An Alarming Level of Intelligence

[nikvoodoo]

The level of intelligence of the Zombies in We're Alive is rather startling. We know they can track survivors by smell, but that's not intelligence exactly. That's instinct. So take away their ability to smell and track their prey. That's not what I'm talking about.

One major reason I think the Tower has survived as long as it did is they Tower didn't present a major or immediate danger to the Zombies. They are relatively small, and it seems like their scouting parties never really surpassed 1 vehicle. Every time we hear about a group of survivors being trapped or attacked by Zombies, it's a convoy. The Kalani Tower (for lack of a better descriptor) was attacked first. They were better organized and prepared according to Kalani. So to take them out first would be a priority for your survival. This goes against every animal instinct there is. You attack the weakest and most feeble because they are easy prey. The Zombies are attacking strong targets first, and cleaning up the rest as they go. That demonstrates a sophisticated level of organization. And when did Ink arrive at the Tower? After the Arena had been infiltrated. That required an immediate response.

In the Arena, they have stock piled food. They don't have to venture out to get nourishment if they don't have to. They can just walk down the corridor and lo! It's a gigantic pile of flesh to chew on. But what truly concerned me about the arena were the fires. Datu doesn't describe the fires, but I think they are significant. They don't seem to be raging out of control fires (I'm sure that would have been mentioned), but controlled fires. They have figured out how to set and control fire, which if you think back through human history was the launch point of our civilization. The Zombies have created a home with creature comforts: Food, warmth, and entertainment (See: Samantha).

Of course we know they can build a trap. The only trap we've seen in action is against Datu. It's primitive, but effective. They realized the tracker was something the humans put on them, and they used it as bait. We can only suppose about the attacks on the Convoys and cars being used to block roads since we haven't seen them in action yet.

Last, but certainly not least, is Ink and all he brings to the story. Ink has the ability to speak and understand language. He also retained basic literacy since we know he entered the code on the door. Ink seems to have the capacity to have fun (again, See Samantha). But he also commands his legion. He calls them to his side, orders them to retreat etc. The moment that alarmed me more than any was during the War aftermath when he was on the rooftop observing the battle and basically calling out orders. Not to mention the fact he seems to know exactly when he's about to be shot at and moves. Twice Burt has aimed at him, and twice he moved at the last moment.

So the question is: How smart are they? Are they becoming smarter as they adjust to their new lifestyle? Are there any more examples you've seen in the series/heard about from character stories that lead away from the mindless hunter?

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Skittles tells Angel and Kalani to stay away from Hospitals and Libraries because of the "Brains." He says he can't hide from them so he stays away. That confirms Burt's theory about the smarter you are in life the smarter you are in death.

[wooly]

This is one of the best hooks to the story! These are neither Romero-esque shamblers nor 28-Day style ragers, but something new. There certainly seems to be a structure based on intelligence and skill specialization here as well as a form of ranking, society and communication. It's fascinating and I can't wait to hear more. It certainly ups the danger level to the survivors and brings new challenges which this genre really hasn't had - at least in the zombie stories I am familiar with. Even after 18 chapters I'm still not sure what to call the enemy. Is zombie appropriate? Or mutant? Or infected? I'm really not sure. Kudos to the writers for bringing something new, I'm liking it.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

I've settled on calling them "creatures."
Zombie sure as hell doesn't fit the majority of them. Infected doesn't either.

[mascaria]

*points to url of podcast and forum* Zombie seems to fit.
Zombies aren't and haven't been just one thing in years so it's silly to nitpick because these mutate differently than we're used to.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

I'd actually have to nerdly argue that part with you Mascaria. Zombies historically are the dead risen like is "Night of the Dead." When you see the shuffling, rigor mortis, arms outstreatched things,only interested in human flesh... you automatically go ZOMBIES!! The myth has just been twisted just like the Vampire ledgends have (see Twilight) to fit each authors vision. The infected persons version that we've come to love like 28 days, Resident Evil, Dead Space type "creatures" are recent versions. When you see the running, red eyed, jumping, climbing NON rigor mortis having things your now practiced-and jaundiced- eye goes INFECTED!

[mascaria]

:hem hem: Allow me to please refute your argument!

If you're going to get technical the rising dead ala Night of the Dead aren't really zombies either since zombies are the risen bodies or people cursed by a voodoo practitioner, died and then come back to life as the brainless slaves of the spell caster. They don't eat flesh or brains and they can't infect others and have been known to be cured by emotionally stressful situations. White Zombie, being the first full length zombie movie would then be the authority on what is or isn't zombie, but since we end up with very few voodoo zombies and more "other reason" zombies, it obviously isn't that zombies are one thing but have evolved into a genre with different causes.

[StepLaugh]

You guys have both good points. I've recently been calling "zombies" Infected. Cause it fits the word. But until we find out what cause the infection in the first place, I'm still calling them Zombies.

[Ra1th]

Does it really matter what you call them? we know what their properties are, what does it matter whether u call them infected or creatures or zombies, i'd say call em zombies cause its called the zombie podcast, but no matter what u call em, it doesnt really change anything

[nikvoodoo]

Can I say how entertaining it is to see this go on such a tangent? What started as a (long winded and slightly rambling) post to accumulate examples of the Zombies intelligence has gone into a semantic debate over their title. :p

[Ra1th]

hahah u dont leave much left for us to debate, rock solid point

How smart are they? like us when we were hunter gatherers, except with more emphasis on hunting and a seething hate for veggies.

Are they becoming smarter as they adjust to their new lifestyle? maybe they were always this way? they just had a large food supply in the beginning, or maybe the stupid ones are dying away, but who knows.

Are there any more examples you've seen in the series/heard about from character stories that lead away from the mindless hunter? no i think u nailed em all.

[Hollomandious]

I vote to call them zombies, cause KC decided so when he named the show.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

I'll sign off by saying "Night of the Dead" They're coming to get you Barbara... was a dead guy straight from a coffin.
So, my tangent wasn't about a name, but their characteristics. The creatures in 28 Days later basically lived to further infect people. The virus HAD to find other hosts, it had to spread. The infected didn't "DIE." They transitioned (Tommy). I think of it basically like a rabid dog, so they maintain mobility and most brain functions.
This series like Resident Evil, seems to have bits and pieces of all "Zombie" subcultures, but more so along the retro virus (rewriting DNA) infected creatures. They get to evolve
MY opinion only: Zombies have rigor mortis. Infected don't.

My interest is HOW they communicate? They've developed a way to issue commands and for those commands to be understood and carried out. Maybe they've maintained the ability to reason, but lost the ability to speak? I ask this because of the Samatha/Kalani episode.
Someone else brought up the fires. That's a very important tid bit since the discovery of fire is what allowed our civilization to conquer other tribes, keep away predators and evolve. Why would they need fire?
Maybe "They" don't, but Ink does? He's clearly showed that he still has fear and he wears clothes....
Live long and prosper.

[mascaria]

Can I say how entertaining it is to see this go on such a tangent? What started as a (long winded and slightly rambling) post to accumulate examples of the Zombies intelligence has gone into a semantic debate over their title. :p

It's better than the fast/slow zombie debate that's for sure.

[Onslaught]

You know how in the story they say the smarter you are in life the smarter you are in death. Does this mean that a vegetarian in life is a vegetarian in death? Or do they become a cannibalistic monster like the rest of us beef eating fanatics.

[nikvoodoo]

You know how in the story they say the smarter you are in life the smarter you are in death. Does this mean that a vegetarian in life is a vegetarian in death? Or do they become a cannibalistic monster like the rest of us beef eating fanatics.

LOL. I bet they turn into the cannibalistic monster, but i bet they got sick for about a month as their stomach rejected the meat. Vegans would be totally screwed...

Believe me y'all, I'm not complaining about the tangents. Topics go off in different directions all the time, I just thought it was funny which direction it went. I'm not trying to get down on anyone for where the conversation went. :-)

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

ROFL! Those carrots better watch out!
I guess if your brain functions never ceased, then it makes sense to have smarter creatures than Romero's Zombies (even though they've started to learn in later movies). His Zombies were alway stuck in Ground Hogs Day mode.
KC's twisted vision/version of the genre is just plain scary as fugg! It's almost unwinable.

[StepLaugh]

ROFL! Those carrots better watch out!
I guess if your brain functions never ceased, then it makes sense to have smarter creatures than Romero's Zombies (even though they've started to learn in later movies). His Zombies were alway stuck in Ground Hogs Day mode.
KC's twisted vision/version of the genre is just plain scary as fugg! It's almost unwinable.

Speaking of Groundhog day, Happy GroundHog day :)

Also if you remember in the early RE games, if you didn't burn the zombies, or cut their heads off, later on in the game they would rise again and become Crimson Heads.

[mascaria]

So I'm thinking about this and running through this in my head but... have we ever "seen" a zombie uhm... happen on W.A. yet?

I don't think we have!

[StepLaugh]

So I'm thinking about this and running through this in my head but... have we ever "seen" a zombie uhm... happen on W.A. yet?

I don't think we have!

You mean someone turning into a zombie?

[mascaria]

You mean someone turning into a zombie?
That is what I mean. I listened to it again recently, though I'll be the first to admit that memory is pretty horrible. However, I can't think of a moment where we have the narration of a person who was dead and then they were a zombie.

[nikvoodoo]

That is what I mean. I listened to it again recently, though I'll be the first to admit that memory is pretty horrible. However, I can't think of a moment where we have the narration of a person who was dead and then they were a zombie.

Narration, no. But we heard Tommy turn during the War.

[Hollomandious]

Narration, no. But we heard Tommy turn during the War.

Don't forget Fernando.

[mascaria]

I forgot about Tommy! Did Fernando turn or was he just about to?

[Hollomandious]

I forgot about Tommy! Did Fernando turn or was he just about to?

17-3 @ 2:15. He said, "kill me" and then started groaning and those stretching sounds kicked in, and then Michael (this is my fav quote so far) shot that bitch in the face. After listening to it, i'd say, he was mid turning when the mercy shot was fired.

I wonder how smart a zombie Tommy's would have been if he had gotten away. He was durable, that much we know.

[mascaria]

I stand very corrected!

I'll have to relisten to the war..

Wait... Neither of them died first? Ohshi.

[Onslaught]

I wonder how smart a zombie Tommy's would have been if he had gotten away. He was durable, that much we know.
I don't know he was good with electronics since he could modify a video camera enough to turn it into a surveillance camera so he had to have been pretty smart. It never described him though I don't think. But I imagine he was wiry.

[Hollomandious]

I stand very corrected!

Yes you do.


I'll have to relisten to the war..

Yes you do.


Wait... Neither of them died first? Ohshi.

No they didn't.


I wonder if they are still in there. Like it takes you over but, you're still you, just acting on impulse.

[nikvoodoo]

I wonder if they are still in there. Like it takes you over but, you're still you, just acting on impulse.

That is a distinctly creepy thought if it were to be true. But it would make it possible to get characters back after they've been zombified.

[Ra1th]

That is a distinctly creepy thought if it were to be true. But it would make it possible to get characters back after they've been zombified.

i wouldnt bet on it, considering the damages the body would have gone through during the infected state. we know for a fact that the nervous system shuts down, probably along with all other non essential organs, the bodies are deteriorating and decaying too i think, even if they are in there somewhere, unless the infection was fresh i dont think you'd wanna come back to world of the sane

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Saul described the creatures in the 1st chapter. The eyes and teenage body acne times 10 seems to be what he saw. No decay, just mutated flesh.
That's my theory: Mutants like the Morlocks.

[VeritableHero]

OP: Good points raised. The thoughts about targeting the strongest threats first and reacting to the arena infiltration are intriguing. I also forgot Skittle's comments about libraries / hospitals. I’d hate to be near MIT or an Ivy League school when the outbreak occurs.

Not many people can add to your observations because they are very well structured and pull in a lot of points. Sounds like you’d make a smart zombie, too.

My thoughts:
I don't see them as getting smarter. The greater display of intelligence could just be the “strongest survive” theory at work. The dumber ones are more likely to be shot, not find food and not follow “orders” so they would die off first. This would leave only the more clever ones to cause problems for survivors. Looks like the group is getting smarter but only because there aren’t as many dumb ones around… they’ve been eaten.

Evolution of intelligence could only progress so far before it would become a different story altogether. We can’t have them becoming too smart, because coupled with increased strength and lack of inhibitors would make them too overpowered for the survivors to deal with IMO.

“Mutants like the morlocks” is a good thought, but I don’t think there is enough population to sustain it from either side.

Side point: I like the term “flesh biters” that they were calling them at some point.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Hero,
The population is huge! Remember how far south Mike and company are and think of "The Wave" that came rolling their way. Think of the 3 attacks on the tower (i'm counting the sweat trial in there) an how many popped up those time.
I brought up the Morlocks because they're smart enough to create traps and not give in to their base instincts when prey falls into them.
The behemoth chasing Angel and Kalani has "learned" to cover it's face and head from gunfire. Cause and Effect are great learning tools. LOL

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

How about this:
I think they "Share" a certain level of intellect within a given distance. They have a hive mentality with Ink as the leader.
The "Brains" act as an anchor for the other creatures.
When you find one or two on their own, they're clearly just acting on instincts.
The number of creatures in one given area increases the chances they react with more reasoning.

[Ra1th]

How about this:
I think they "Share" a certain level of intellect within a given distance. They have a hive mentality with Ink as the leader.
The "Brains" act as an anchor for the other creatures.
When you find one or two on their own, they're clearly just acting on instincts.
The number of creatures in one given area increases the chances they react with more reasoning.

but see if that was the case, what is the purpose of the roar they do? cause it seems that the zombie call is what attracts others

[nikvoodoo]

How about this:
I think they "Share" a certain level of intellect within a given distance. They have a hive mentality with Ink as the leader.
The "Brains" act as an anchor for the other creatures.
When you find one or two on their own, they're clearly just acting on instincts.
The number of creatures in one given area increases the chances they react with more reasoning.

I adore the idea of a hive mind! Maybe it's just among the Smart Ones, and the biters need the roar to follow directions.....

I mean, its a far reaching idea, but nothing more out of the ordinary than some of my theories (See: Datu=Traitor). Imagine how hard it would be to defend against a mobilized army of zombies in multiple locations, controlled by a series of smart ones who are all sharing experiences real time through a hive collective....

"We are the Zombies. Resistance is futile."

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Nik..
That would be sick! The creatures work like Ants or Bees. You have workers, the soldiers, the "King", slaves and a Hive (The arena).
The Brains (as Skittles calls them) are the anchors for the soldiers and workers.

[Teethingbiscuit]

Hive mentality has merit, though as an amateur myrmycologist (ant scientist... eh, observer) it is pretty clear that the queen ant has no real power. She is a tool, a reproductive tool. Decisions, the major decisions, in a colony are decided by the whole, through chemicals, weather, and/or unseen variables that I don't fully understand.
Teeth

[Ra1th]

Hive mentality has merit, though as an amateur myrmycologist (ant scientist... eh, observer) it is pretty clear that the queen ant has no real power. She is a tool, a reproductive tool. Decisions, the major decisions, in a colony are decided by the whole, through chemicals, weather, and/or unseen variables that I don't fully understand.
Teeth

wow ur like an actual scientist? wow u'll finally put down some long standing arguments on what is and isnt scientifically possible.

and imo, i dont see any evidence of there being a hive mind, there cant be a hive mind between the normals and the smart one's because they have to call out doing the whole zombie roar thing, and we've never actually seen smart ones working together with other smart ones, usually the smart one's work alone (like with burt) i think the only one who was actually commanding other zombies as soldiers (that we've seen happen) is Ink, but i could be wrong

[nikvoodoo]

I agree with you, Ra1th (go figure). I would need to see some really specific hard evidence to convince me of the hive mindset.

But like I said, I just love the idea of it! And just imagine if it was world wide just how much information would be contained. There would be no safe spot to hide because somewhere in the world, someone else would have tried it and the hive mind would know.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Ra1th, the "ROAR" is call to arms and a dinner bell in my mind. Now, when they all get in one area they're able to automatically or instinctively "share" their intelligence...
Nik,
your empirical data aka hard evidence may probably be found in the episode where Datu was "Captured." Remember, they didn't jump on him when he fell through the trap. They had "ROLES" by being there and waiting. Orders to follow by not eating him and putting him in the room. What I do know about watching Ants is that they will take stuff back instead of consuming it right where they find it. Why? Teeth may be able to answer that
Also, does anyone think it was pure chance that the power plant- where Mike was injured- was infested by a behemoth?
Seems like strategy to me.
I'm not suggesting the "Hive Mind" is an actual intelligence, but more instinctive. The more you have in one area, the smarter they tend to be, the more organized they act. Not, "Hey used to be named Bob, you got left and used to be named Nicole..you got right."
Episode 18 had a "Wave" of creatures heading towards Mike and crew right? Clearly that shows they're working in concert for a purpose. They weren't chasing anything or anyone and it most def didn't seem random. It felt as it was probably a fairly common tactic in that area.
Send out the workers to find food and when you do, report...er ROAR!

[Wicked Sid]

They seem to run in packs, sometimes with a Smart One agumenting their strategies, using their group size and tactics they've developed from encountering other survivors. I see it more as gained intelligence rather than a collective hive mind. They tend to learn as any other organism does. We haven't exactly seen a pack (strike team?) run by a smart one yet but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Sid,

Chap 5 "Lady and the Tink"
They actually are in a pack when they're chasing Saul, Lizzie and Burt. They see a smart one on the roof watching them. When go Exit Stage Left, they have a few "runners" on their 6. They pop a few then guess what? The creatures are "CALLED" back!
What does that tell you about their intelligence?

[Th3_T3ch]

I don't think that there is any hive mentality going on here. You have the smart ones that work alone, Ink who is somehow controlling them, the behemoths that are left alone by every other zombie/flesh biter except other behemoths, and jumpers which, from what I've pieced together, stick in large packs but don't follow the group (see jumpers and Tommy).

[Ra1th]

Crowbar i like ur idea of it beng an instinct. Im not as big a fan of hve mind jst because we and all the species we have encountered have biolIgically lacked the necessities needed for telepathic communications. But an antlike hive INSTINCT, now that is very intriguing.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Ants still act on a Hive mentality like Bees. You guys are thinking direct telepathic contact. It's mass intelligence. The larger the unit the "smarter" they act, the more organized/in concert they are. Having said that, they are communicating at some level way above intinct. Like the example I gave above. They're able to be called (which isn't that special), but being able to understand a command to stop and to return on command is. Well, now that I think about it.. it's no different than dog training, with the one exception of them all basically being the same species now.

[wooly]

This is why I think there is a hierarchy instead of a hive/group mind. Recall the scene at the Arena when the group of creatures came for Samantha. One creature stood at the door observing while the...

[wooly]

We've wandered far afield in this thread, let's put it together and see what we have now that a few more chapters have gone by. We don't know everything about the Smart Ones, but there are enough clues and observations to assemble a beginning personality profile.

We have observed:
- increased strength
- increased speed
- increased stamina
- some ability to retain language comprehension and usage (Ink in the Tower)
- the ability to recognize the relevance of technology (the tracker trap)
- the ability to use self-restraint (live prisoners being taken)
- related to self-restraint, the adult skill of delayed gratification (the arena prisoners, saved "for weeks" between events)
- communications at some detailed level (giving of orders)
- planning and executing coordinated attacks (Ink observing above the vehicle ambush and on the rooftop during the War)
- enforcing discipline in the creature lower orders (he bellows, they obey - why I don't know)
- the ability to manipulate technology (the keypad and possibly driving the blocking vehicle at the convoy ambush site)
- while not proven, I agree that the Behemoths were stationed intentionally at both the water pumping facility and at the military base. Both are known high-value assets to humans (other survivor groups had utilized both) and I could see leaving a Behemoth as a walking trap. This would indicate long-term strategic thinking if true.

Have I missed anything?

That is indeed an alarming level of intelligence in your enemy.

[Rune]

Or these ppl were the 1st to be infected, I thought it could have been the purity of the strain that gives you cool powers after death. (I bags behemoth at the least, if not I wanna be the tatttooed one)

[nikvoodoo]

Have I missed anything?

That is indeed an alarming level of intelligence in your enemy.

The only thing I can think of quickly that you missed is Self Preservation. For example: the zombie that jumps behind the desk, and Ink and Tommy playing possum after being shot.