisophical pontification. This is more of a beer and chips at the pub discussion. TGIF

Shouldn't this thread be the in Other Factions section?

I'm really interested to see what the chain of command is like at the base and also if there is any remains of government.

Surely there must be pockets across the country Like Fort Irwin which have been able to hold out?